Joseph Ephraim is Christianity

Just The Facts said:

Hi keras



Actually that is not correct. The Jews in Modern Israel wanted to call their Nation Judea but America would only agree to support them if they called it Israel.

The powers that be in America ie: George Bush have been planning the "Rebirth" of the Nation of Israel since 1825.

I know what you are thinking George Bush what is he on about now.

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This is George Bush The Great Great Great Uncle of the President George Bush and in 1848 he published his book "Valley Of Vision The Dry Bones of Israel Revived: In it he states “the thralldom and oppression which has so long ground them (the Jews) to the dust,” and he called for “elevating” the Jews “to a rank of honorable repute among the nations of the earth” by restoring the Jews to the land of Israel where the bulk would be converted to Christianity. He openly stated that it was Americas destiny to do this and that they must control the political process in America to achieve this goal.

So the Jews calling their Nation Israel was the will of the Power elite of America not the Jews. You want to know who Controls Israel take a look and see.

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This is the Israelis Supreme Court Building with is Masonic All seeing Eye Pyramid 33 steps to the entrance.

Yes I know it is all just a conspiracy theory. This whole thing is just ridiculas right!!!! Right!!!!! It is just a coincidence that The messianic Symbols are all over America and Now Israel. I mean it is not like the Knights Templar and their descendants the Masons went to say a Holy War because they wanted to rule the World from Jerusalem.

I want to be clear I do not think this is the kingdom of the Beast or anything of the sort nor do I think that the beast from the Pit is a Mason blah blah blah.

I do think that Modern Israel is a direct result of a Group of People's creation of a doctrine and the fulfillment of that same doctrine. All based on a Covenant Theology that is just plain wrong. They created the doctrine with its claimed crucial event and then created the event.

Here we are almost 75 years after its creation and the Generation that saw it created is all dead and gone. So much for the Generation that sees these things will not pass away. I mean even people that were born the day it was founded are now 73 years old.

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No one on earth is older than 75?

keras said:

All of Gods people do have faith and obedience.

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True. Only those who do have faith and obedience in and to God and His Son are God's People.

keras said:

No one can be sure of their ancestry much beyond 10 generations. But be assured that God does. He knows where the 10 Northern Tribes of the House of Israel went to. Also where the genuine people of the House of Judah are; not many, if any are Israelis.

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Through ancestral genetic ubiquity, their ancestry is present in the entire human race. Ancestry does not identify God's People.

Only faith and obedience identify "...them that are His."

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Tim



Never said that, I said the Generation that seen Israel being formed is dead and gone. There may be a few stragglers who were born when it happened but for the most part 97% gone. Only 3% of Israelis population is over 70. Besides a generation is not someone life span that is usually three generations. There is Me, I am a generation, my Children, they are a generation, and my Grand children they are a generation.

When this whole doctrine of Israel being reborn was a sign started to really become popular in the 50's and 60's EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE who wrote and talked about it said a generation was 30 to 40 years which is about right. However in a desperate attempt to cling on to this false doctrine those who espouse this doctrine have turned a generation into the oldest possible living person even if it is the last person who was alive at the time. It is just nonsense it is a failed doctrine and proven itself as such

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That is the wrong interpretation. It was not a set number of years. It means all have died. It is not even 30 or 70. That is date setting. It means that any who were alive at the time, not just a handful of people who planted the fig tree.

Just The Facts said:

HI Tim

It is not an interpretation. Its not date setting. It is just what it says. It says

[34] Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Not Truly I say if there will still be one person left alive till all these things will take place.

So the generation that sees these things. You have to take a HUGE leap of faith to say the Fig tree comparison means the rebirth of Israel to start with. So the question is what does Generation mean. It means from Father to Son one generation about 30 years. Well that is how the word translates the other 137 times it is used.

Still I consider my self a fair person I will give you the life of every single person that was alive. Right now it is less than 3% of the population. And they are dropping off quickly.

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The same promise was given at the birth of Jesus, and only two humans were still alive. As long as one person is still alive, it will not be a fail. Until then, one is only grasping at arguments.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Tim

What promise are you referring to at Jesus Birth?

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The promise that a Messiah would come at the end of 62 weeks of 7 years. Many use the wrong decree to make it fit perfectly, but time was up and still no Messiah, yet 2 prophets remained around after that generation was gone, and they saw the baby Jesus at birth. 483 years from the time of the first year of Cyrus found in Ezra 1. 559BC minus 483 is 76BC. That means any one younger than 70 had given up hope. In fact by the time the Herods came on the scene, most had forgotten. Herod was put off guard when the kings from the east were looking for the Messiah. There were 2 people waiting to see Jesus, and that was it.

I know that no one today looks at things that way. They are set on the wrong decree and the exact time frames to prove their own eschatological view.

Just The Facts said:

Hi Tim

Sorry but that Chapter is not about Jesus being born. Jesus is not the Prince that comes after 7 weeks. Adding the 7 weeks with the 62 weeks is not how the text reads in Hebrew. That was changed by Jerome in the Fourth Century.

The Prince that comes after 7 weeks is Joshua First Priest King of the Second Tempe Era. That tradition went until 48BC when the last was removed by Rome. Judea got a King. Herod was King and the Priest was no longer King, Exactly 490 years after Cyrus's decree. There was 62 weeks / 483 years of Priest Kings in troubled times. They were cut off and had nothing as Jesus told them. Daniel 9 is about the punishment of the Jews for their violation of the covenant made with God at Sinai.

Please see here

Daniel 9: | Christian Forums

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Is your point God's Word ceased to exist because of Jerome?

The promise was that the Messiah the Prince would come. Not sure how this is a false doctrine.

Just The Facts said:

Hello All

This is another long one but it is mostly verses to back up the Point being made.

Dispensationalist Theology is not wrong they just do not see how God fulfilled his promise.

Covenant theologist are not wrong they just do not understand how God fulfilled his Promise.

What did Jesus mean by this

[24] He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus did not say this by accident he did not say the House of Israel by accident. Covenant Theologist would have us believe this just means Jesus was sent to Jewish sinners. That is ridiculous, Jesus knew exactly what he was saying. He knew full well the House of Israel is not The House of Judah. The House of Israel had been lost for over 700 years at this point scattered among the nations. Jesus is saying he has not come for the House of Judah because he knows they will reject him. He is coming for the (by Jesus' time) millions of descendants of the House of Israel.

Here again he confirms this the other Nation is the House of Israel.

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So it will be taken away from the nation of Judea. Who is the only other Nation God has a covenant with and promised salvation to? The nation of Israel which disappeared in 715 BC and which Jesus’ brother James tells us are scattered abroad.

1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

First let us look at How God says he will save the House of Jacob / Joseph / Israel.

Isaiah 27: 6: He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. ……………….8: In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind. 9: By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin;.

So they TAKE ROOT and Fill The World with Fruit and are saved by Fruit that takes away sins….does that sound a bit familiar.

So who is the ROOT they take?

Rv:5:5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

Isa:11:10 In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious.

Now look at how Christians are saved 99% of the statements are about a tree(root) bringing forth fruit. I have posted every verse I could find to show the sheer magnitude of scriptural evidence to this point.

Mt:3:8: Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Mt:3:10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mt:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mt:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mt:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt:7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mt:12:33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Mt:13:8: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Mt:13:22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mt:13:23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mt:13:26: But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mt:21:34: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

Mt:21:41: They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mt:26:29: But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mk:4:7: And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

Mk:4:8: And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

Mk:4:19: And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Mk:4:20: And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Mk:4:28: For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Mk:4:29: But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Rom:1:13: Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Rom:6:21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Rom:6:22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom:7:4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom:8:23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Rom:11:16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom:16:5: Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Cor:14:14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Cor:15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Cor:15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cor:16:15: I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

2Cor:9:10: Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Gal:5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Eph:5:9: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Phil:1:11: Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phil:4:17: Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

Col:1:6: Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col:1:10: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

2Tm:2:6: The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

Ti:3:14: And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb:12:11: Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb:13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Jms:1:18: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jms:3:17: But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Jms:3:18: And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Jms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Jms:5:18: And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

2Pt:1:8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Mk:12:2: And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

Lk:3:8: Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Lk:3:9: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Lk:6:43: For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Lk:6:44: For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Lk:8:8: And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Lk:8:14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Lk:8:15: But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Lk:12:17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

Lk:12:18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

Lk:13:6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Lk:13:7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

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Here's more:


Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations (gôy). Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of many nations (gôy). And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you."

[Strongs Hebrew Dictionary H01471] gôy Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of {animals} or a flight of locusts: - {Gentile} {heathen} {nation} people.

Genesis 48:19 Young's Literal Translation
And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he (Manasseh) also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother (Ephraim) is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations (gôy);'

"The fulness of the nations" (in the Hebrew in which it was written) is a translation of the Hebrew words melô' (fullness), and gôy (Gentiles).

[Strongs Hebrew Dictionary H04393] melô' From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all {along} X all that is (there-) {in} {fill} (X that whereof . . . was) {full} {fulness} [hand-] {full} multitude.

In the KJV and most English translations, melô and gôy are translated as "a multitude of nations"

Hosea 1:10-11a
10 But still the number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea, which may not be measured or numbered; and in place of its being said to them, You are not my people, it will be said to them, You are the sons of the living God
11 And the children of Israel and the children of Judah will come together and take for themselves one head.

Romans 9
24 Even us, who were marked out by him, not only from the Jews, but from the Gentiles?
25 As he says in Hosea, They will be named my people who were not my people, and she will be loved who was not loved.
26 And in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there they will be named the sons of the living God.

Ephesians 2:19
"Now therefore all of you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God."

I don't believe it matters whether or not the descendants of the twelve tribes are in Scotland or Iran (some Jewish Rabbis believe they are all in Iran and are Muslims today). I don't believe it matters whether or not those who are in Christ through faith in Christ are genetic descendants of Jacob. Abraham was to become the father of many goyim, and through Ephraim/the house of Israel, so he has become. Joseph, father of Ephraim, is a type of Christ. From the beginning the seed of Abraham are those who are considered righteous through their faith in the Word of God. The first sin came to be committed as a result of unbelief of the Word of God ("you will surely die") and believing the lie ("you will not surely die").

In Ezekiel 37, the one stick for Joseph is for Ephraim, the northern kingdom - which retained the name of Israel. The reason being - Joseph completed the rejoining of the twelve brothers and their tribes (the twelve tribes of Israel) back in his day when they came to Egypt during the famine.

The other stick for Judah, the southern kingdom.

The prophecies for Judah and Ephraim are for the nation of Israel. 1948 fulfilled Israel as one nation again, not split into the two kingdoms of north and south.

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Differently, Christians are a new creation in Christ, from all the tribes, nations, people, tongues upon the earth.

Douggg said:

The prophecies for Judah and Ephraim are for the nation of Israel. 1948 fulfilled Israel as one nation again, not split into the two kingdoms of north and south.

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Ezekiel 37:16 Take one stick and write on it: Judah and the Israelites associated with him. [They are Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi]
Then take another stick and write on it: Joseph, the leader Ephraim and all the other Israelite tribes.

It is obvious to anyone without wrong fixed beliefs and extreme bias, that the 12 tribes have NOT yet re-united.
The Jews themselves, as you very well know, are actively trying to get the lost ten tribes to come to Israel now.
But they think anyone who converts to Judaism or even claims to be Jewish, must be of the lost tribes. Which is a contradiction, as the 10 tribes are not Jewish.

The idea they have rejoined is foolishness and is in no way a fulfilment of Ezekiel 37:15-26

keras said:

It is obvious to anyone without wrong fixed beliefs and extreme bias, that the 12 tribes have NOT yet re-united.
The Jews themselves, as you very well know, are actively trying to get the lost ten tribes to come to Israel now.
But they think anyone who converts to Judaism or even claims to be Jewish, must be of the lost tribes. Which is a contradiction, as the 10 tribes are not Jewish.

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It is not the point of sll the persons of the twelve tribes having reunitied yet, but of Israel no longer being divided into two nations. Israel over there is one nation, containing the territories of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom.

On the issue of the 12 tribes, from watching a Tovia Singer (countermissionary) video, I found out that the term Jew began being used as a universal tag for anyone of the 12 tribes, although technically a Jew is only from the tribe of Judah, back in the days of Mordecai, who was actually of the tribe of Benjamin, not Judah.

Ester 2:5 Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

At the messiah truth countermissionary site, the Jews there say that most of them do not know what tribe they belong to, and it will be the messiah who will let them know.

And the priests were of the tribe of Levi, not Judah.

Paul, himself, was not of the tribe of Judah, but Benjamin - which made Paul an "Israelite" in his own words.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Douggg said:

It is not the point of sll the persons of the twelve tribes having reunitied yet, but of Israel no longer being divided into two nations. Israel over there is one nation, containing the territories of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom.

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Yes, they represent the House of Judah.
And they do not occupy the territories which the original tribes had. The West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia hold large areas.
That they are not yet rejoined with the House of Israel, is evident from many aspects; Population, all the holy Land and the Blessings promised.

Douggg said:

Paul, himself, was not of the tribe of Judah, but Benjamin - which made Paul an "Israelite" in his own words.

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Many times in scripture, we are told about the two Houses; Judah and Israel. Judah consists of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi. Some of the other tribes did and are still joining Judah; they become Jews.
The House of Israel is hidden to our knowledge, but we know who they are by the fact of their accepting Christianity; the ones Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24

I have posted many times the fate of Jewish Israel, they face Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Your inability to understand the end times plan of God, is attributable to your adherence to false theories.