Rv20: Ez 37-38

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi

Ezekiel 37 & 38 and Revelation 20 are the same events.

Rev 20 is the short form of Ezekiel 37 and 38.

Let’s take a look

Rv 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rv 21:2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Isaiah describes it like this

Isa 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Rv:21:24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

There is the first resurrection in Rv 20 & 21 and Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven…..Now as we all know this is after Armageddon. WHICH IS NOT the battle of Gog and Magog because Rv:20 is a running time line and it tells us Gog is after the 1,000 years of peace.

Below is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37: 12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD

I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over and over and over again OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. You can spiritualize this all you want and say no no no no this is a spiritual grave they are coming out of …………….….God is very, very, very, very clear OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. God is so adamant he says it 4 times in two verses.

Ezekiel 37:26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28: And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

These verses are clearly the First resurrection and as we mover through these parallel chapters of RV: and Ezekiel you will see there can be no doubt they are the same events.

Rev 20: 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So what we have is those of the first resurrection living in Jerusalem for 1000 years in Peace after Jesus RESTORES the land from the devastation of Armageddon and the plagues of Rv: chapters 7-16.

Rev 20: 7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Now Revelation Tells us that at the end of the 1000 years Gog will gather to come down on the city of the Saints.

So does Ezekiel also this is what happens next

Ezekiel 38: 2: Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3: And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:………………………………………….8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel above also notes the time spoken of in Revelation where people of all Tribes and Nations are gathered and reign with Jesus in Jerusalem. Directly referring to the area as the land restored from war. Where the people live in Peace…………….that is the 1000 years of peace.

Ezek:38:11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

This is not modern Israel. Once again I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over again Without walls dwelling safely in Peace. Does anyone really believe that is modern Israel. Modern Israel has more walls then any other nation . Living in Peace ......I guess if having rockets falling on you and having a major war or conflict every 10 years is living safely and dwelling in peace.

Ezekiel goes on to say this

14: Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15: And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Now some would try and say that no this is just about Israel because it says my people Israel. But Paul is very clear in more than one place ……we become sons of Abraham and Heirs to the promise we become part of Israel as we are grafted into Israel.

Now Revelation 20 States the following

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20 Says that fire will come down from Heaven and devour Gog and his armies.

So does Ezekiel also say this same thing…………Of course it does they are the same events.

Ezekiel 38:2: And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

There is a false teaching that the formation of modern Israel is Ezekiel 37 fulfilled. IT IS NOT………….Ezekiel 37 is the First resurrection. What this false belief does that is sooooo dangerous is it makes one expect the wrong prophetic event to happen next.

If a person believes that Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in the current gathering of the Jews in modern Israel …………..then by default that person MUST also believe that if nations come against Modern Israel God will destroy them with fire from heaven. This is a give in because the two events are linked in Ezekiel 37 and 38…………..

This is the exact event that the AC will use to deceive the world that he is God. Look at Rev

13: 13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

As we can plainly see it is this Great Wonder of Fire from Heaven that deceives mankind into believing he The Beast is God / Jesus

Paul also tells us this Great Wonder will Happen AT HIS ARRIVAL ……………..not after many years of him as a Political leader but at his Arrival.

[9] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,

Can you see Satan’s Deception in action………can you see his devious plan to deceive mankind in the works………………….Do not be fooled Ezekiel 37 is the First Resurrection not the gathering of the Jews into modern Israel. Such false Doctrine has been introduced by Satan to lead mankind to destruction and ruin. Do not be fooled

keras · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Below is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37:1-14 is an allegory of how the people from the House of Israel, who are now the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language and are the ones that Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24
WE were the dry bones, scattered among the nations and the Gospel was preached to us and we accepted it. Isaiah 45:4-6....we did not know the Lord...

The Lord has put His Spirit into us; we have come to life in the Spirit and soon we will go to live in all of the holy Land; our inheritance. Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Ezekiel 38 and 39, describe an attack on the new Christian nation of Beulah, which the Lord will wipe out as He fulfils His Promise to protect us. Joel 2:20

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Keras

keras said:
Ezekiel 38 and 39, describe an attack on the new Christian nation of Beulah, which the Lord will wipe out as He fulfils His Promise to protect us. Joel 2:20

I disagree it is not an allegory it should be taken literally. From the graves means from the graves.

So you believe this nation Beulah will happen before or after the first resurrection?

sovereigngrace · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi

Ezekiel 37 & 38 and Revelation 20 are the same events.

Rev 20 is the short form of Ezekiel 37 and 38.

Let’s take a look

Rv 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rv 21:2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Isaiah describes it like this

Isa 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Rv:21:24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

There is the first resurrection in Rv 20 & 21 and Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven…..Now as we all know this is after Armageddon. WHICH IS NOT the battle of Gog and Magog because Rv:20 is a running time line and it tells us Gog is after the 1,000 years of peace.

Below is the first resurrection in Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37: 12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD

I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over and over and over again OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. You can spiritualize this all you want and say no no no no this is a spiritual grave they are coming out of …………….….God is very, very, very, very clear OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. God is so adamant he says it 4 times in two verses.

Ezekiel 37:26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28: And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

These verses are clearly the First resurrection and as we mover through these parallel chapters of RV: and Ezekiel you will see there can be no doubt they are the same events.

Rev 20: 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So what we have is those of the first resurrection living in Jerusalem for 1000 years in Peace after Jesus RESTORES the land from the devastation of Armageddon and the plagues of Rv: chapters 7-16.

Rev 20: 7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Now Revelation Tells us that at the end of the 1000 years Gog will gather to come down on the city of the Saints.

So does Ezekiel also this is what happens next

Ezekiel 38: 2: Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3: And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:………………………………………….8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel above also notes the time spoken of in Revelation where people of all Tribes and Nations are gathered and reign with Jesus in Jerusalem. Directly referring to the area as the land restored from war. Where the people live in Peace…………….that is the 1000 years of peace.

Ezek:38:11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

This is not modern Israel. Once again I love how God knows the false doctrine that will be introduced. So he says over and over again Without walls dwelling safely in Peace. Does anyone really believe that is modern Israel. Modern Israel has more walls then any other nation . Living in Peace ......I guess if having rockets falling on you and having a major war or conflict every 10 years is living safely and dwelling in peace.

Ezekiel goes on to say this

14: Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15: And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Now some would try and say that no this is just about Israel because it says my people Israel. But Paul is very clear in more than one place ……we become sons of Abraham and Heirs to the promise we become part of Israel as we are grafted into Israel.

Now Revelation 20 States the following

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20 Says that fire will come down from Heaven and devour Gog and his armies.

So does Ezekiel also say this same thing…………Of course it does they are the same events.

Ezekiel 38:2: And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

There is a false teaching that the formation of modern Israel is Ezekiel 37 fulfilled. IT IS NOT………….Ezekiel 37 is the First resurrection. What this false belief does that is sooooo dangerous is it makes one expect the wrong prophetic event to happen next.

If a person believes that Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in the current gathering of the Jews in modern Israel …………..then by default that person MUST also believe that if nations come against Modern Israel God will destroy them with fire from heaven. This is a give in because the two events are linked in Ezekiel 37 and 38…………..

This is the exact event that the AC will use to deceive the world that he is God. Look at Rev

13: 13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

As we can plainly see it is this Great Wonder of Fire from Heaven that deceives mankind into believing he The Beast is God / Jesus

Paul also tells us this Great Wonder will Happen AT HIS ARRIVAL ……………..not after many years of him as a Political leader but at his Arrival.

[9] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,

Can you see Satan’s Deception in action………can you see his devious plan to deceive mankind in the works………………….Do not be fooled Ezekiel 37 is the First Resurrection not the gathering of the Jews into modern Israel. Such false Doctrine has been introduced by Satan to lead mankind to destruction and ruin. Do not be fooled

There is so much error in this, it is hard to know where to start. While you make a big bold sweeping statement in your title, when one looks through your post there is zero supporting evidence.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Ezekiel 37 & 38 and Revelation 20? Where does Ezekiel 37 & 38 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints, the destruction of the wicked in total, the destruction of the old earth and heavens and the replacement with the new, the resurrection of the wicked and “Great White Throne Judgement of sinners” 1,000 years after the judgement of the righteous?

The resurrection in view in these passages was actually a spiritual resurrection of Israel. The fact that the resurrection in view occurs as a result of the prophet Ezekiel speaking to these bones is proof this is not the physical resurrection at the end. This is an amazing directive. But with the directive came a promise. This is what God does.

TribulationSigns · Oct 9, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
There is so much error in this, it is hard to know where to start.

It is called dishonestly twisting, reinterpreting, or manipulating scripture any way they choose for their own self-serving purposes. This is deceit, a deliberate ungodly deceptive practice that I am seeing a lot of time here since I first came on this forum.

sovereigngrace · Oct 9, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
It is called dishonestly twisting, reinterpreting, or manipulating scripture any way they choose for their own self-serving purposes. This is deceit, a deliberate ungodly deceptive practice that I am seeing a lot of time since I came on this forum.

This is a classic example of reading one's own ideas into Scripture.

Leavened yet Adopted · Oct 9, 2021

I wouldn't want to add or subtract from the book of Revelation, not because i fear loosing my salvation, but i may deceive/confuse others on endtimes.

The bible warns us not to discern the times and seasons of Christ's return, Matthew 24:36, Acts 1:7, 1 Thessalonians 5:1,

I'd rather focus on Colossians 3:2, Galatians 4:26 when worshipping God in spirit and truth. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Sov

sovereigngrace said:
There is so much error in this, it is hard to know where to start. While you make a big bold sweeping statement in your title, when one looks through your post there is zero supporting evidence.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Ezekiel 37 & 38 and Revelation 20? Where does Ezekiel 37 & 38 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints,

The little bit of your belief you show is a classic example of how Amills just twist the plain words of God to mean what every they need it to mean to back their doctrine

Ah at it again Sov, asking people to produce what you know does not exist. So you can then say "see you have nothing" let me just say Bahahahahahahahahah...... As you are well aware not one OT prophet directly names the 1,000 year period they discuss it like in Isaiah 2: but do not call it that. Revelation is just that a revealing, an further deeper explanation of the OT prophecies. Daniels Fourth Beast is explained further etc etc. Yes I know you believe it is all spiritual and already happened. Everyone has the right to be wrong as amill doctrine so amazingly demonstrates.

Not interested in discussing this topic with amill people there is no basis for discussion. It is impossible to discuss any Scriptural topic with amill because at any given whim you just change the meaning of what is said to fit your doctrine by a spiritualization of the plain words or referencing some un related verse or just taking everything out of context. Amill randomly reassign meaning to various symbols in prophecy often the same symbol can mean one thing in one spot, when it fits the doctrine, and then the opposite in another spot, for the exact same symbol.

You in particular have a habit of dismissing or just ignoring what the other person posts, then insult them personally by suggesting they are incoherent or some other personal attack and then claim they posted no supporting scripture even though they have. You have done just that here again and I am not interested in playing your game. I have given a detailed verse for verse and event for event comparison between the two books both starting with a resurrection of the dead and have Gog and Magog in the middle. The Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it. You disagree no big surprise, it is noted and ignored. As for Judgement day I did not say I was talking about Ez 39 which clearly has the Judgment of the Nations.

The purpose of this thread was to show that Gog magog in Rev 20 is the same Gog Magog in Ez 38: I have done this. As just stated the Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it.

Justin Martyr said something that I believe to be 100% true and expresses exactly how I feel and what I believe.

"For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

So as I stated earlier there is absolutely no basis for a discussion between us. Thank you for showing everyone you point of view.

sovereigngrace · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Sov

Ah at it again Sov, asking people to produce what you know does not exist. So you can then say "see you have nothing" let me just say Bahahahahahahahahah......As you are well aware not one OT prophet directly names the 1,000 year period they discuss it like in Isaiah 2: but do not call it that. Revelation is just that a revealing, an explanation of the OT prophecies. Daniels Fourth Beast is explained further etc etc. Yes I know you believe it is all spiritual and already happened. Everyone has the right to be wrong as amill doctrine so amazingly demonstrates.

Not interested in discussing this topic with amill people there is no basis for discussion. It is impossible to discuss any Scriptural topic with amill because at any given whim you just change the meaning of what is said to fit your doctrine by a spiritualization of the plain words or referencing some un related verse or just taking everything out of context. Amill randomly reassign meaning to various symbols in prophecy often the same symbol can mean one thing in one spot, when it fits the doctrine, and then the opposite in another spot, for the exact same symbol.

You in particular have a habit of dismissing or just ignoring what the other person posts, then insult them personally by suggesting they are incoherent or some other personal attack and then claim they posted no supporting scripture even though they have. You have done just that here again and I am not interested in playing your game. I have given a detailed verse for verse and event for event comparison between the two books both starting with a resurrection of the dead and have Gog and Magog in the middle. The Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it. You disagree no big surprise, it is noted and ignored. As for Judgement day I did not say I was talking about Ez 39 which clearly has the Judgment of the Nations.

The purpose of this thread was to show that Gog magog in Rev 20 is the same Gog Magog in Ez 38: I have done this. As just stated the Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it.

Justin Martyr said something that I believe to be 100% true and expresses exactly how I feel and what I believe.

"For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

So as I stated earlier there is absolutely no basis for a discussion between us. Thank you for showing everyone you point of view.

By your own admission, you have nothing. You cannot just cherry-pick Scripture and force a meaning on it that suits your beliefs. This is so wrong on so many fronts. You have sidestepped my simple straightforward requests and have totally avoided my strong rebuttal. When someone challenges your inconsistent hermeneutics you attack with ad hominem. That shows the weakness of your position.

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Trib

TribulationSigns said:
It is called dishonestly twisting, reinterpreting, or manipulating scripture any way they choose for their own self-serving purposes.

Wow what a surprise another amill pot calling the kettle black. I twisted nothing and am stating quite plainly that if God says it is from the grave then it is from the grave. It is amill doctrine that twist scripture and has since it beginnings in the second century AD.

Am I to understand that you are saying I am deliberately twisting scripture for my own benefit. Perhaps you should drag me in the street accuse me of Heresy and burn me alive. That is historically what Amills do best.

The two of you are priceless the way you move from thread to thread insulting and personally attacking those who do not see it your way. It is really sad.

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Bahahahahaha you have done exactly what I said you would do. Run along and play your childish games elsewhere.

I said you would do this

Ah at it again Sov, asking people to produce what you know does not exist. So you can then say "see you have nothing" let me just say Bahahahahahahahahah

sovereigngrace said:
By your own admission, you have nothing. You cannot just cherry-pick Scripture and force a meaning on it that suits your beliefs. This is so wrong on so many fronts. You have sidestepped my simple straightforward requests and have totally avoided my strong rebuttal. When someone challenges your inconsistent hermeneutics you attack with ad hominem. That shows the weakness of your position.

You are sooooo predictable it would be funny if it were not so so so sad.

sovereigngrace · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Keras

I disagree it is not an allegory it should be taken literally. From the graves means from the graves.

So you believe this nation Beulah will happen before or after the first resurrection?

Is there a resurrection in the New Testament, pertaining to the believer, which precedes the physical resurrection, which releases a man from the punishment of the second death (eternal wrath)? If so, what is it?

Timtofly · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hi Sov

The little bit of your belief you show is a classic example of how Amills just twist the plain words of God to mean what every they need it to mean to back their doctrine

Ah at it again Sov, asking people to produce what you know does not exist. So you can then say "see you have nothing" let me just say Bahahahahahahahahah...... As you are well aware not one OT prophet directly names the 1,000 year period they discuss it like in Isaiah 2: but do not call it that. Revelation is just that a revealing, an further deeper explanation of the OT prophecies. Daniels Fourth Beast is explained further etc etc. Yes I know you believe it is all spiritual and already happened. Everyone has the right to be wrong as amill doctrine so amazingly demonstrates.

Not interested in discussing this topic with amill people there is no basis for discussion. It is impossible to discuss any Scriptural topic with amill because at any given whim you just change the meaning of what is said to fit your doctrine by a spiritualization of the plain words or referencing some un related verse or just taking everything out of context. Amill randomly reassign meaning to various symbols in prophecy often the same symbol can mean one thing in one spot, when it fits the doctrine, and then the opposite in another spot, for the exact same symbol.

You in particular have a habit of dismissing or just ignoring what the other person posts, then insult them personally by suggesting they are incoherent or some other personal attack and then claim they posted no supporting scripture even though they have. You have done just that here again and I am not interested in playing your game. I have given a detailed verse for verse and event for event comparison between the two books both starting with a resurrection of the dead and have Gog and Magog in the middle. The Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it. You disagree no big surprise, it is noted and ignored. As for Judgement day I did not say I was talking about Ez 39 which clearly has the Judgment of the Nations.

The purpose of this thread was to show that Gog magog in Rev 20 is the same Gog Magog in Ez 38: I have done this. As just stated the Amill doctrine can not see this because a strong delusion has come over it.

Justin Martyr said something that I believe to be 100% true and expresses exactly how I feel and what I believe.

"For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

So as I stated earlier there is absolutely no basis for a discussion between us. Thank you for showing everyone you point of view.

Justin Martyr would have been accused of trolling and some would ask that he be banned.

keras · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
I disagree it is not an allegory it should be taken literally. From the graves means from the graves.

So you believe this nation Beulah will happen before or after the first resurrection?

Ezekiel 37:1-14 is a Spiritual allegory. Their 'graves' is metaphorical for our current state of being cut off from direct contact with God.
Proved by verse 14, where the Lord imparts His Spirit into those people.
They then go to live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:25

Before Jesus Returns, as they will elect their own leader. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Tim

Timtofly said:
Justin Martyr would have been accused of trolling and some would ask that he be banned.

Well that is exactly what happened he was banned from addressing the Emperor or Senate and put to death in the Colosseum for his Second defense of the Truth. Like his first defense his second defense was read in the Senate after being accused by the philosopher Crescens of atheism in front of the Senate. He was then Charged with failure to worship the Emperor, Justin appeared before The Prefect of Rome was found guilty and he and five of his students had their heads cut off and their body burned .

[4] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

How sad is it for Christianity and what a perfect statement on the state of Christianity today. Justin would be banned and ridiculed by the vast majority of people in this forum. A Saint of the early rain who refused to worship the Beast or its Image had his head cut off in the Forum and his body burnt would be ridiculed and banned. (The Romans saw it as the perfect way to deny them the resurrection they so believed in) Now he sits and waits and cries aloud.

[9]When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; [10] they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"[11] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Yes the days are coming when those who are now In Power ie:the majority in belief, Will again put to death the few who have the nerve to tell them, that all they believe is a lie, and that they are worshipping the Beast, even though they do not know it. They will ridicule those who say these things, they will publicly admonish them, call them liars, call them evil men who are only out for their own gain. When their power reaches its height they will, believing they are emerging from the darkness....... yet falling deeper into the darkness................ they will be bold, and publicly execute them. Blessed is he that makes it to 1335 days. All Glory, Honour and Power belongs to God and To The Lamb that was Slain he is the Prince of Peace and he will say get away from me you evil doers I know you not.

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Keras

keras said:
Ezekiel 37:1-14 is a Spiritual allegory. Their 'graves' is metaphorical for our current state of being cut off from direct contact with God.
Proved by verse 14, where the Lord imparts His Spirit into those people.
They then go to live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:25

Before Jesus Returns, as they will elect their own leader. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

Why? Where does Ezekiel say it is an analogy

[9] Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."

It says they are dead slain, not lost, not without God's spirit, but Slain

slain
[ sleyn ]
verb
past participle of slay.

slay
/slā/
verb

1 kill (a person or animal) in a violent way.

I am Sorry Keras but you are just wrong about this this is the first resurrection of the Slain in God.

[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne

4:Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Douggg · Oct 9, 2021

Just The Facts said:
.Do not be fooled Ezekiel 37 is the First Resurrection not the gathering of the Jews into modern Israel. Such false Doctrine has been introduced by Satan to lead mankind to destruction and ruin. Do not be fooled

Ezekiel 37 is an allegory. Israel a nation again in 1948. Not as two nations of Judah and Ephraim, but one nation.

The first resurrection of the millennium is for the martyred great tribulation saints (from all nations, not just Israel), for not worshiping the beast, nor his image, nor taking his mark.

You are having the first resurrection of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 as just being for Israel - claiming it is the resurrection of Israel of Ezekiel 37. That's the fallacy of your thinking.

The resurrection of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 is an allegory for Israel becoming a nation again.

Just The Facts · Oct 9, 2021

Hi Douggg

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 37 is an allegory. Israel a nation again in 1948. Not as two nations of Judah and Ephraim, but one nation.

The first resurrection of the millennium is for the martyred great tribulation saints (from all nations, not just Israel), for not worshiping the beast, nor his image, nor taking his mark.

You are having the first resurrection of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 as just being for Israel - claiming it is the resurrection of Israel of Ezekiel 37. That's the fallacy of your thinking.

The resurrection of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 is an allegory for Israel becoming a nation again.

Ya no it isn't........... it is the first resurrection. You refuse to accept that the House of Israel is now many nations people and tongues. That is your first error. An even bigger error is believing the House of Judah (IE:modern Israel but not in truth or righteousness) is the House of Israel it is not. Here is what God thinks of the Jews who take the name of Israel

[1] Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came forth from the loins of Judah; who swear by the name of the LORD, and confess the God of Israel, but not in truth or righteousness.

Here is who Jacob gave his Name Israel to.

[16] the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and in them let my name be perpetuated, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." [17] When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of E'phraim, it displeased him; and he took his father's hand, to remove it from E'phraim's head to Manas'seh's head. [18] And Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father; for this one is the first-born; put your right hand upon his head." [19] But his father refused, and said, "I know, my son, I know; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; nevertheless his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."

So ya Israel is a multitude of Nations peoples and Tongues.

Second you claim analogy.....where does Ezekiel say this........... he does not................. he says they are SLAIN and God is bringing them from their graves. Slain is not an analogy it is ,,,,,well it is killed in a violent way.

Finally you think that the resurrection mentioned in Rv: 20:4 only includes NT Saints and no OT Prophets and Saints, ie the good. This is an error. Well I assume by what you have said you believe this. Even if Rv 20 is only talking about NT saints as you believe it is still the same event as Daniel 12: and 1 Cor Mk 14:14 Jn 5: there is only two resurrections the good to life and the evil to the second death this truth is very clear in Scripture.

[1] "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt ..............................................[11] And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [12] Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. [13] But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

[52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

[14] and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, [27] and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. [28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

See only two.....All the good at the start and at the end all the evil.

So yes Ez 37 is the First resurrection.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2021

Just The Facts said:
inally you think that the resurrection mentioned in Rv: 20:4 only includes NT Saints and no OT Prophets and Saints, ie the good.

No, that is not what I wrote.

I wrote that the ones taking part in the first resurrection of the millennium are the martyred great tribulation saints, from all nations, not just Israel.

The rapture is a different event.

Just The Facts · Oct 10, 2021

Hi Doug

Douggg said:
I wrote that the ones taking part in the first resurrection of the millennium are the martyred great tribulation saints, from all nations, not just Israel.

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing here. Who is your mind is Israel today?

Rv20: Ez 37-38

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