Predestination/"Free Will"

Ragman · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 10:06 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #178

 Interesting point here, Mandy. Really might be a whole new thread, but just to get a bit more specific, it was THE man who rebelled knowingly, while the woman was deceived. Yet both tasted the fruit of expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:17 and I Timothy 2:14).

It is a good point!  For that matter is judgement meant to be punitive (punishment), or is it meant to be healing and purifying?

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 05:49 AM Ragman said this in Post #179

Woody:

I can do more than assert all men died and were reconciled in Christ I can quote it: 

Ragman, I understand that you think that you have a correct interpretation of that scripture.  Yet, I can assure you that you do not.  Please address this directly:

Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 06:01 AM Ragman said this in Post #180

Woody:

It does not satisfy God's perfect justice to destroy us all.  Even if one were to accept your view of justice, which I do not, one cannot separate it from that God is loving.  To love, at it's most basic level, means that one will do good for another.  It is not good to destroy another.  It is not loving to destroy another and not attempt to help them.  Remember the good Samaritan?  The Father in the prodigal Son who speaks to us of God the Father? Man did fall, he does not "deserve" heaven.  But for the record he didn't deserve to be created, but He was.  And now, God being true to His own nature which is holy love, will seek to do good for every man, woman and child.  How can you by any stretch arrive that to create someone for hell is loving and doing good for them? 

 

Ragman, I am beginning to think again that you are a Universalist.  And, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you think that you do no deserve to be created.  It is one of the most ungrateful things I have heard someone who professes to be a disciple of Christ say in some time.

"God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions."

Let me have your "feeling" about this:

        "Now see that I, even I, am He,
        And there is no God besides Me;
        I kill and I make alive;
        I wound and I heal;
        Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
        For I raise My hand to heaven,
        And say, "As I live forever,
        If I whet My glittering sword,
        And My hand takes hold on judgment,
        I will render vengeance to My enemies,
        And repay those who hate Me.
        I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
        And My sword shall devour flesh,
        With the blood of the slain and the captives,
        From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."'

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S.  Whether you claim to believe the governmental theory or not because you claim to have your own "private" interpretation of scripture let me assure that your beliefs match nearly perfectly with that error.

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 09:44 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #174

However, with Tyre and Sidon, only God can see the heart. If a man is never presented with Jesus Christ, who can say how that man will react? Only God can. That's what I mean by not knowing how God will judge them. Unless you don't believe what Jesus said about what would happen AFTER His resurrection (Tyre and Sidon already being 'judged' in your structure, it seems):

 "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men unto me."

 Did He? Will He?

You are reading into that verse your belief that the Lord desires to save all men.  The problem you have is that 1 Ti 2:1-4 simply doesn't get you where you want to be.

The following is PART 1 of a 2 part answer:

In the FIRST place, it is an important point to remember here: The Bible was not written in English. It was written in Greek. As, of course, was this passage:

oJ;ß pavntaß ajnqrwvpouß qevlei swqh'nai kai; eijß ejpivgnwsin ajlhqeivaß ejlqei'n.

As Strong's Interlinear commentary explains,

Original Word paß Transliterated Word Pas
Definition:

[*]individually -- each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
[*]collectively -- some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

I maintain that the Bible is Infallible. By that, I mean that no passage of Scripture is contradictory to, or inconsistent with, any other passage.

Therefore, I hold with Strong, that the sense of the Greek pavntaß used here is used in the sense of the collective -- some of all types, the common and general sense in which this term is used, and not the rarer "each and every individual" sense.

As Custance has observed,

We are, therefore, exhorted to pray for all men. And yet we know from John 17:9 that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself deliberately refrained from praying for all men, "I pray for them [the chosen few]: I pray not for the world but for them You have given Me." It is of course perfectly true that the Lord Jesus knew who were to be the sheep of his flock even before they became part of his inner circle of disciples, and He also knew the spiritual battle which lay ahead for them all. It might therefore be argued that He prayed for them specifically, and not for the world, for this very reason. But are we being called upon to engage our prayer life on behalf of all men indiscriminately? Would this not so dilute our prayers as to be meaningless and ineffective? To pray for everyone is really to pray for nobody.

It seems more likely that the phrase "for all men" should be translated more selectively to read "for all sorts of men." Such a translation is perfectly consonant with the original Greek, for the word all frequently has the less inclusive meaning of "all kinds of," or "all manner of." The simple form pas is translated "all manner of" in the following places, all of which provide a more precise definition of its meaning:

Matthew 4:23 --"all manner of disease"
Matthew 5:11 --"all manner of evil"
Matthew 10:1 --"all manner of sickness"
Luke 11:42 --"all manner of herbs"
Acts 10:12 --"all manner of four-footed beasts"
Romans 7:8 --"all manner of concupiscence"
1 Peter 1:15 --"all manner of conversation"
Revelation 21:19 --"all manner of precious stone"

And as a vastly better Greek scholar than you or I (Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo) has observed:

THE LIMITS OF GOD'S PLAN FOR HUMAN SALVATION -- Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He "will have all men to be saved," although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, "Who will have all men to be saved," as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished. And it was of prayer to God that the apostle was speaking when he used this expression. And on the same principle we interpret the expression in the Gospel: "The true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world:" not that there is no man who is not enlightened, but that no man is enlightened except by Him. Or, it is said, "Who will have all men to be saved;" not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by "all men," the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances, -- kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, "For kings, and for all that are in authority," who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour," that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: "Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb." For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by "every herb," every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by "all men," every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if "He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth," as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.

Now, I say that this verse best agrees with Scripture if the Greek word pavntaß is here read (as is the most common and regular usage in Scripture), "all manner of sorts, without distinction".

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

The following is part 2 of a 2 part answer.

HOWEVER, in the SECOND Place, I am going to perform, what is for these threads, a pretty irregular form of Argumentation: I am going to FULLY extend to you what is called "the Principle of Logical Charity". That is, I am going to COMPLETELY GRANT your assumed reading of 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:10 as, "every single man without exception", rather than the more common "all manner and sorts". And I will show you how, IF your reading is entirely correct, it serves to reinforce the Calvinist position -- and utterly annihilates the diverse heretical readings which both the Wesleyans, and Universalists, would impose upon this verse. There will be no possible reading remaining, save the Calvinist.

The reason for this is simple: God is Trinity.

We shall now attend to the reading of 1 Timothy 2: 1- 6 --

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And to the reading of 1 Timothy 4: 5 - 11 --

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

Now, of whom does Paul speak, in both of these passages?
Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead... the eternally begotten Son of the Father.

But the Election is not established by the Son.
The Election is Established by the Father.
The Election is Given to the Son.

***John 6: 37 - 38 -- All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

When we speak then, of the Will of Jesus Christ towards men, who "will have" -- (the Greek term qelo having the sense, "will take delight in", as opposed energeo, "will efficaciously cause", found in Phillipians 2: 13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure") -- we speak necessarily of the PERMISSIVE Operation of God's Will. For the Son does not will EFFICACIOUSLY of Himself, but only does the Will of His Father.

***John 4: 34 -- Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
***John 5: 30 -- I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
***John 5: 37 - 40 -- And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The Son Will PERMISSIVELY Have all men who come to Him.
But the Election is not established by the Son.
The Election is Established by the Father.
The Election is Given to the Son.

The Son PERMISSIVELY offers Life to all who will come:

***Matthew 11: 28 - 30 -- Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

But only those in whom the Father has GIVEN to the Son and EFFICACIOUSLY brought to the Son (Phillipians 2: 13, energeo) ever Come to Him.

***John 6: 44 - 35 -- No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It was the Son's specific preaching of this Truth which drove many away from Him!!

***John 6: 60 - 66 -- Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

***John 8: 43 - 48 -- Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

The Son Will PERMISSIVELY Have all men who come to Him.
But the Election is not established by the Son.
The Election is Established by the Father.
The Election is Given to the Son.

***Ephesians 1: 3 - 5, 11 -- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh (energeo) all things after the counsel of his own will.

*** Thessalonians 2: 13 -- But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

The Son Will PERMISSIVELY (qelo) Have all men who come to Him.
The Father EFFICACIOUSLY CAUSES (energeo), both to Work and to Will, all whom He has Predestined, to come to the Son.

And those whom the Father has not EFFICACIOUSLY Predestined to come to the Son?

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

What God-pleasing Actions do they, who have not been EFFICACIOUSLY (energeo) brought to the Son, by the Father?

***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

None whatsoever. They never want to do anything pleasing to God, and so they never Will and God-pleasing actions -- even to reach out to the Son.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

Nikolai_42, I have even given you several verses which specifically demonstrate that the LORD has no intention of saving the entire human race.  Here they are again

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4).

"A Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offence, even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 2:8).

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (2 Peter 2:12).

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4).

"What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Rom. 11:7 R. V.).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9). Now surely it is patent to any impartial mind that this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath. To say that God "hath not appointed us to wrath" clearly implies that there are some whom He has "appointed to wrath," and were it not that the minds of so many professing Christians are so blinded by prejudice, they could not fail to clearly see this.

Furthermore, here is another verse (I have scads of them, far more than the 2 verses you have which some people seem to suggest that it is God's expressed will and desire to save all men):

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' He said to them, "An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' But he said, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

The crystal clear point that the Lord is making is that He has absolutely no desire to save the Tares.  Why is that?  Well the Lord Himself tells us that He intends to BURN THEM.  It is utterly impossible to declare that the Lord desires to save them.  This verse alone makes the translation of all men without exception in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 utterly impossible.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 12:09 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #153

So, rnmomof7, are you saying that you don't believe God does desire every single man to be saved? Not talking hard results here, but God's desire.

If it is God's desire that all men be saved they would be..
All that He desires to save He will.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 04:06 PM bird said this in Post #156

one saved by grace

 

bird

 

 

Mormon correct?

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 12:59 PM FineLinen said this in Post #154

Rnmomof7, there are 4664 verses of the Ancient Words containing all in them. In the following New Covenant words could you please identify which do not really mean all and which alls you would like to replace with the word some?

All does not mean all! "It depends what is, is" (W.J. Clinton)

So you believe that all the world went after Him then..you do not see that all as being a part of the whole?
All can mean all or it can mean a part or subset of a whole as demonstrated by the grek translation..

You need to be careful not to add your own words to scripture to bend them to your prefered meaning you posted

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand (has given Him control over everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually.

Click to expand...

The actual quote reads quite differently
_ Jhn 3:34__ For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
__
_ Jhn 3:35__ The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
__
_ Jhn 3:36__ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No one disagrees all thing are in Christ..

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 10:12 PM Mandy said this in Post #168

So PAul was only preaching to the "chosen"? I think not, if God picks and chooses who would be saved, there would be no need to go and preach the gospel to the world. Paul is urging these people to believe the gospel and receive Christ.

Paul ,like you and I , had no way to know who is an elect of God and who is not.
Spurgeon once commented that if the elect had a yellow stripe going down their back we would run around lifting shirts to find them.
But we do not know who God has chosen. What we do know is god is the 1st means of salvation and hr has chosen to have man assist in the work by the 2nd means of salvation, the foolishness of preaching (the gospel).

God ordained that second means..He restrains no man from coming to Him.So
we are to give every man an opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. All men will be without excuse on the day of Judgement.

The question is WHO will repent and believe..only the elect..
No one will be in hell that did not choose to be

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 10:54 PM Mandy said this in Post #175

Is God glorified by chosing someone to burn in hell? God created us for His good pleasure, do you really believe it pleases God to see people die seperated from Him? One cannot come to Christ without the Holy Spirit drawing him, (yet God has given us freewill to believe and receive the gift of eternal life), but one must also respond to the Holy Spirit. The Bible states that Jesus is the Savior of ALL men, because His work was sufficient to save all men, He took the sins of the WHOLE world. The Bible also states that God is NOT a respecter of persons, yet that is exactly what Calvinism teaches. If Calvinism is true, then God created evil, yet if He created it, than why would the wickedness of Noah's day grieve Him? Weren't they only doing what He caused them to do? The patterns, pictures and promises in the Old Testament offered salvation to all who would believe. This was unquestionably true of the Passover, Day of Atonement, and Levitical sacrifices. None were limited to an "elect." There never was such a group.
When Isaiah said, "All we like sheep have gone astray," surely by all he didn't mean some of Israel. Likewise, when he followed that statement with "but the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all," it could only mean that the coming Messiah would pay the penalty for the sins of all. All Israel was offered deliverance from the serpent's poison through looking in faith to the bronze serpent lifted up on the pole (Nm 21:8). And Christ made a direct connection between that event and His sacrifice for the sins of the world (Jn 3:14-15).  Was it only the "chosen one's" who were able to look upo the serpent?  No.
That the sacrifices were offered for all Israel did not guarantee that all Israel would be saved. Salvation was offered to all; it was up to each person to accept or reject it: "but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb 4:2). Tragically, salvation was both offered and available (as it is today through the gospel) to many who are now in hell through unbelief. God said, "I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me" (Is 1:2); "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (Rom 10:21). Stephen indicted the rabbis and all Israel with these words: "ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51).

Also John 3:16, shouldn't it read whosoever is chosen will not perish..., instead of whosoever believes will not perish..., if Calvinism was truth? 

We have freewill, God didn't create us as puppet.  He is glorified so much more through our choosing to love Him in return, then if we were puppets "chosen" to love Him.

 

CC, Jesus stated He is the way the truth and life, because only His sacrifice saves, only He is THE Savior.  In otherwords,  eternal life is only through Him.  It is only through faith in Christ that we can come to the Father, Jesus is not stating that no one can come to God unless He chose them. 

No man can come to me unless the father draw Him...

The question to be asked is who will repent and believe ? Why do some come and some not.
Men do have free will, a will corrupted and bound by the fall. Every man will do as he will..The reprobate will never choose to repent and believe

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 10:57 PM Mandy said this in Post #176

 

But you can't forget about God's perfect love for His creation, which is why He sent His Son to bear the sins of the world, even if only a fraction would be saved.  God is willing that NONE should perish but ALL would come to repentance....

Do you believe that God demands "double jeopardy"? God forgave all the sins on the cross but men have to pay for them again? Is God a liar or an Indian giver?

bird · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 04:14 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #188

Mormon correct?

 

mormon?  what gave you that idea?    i am not a mormon, never have been, don't plan on becoming one. 

 

but aside from that, why is it necessary that we label one another, other than it allows us to make assumptions as to what we believe to be true about god according to denominational distinctives.  can we not engage one another in discussion on the basis of our common desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of our lord and savior, jesus christ?

 

bird

bird · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 05:01 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #191

No man can come to me unless the father draw Him...

The question to be asked is who will repent and believe ? Why do some come and some not.
Men do have free will, a will corrupted and bound by the fall. Every man will do as he will..The reprobate will never choose to repent and believe

dear momo7,

 

what happens to the reprobate when they die?

 

bird

FineLinen · Apr 4, 2003

You need to be careful not to add your own words to scripture to bend them to your prefered meaning you posted quote:

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand (has given Him control over everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually.

FineLinen

My friend, what part is my words?

Are you famliar with the James Moffatt translation of the Holy Scriptures? And how about The New Testament translation by Monsignor Ronald Knox?

"The Father loves the Son and has given Him control over everything. He who believes in the Son has eternal life but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life--God's anger broods over him." James Moffatt

"....God's displeasure hangs over him continually." Monsig. Knox

My question to you was what all's you want to replace with "some" and gave you a number of Scriptures. This should be simple chore, identify the all's that are not all inclusive. There are more to come but let's handle the ones presented first. I believe I understand what a metonymy and a synecdoche is. What do you think the chances are that our Lord speaks of all in the same verse of Scripture and the one is a metonymy/synecdoche and the other is all inclusive?

Ragman · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 09:02 AM CCWoody said this in Post #183

Ragman, I am beginning to think again that you are a Universalist.  And, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you think that you do no deserve to be created.  It is one of the most ungrateful things I have heard someone who professes to be a disciple of Christ say in some time.

"God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions."

P.S.  Whether you claim to believe the governmental theory or not because you claim to have your own "private" interpretation of scripture let me assure that your beliefs match nearly perfectly with that error.

Woody:

Isn't it interesting that if someone disagrees with you that you then say they have a "private" interpretation?  This assumes that you don't consider your own interpretation a "private" interpretation. 

Again, I am not a universalist but I do believe in the deity of Christ which is denied by the practical application of your theology.

As for it being ungrateful to say that I did not deserve to be created.  I am only saying that the fact that I or you are on the planet is simply by the grace of the Triune God who lives in a passionate life of excitement, love, self-giving and acceptance.  And in that life and love have decided to share their life with mankind.  And this they have done in the incarnation of the Son of God. 

FineLinen · Apr 4, 2003

So you believe that all the world went after Him then..you do not see that all as being a part of the whole?
All can mean all or it can mean a part or subset of a whole as demonstrated by the grek translation..

FineLinen

No, Rnmomof7, I indeed do not believe the whole world went after Him. The primary meaning of all, is indeed just that all/whole/complete. Let's take a look at Vine's for a moment....

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000085

The adjective all radically means all! That is the primary meaning of the word. As far as the hilasmos of the holos. Well, my friend, look closely at it for a nano-second.

"And He is the propitiation/expiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins:

AND

not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Holos= at all/ utterly

 

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 02:49 PM FineLinen said this in Post #197

FineLinen

No, Rnmomof7, I indeed do not believe the whole world went after Him. The primary meaning of all, is indeed just that all/whole/complete. Let's take a look at Vine's for a moment....

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000085

The adjective all radically means all! That is the primary meaning of the word. As far as the hilasmos of the holos. Well, my friend, look closely at it for a nano-second.

"And He is the propitiation/expiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins:

AND

not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Holos= at all/ utterly

 

So then you believe that all men without exception ARE saved? (universalism?)

rnmomof7 · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 02:49 PM FineLinen said this in Post #197

FineLinen

No, Rnmomof7, I indeed do not believe the whole world went after Him. The primary meaning of all, is indeed just that all/whole/complete. Let's take a look at Vine's for a moment....

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000085

The adjective all radically means all! That is the primary meaning of the word. As far as the hilasmos of the holos. Well, my friend, look closely at it for a nano-second.

"And He is the propitiation/expiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins:

AND

not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Holos= at all/ utterly

 

An after thought..the "whole" is modified by the object..what is the object?

kosmos {kos'-mos}

TDNT - 3:868,459 probably from the base of 2865
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

As you see the word Kosmos limits what the whole is of

CCWoody · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 01:33 PM FineLinen said this in Post #195

You need to be careful not to add your own words to scripture to bend them to your prefered meaning you posted quote:

 

There is an important point to remember here: The Bible was not written in English. It was written in Greek.  And as such, you must never place a single translation of scripture above the Greek.  The problem here is that English two senses are valid translations for the Greek pavntaß. One is translated as all kinds of and the other is translated all without exception.

Please note that the bold blue words below translate the Greek word paV (pas).  Even when the English has "every kind of" or "all kinds of" or "all sorts of", there are no additional words in the Greek to supply the idea "kinds of" or "sorts of"--the Greek word paV (pas) alone conveys this meaning.  This fact is so well established that the translators of our various English Bibles freely translate paV (pas) as "every kind of", "all kinds of" or "all sorts of", as the context dictates...

Matthew 4:23 - Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Did Jesus heal every single case of disease in Galilee, or did He heal a great many people, afflicted with a great variety of illnesses?  Does "every" here designate unrestricted universality, or simply multiplicity and variety?

Matthew 23:27 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

This passage says that tombs contain all uncleanness.  Does that mean that there is no uncleanness outside of tombs?  Or, does it perhaps mean that tombs contain every single kind of uncleanness?  Aren't there some kinds of uncleanness that cannot be found in tombs?  All that the passage means is that there is much uncleanness in tombs.

Acts 2:5 - Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.  Did the Jews come from every single nation under heaven?

Verses 9-11 tell us the specific nations from which they came.  Achaia, Ethiopia, Carthage, Spain and Britain are not mentioned, although they were part of the known world at that time.  Certainly China and the Americas are not in view here, even though some might suppose the phrase "every nation under heaven" should necessarily include them.

Acts 7:22 - Moses was educated in all the learning of the Egyptians, and he was a man of power in words and deeds.

Was Moses taught, exhaustively, every single bit of knowledge known to the Egyptians?  Or, did he simply receive the sort of rigorous, comprehensive education that every Pharoah's son was expected to receive?

Acts 10:11-14 - and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."

If we translate paV as a simple "all", verse 12 would say "...there were in it all four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth..." Did every single individual animal appear in Peter's vision?  Was every single kind of animal represented? It should be obvious that there were no cattle or sheep in the sheet, for Peter could find only unclean animals in his vision.  Had he found any clean animals, he could readily have obeyed the injunction to "kill and eat" without concern for their uncleanness.  One could even argue that there was only one kind of animals in the sheet--unclean animals, although there was evidently a great variety of unclean animals--representative of the various Gentile nations to whom God was now sending His salvation.

Acts 13:10 - and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?

To say that "all" means "all individuals without exception" would mean that every instance of deceit and fraud was to be found in Elymas.  However, we know that other men besides Elymas have been guilty of deceit and fraud.  Therefore, "all" cannot denote "every single individual instance."  Neither does it denote universality of kind, for there were undoubtedly kinds of deceit and fraud which Elymas had never yet imagined, or had never been given opportunity to commit.  Clearly, "all" here denotes variety rather than exhaustive universality.

Romans 7:8 - But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

In the same way, all instances of coveting were not to be found in Paul, for some instances are found in other persons besides Paul. Nor did Paul experience every possible kind of coveting.  He surely did not know what it was to covet a shiny new automobile, or a high-speed computer.  He surely did not experience the kind of covetousness that only a powerful, wealthy king or emperor, like Caesar, could know.  But he did experience a tremendous amount and diversity of coveting, which is the most that the word "all" can signify here.

1 Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Does every instance of evil result from the love of money as its root cause?  Does every case of adultery, jealousy, hatred, disobedience to parents always have the love of money as its cause?

I have given many scripture examples of why the "all" in 1 Timothoy 2:1-4 is properly translated as "all kinds of" and not "all without exception".  The fact is that these reason alone are a sufficient reason why I am correctly interpreting the text.

The warning, if it applies to anyone, applies to those who are bent upon forcing this passage to read "all men without exception".   For how, then, do you explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

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