Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Some folks like to "quote" St. Jerome as if they think it means the Bible we have is corrupt but Jerome was not even talking about the Bible when he wrote:

"They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5.

.....Jerome was talking about how others twisted his words when he translated the writings of other scholars such as Josephus, Polycarp, Origen etc. Here is what Jerome actually said.

5. As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. It is a false rumour which has reached you to the effect that I have translated the books of Josephus and the volumes of the holy men Papias and Polycarp. I have neither the leisure nor the ability to preserve the charm of these masterpieces in another tongue. Of Origen and Didymus I have translated a few things, to set before my countrymen some specimens of Greek teaching.
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 71 (Jerome)

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
Yes.
Let me just give you my best explanation of aionosis and then I'll have to leave it there because I'm suffering from aionosis battle fatigue (even though I won)
This is from Thomas Talbott:
"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending temporal duration. On three occasions (see Rom 16:25; 2 Tim 1:19; Titus 1:2), this term does combine with the concept of time in such a way as to imply temporal duration; but on each of these occassions, which are clearly exceptional, the context excludes the idea of unending temporal duration. Given its more normal use in the New Testament, where aiõnios refers either to Bid himself or to the possessions, gifts, or actions of God, it appears to have a special religious meaning that has nothing to do with the duration of temporal events."
So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. So, for example, external punishment is simply punishment of any duration that has its causal source in the eternal purposes of God. We see this where the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" in the letter of Jude. This fire's not still burning is it? Eternal here is a reference to God, meaning that it was a form of divine judgement and it's causal source was God himself. Similarly for eternal hell fire and eternal punishment and the like.

A UR scholar, I presume, giving his unsupported opinion about what he thinks a Greek word means. Your scholar says.

"I think it fair to say that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does aiõnios carry any implication of unending >>temporal<< duration."

His misuse of the word "temporal" has already been addressed.
That is total rubbish.

John 3:14-16
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal [aionios] life in him."
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.

In vss 15-16 Jesus twice promises those who believe in Him will have eternal [aionios] life and they shall never perish.
Did Jesus lie? Will Christians "never perish" or will they only live an age that will end sometime?

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
* * * So aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God. * * *

Nonsense! Please show me an accredited koine Greek grammar or lexicon which makes the statement "aiõnios can mean eternal but only when applied to God?"
Edited: Sometimes my fingers type what they want to.

Clare73 · Sep 25, 2021

Hillsage said:
All you just gave me was your opinion to counter my opinion. Show me your biblical support for YOUR OPINION.

Here's part of my study on the subject years ago. Sorry it's so long, but I've actually shortened it a lot to post here. I'm not dumb enough to think most here can read much before their minds glaze over.

But I believe myself to be pretty thorough in my search for truth. Trying more to be led by the Spirit for 'spiritual truth' than the fundaMENTAL scholars for church doctrines.

FREE WILL and SOVERIGNTY

I typed up a screensaver banner one time that said; "God reigns through those who obey, and He rules over those who disobey." I don't limit those words to just believers. I think that the concept of 'Free Will' sounds good because we 'think' we have it. But I don't see 'total free will' in scripture.

"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..."

Secrets of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:11):

1) What God requires of us, he provides for us.
2) Every precept is a promise (power goes along with the command).
3) God crowns (rewards) his own grace and work in us (Philippians 2:12-13; Romans 1:17)
which is why we will cast our golden crowns
(rewards - 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10, 3:11)
at the foot of this throne (Revelation 4:4, 10).

- Matthew Henry

How does Matthew Henry interpret the texts used to support universalism, since it has been around so long he must have known about it?

You think you were born again of your free will.

We had nothing to do with our first birth, and we have nothing to do with our second birth
of John 3:3.

I only need to yield to this FIRST scripture alone, to disprove you. I give God the glory for the 'born from above' rebirth of my spirit into the family of God on earth.

JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JOH 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1Pe 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

ROM 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 9:20-21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Deut. 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thes 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isa 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isa 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isa 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psa 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1Ki 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Gen 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Rev 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Prov. 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

2 Thes. 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts to God's love and Christ's endurance.

Deut. 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Prov. 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Scripture does not teach the "free will" of man.
That is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius (British monk of the fourth century) on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will.
Scripture presents no such notion.

Hillsage · Sep 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
Some folks like to "quote" St. Jerome as if they think it means the Bible we have is corrupt but Jerome was not even talking about the Bible when he wrote:

"They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5.
.....Jerome was talking about how others twisted his words when he translated the writings of other scholars such as Josephus, Polycarp, Origen etc. Here is what Jerome actually said.

5. As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. For so many are the pilgrims passing to and fro that I have been unable to read so many volumes. They have found me also troubled by a long illness from which this Lent I am slowly recovering as they are leaving me. If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. It is a false rumour which has reached you to the effect that I have translated the books of Josephus and the volumes of the holy men Papias and Polycarp. I have neither the leisure nor the ability to preserve the charm of these masterpieces in another tongue. Of Origen and Didymus I have translated a few things, to set before my countrymen some specimens of Greek teaching.
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 71 (Jerome)

The principle of the JEROME quote is what's true. So don't try to turn your DER into a DUH over this, my brother.

The bible itself tells of the corruption of the old scribes.

JER 8:8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

JER 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

The false doctrine of ECT is proven by the false PROFITS of the modern scribes and their modern translations. Case in point being, the very word HELL being used in different bible translations inconsistently, is certainly a jewel for your guys to keep searching for.

HELL IN THE FOLLOWING TRANSLATIONS
Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x
Young's Literal Translation 0x

GEEE, where in hell, has hell gone since those original KJV days? And where did those other new versions MISS a HELL, here and there?

Also, to chew with your gum,

-One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?

Let me see, trust you/your guys, trust the scriptures, trust you/your guys, trust the scriptures. I think I'll trust the scriptures, my guys and the leading of the Holy Spirit of Truth. The one I received when I first spoke in tongues.

None of these sources is infallible, and I know that.

But until 'that day', I'll hang on to my signature line, thank you. :wave:

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
Secrets of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:11):
1) What God requires of us, he provides for us.
2) Every precept is a promise (power goes along with the command).
3) God crowns (rewards) his own grace and work in us (Philippians 2:12-13; Romans 1:17)
which is why we will cast our golden crowns
(rewards - 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10, 3:11)
at the foot of this throne (Revelation 4:4, 10).
How does Matthew interpret the texts used to support universalism, since it has been around so long he must have known about it?
We had nothing to do with our first birth, and we have nothing to do with our second birth
of John 3:3.
Scripture does not teach the "free will" of man.
That is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius (British monk of the fourth century) on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will.
Scripture presents no such notion.

John 3:13-18
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"Believes" is a verb an action that a person must perform. He that does not perform that action is condemned already.

Hillsage · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
How about you? What led you to the universalist light?

I was saved in the summer of 1972. 6 months later received the baptism of holy spirit power from the person of The Holy Spirit. (That's a brief 'whole teaching' comment). Started going to my girlfriend's Lutheran church. Was also being mentored by a local married couple along with my girlfriend and 3 others. We met Monday, Wednesday and Friday nights for 2 years. That was pretty much when we quit the 'organized church system'. For 17 years we were in a home church settings. But in about 1974 about 8 of us went to a weekend retreat in Arkansas. It was about a 600 mile trip. At that retreat I heard one of the weekend speakers talk about Ultimate Reconciliation. It blew me out of the water. I went home and started seeking information to study. Those were difficult years, pre computer. It took me 10 years of studying different sources, just hoping it was true. But at the end of those 10 years, I've never looked back. The Savior of the World series of booklets from Preston Eby were a great help in the beginning.

They weren't online back in the early 80's when I found them. They came as individual booklets....which I still have....all highlighted and marked up. :idea:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Lazarus Short · Sep 25, 2021

Hillsage said:
I was saved in the summer of 1972. 6 months later received the baptism of holy spirit power from the person of The Holy Spirit. (That's a brief 'whole teaching' comment). Started going to my girlfriend's Lutheran church. Was also being mentored by a local married couple along with my girlfriend and 3 others. We met Monday, Wednesday and Friday nights for 2 years. That was pretty much when we quit the 'organized church system'. For 17 years we were in a home church settings. But in about 1974 about 8 of us went to a weekend retreat in Arkansas. It was about a 600 mile trip. At that retreat I heard one of the weekend speakers talk about Ultimate Reconciliation. It blew me out of the water. I went home and started seeking information to study. Those were difficult years, pre computer. It took me 10 years of studying different sources, just hoping it was true. But at the end of those 10 years, I've never looked back. The Savior of the World series of booklets from Preston Eby were a great help in the beginning.

They weren't online back in the early 80's when I found them. They came as individual booklets....which I still have....all highlighted and marked up.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Do you remember the name of that weekend speaker?

Clare73 · Sep 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
John 3:13-18
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"Believes" is a verb an action that a person must perform. He that does not perform that action is condemned already.

Actually, belief/faith is not an action, a performance, a work because
salvation is by faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), and
the righteousness of justifiction is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:3; 3:2, 28).

Biblical belief/faith is an absolute and unquestioning resting (not work) on Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," accounted righteous.

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
Actually, belief/faith is not an action, a performance, a work because
salvation is by faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), and
the righteousness of justifiction is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:3; 3:2, 28).
Biblical belief/faith is an absolute and unquestioning resting (not work) on Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," accounted righteous.

Everything after your first line is false because is based on a false premise. Look up the word "believe" in a dictionary. It is a verb. Jesus gave the command believe twice.

Clare73 · Sep 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
John 3:13-18
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"Believes" is a verb an action that a person must perform. He that does not perform that action is condemned already.

Der Alte said:
Everything after your first line is false because is based on a false premise. Look up the word "believe" in a dictionary. It is a verb. Jesus gave the command believe twice.

Sleep is a verb. Feel is a verb. Rest is a verb.

"Works" are works of the Law, which do not save.
Is there a commandment to believe?
Belief is not a work of the law, belief is a work of grace, which saves.

We are saved by grace (through faith), not by works (of the Law). (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Hillsage · Sep 25, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
Do you remember the name of that weekend speaker?

I really don't recall it, it was the only time I ever heard him speak and don't know if he ever even put out anything. I know the home group mentioned him often for a few years.

Clare73 · Sep 25, 2021

Der Alte · Sep 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
Sleep is a verb. Feel is a verb. Rest is a verb.
"Works" are works of the Law, which do not save.
Is there a commandment to believe?
Belief is not a work of the law, belief is a work of grace, which saves.
We are saved by grace (through faith), not by works (of the Law). (Ephesians 2:8-9)

I suggest you go back and read the post I was responding to. There was nothing about "works," law or otherwise. John 3:14-16 states there is a requirement for eternal life. It is stated twice, without the stated action the person is condemned already.

Hillsage · Sep 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
- Matthew Henry
How does Matthew Henry interpret the texts used to support universalism, since it has been around so long he must have known about it?

I don't know if he was a believer in Ultimate Reconciliation, but I doubt it. He's too accepted by ECT people. But then I don't know if he believed in infant baptism, the rapture or Calvinism or Armenianism, either. There are just so many theological positions which the church has argued about for hundreds of years. And "since it has been around so long" really isn't a determining factor as to what's true or false anyway, IMO.

Do you believe in infant baptism? What about communion, are you a much newer 'more Protestant' believer in Consubstantiation, which differs radically from the older Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation?

If you don't believe in all those Roman Catholic doctrines, all of which have been around the longest, then I hope you see my point concerning 'older' does not necessarily mean being right or wrong.

Jipsah · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
How about you? What led you to the universalist light?

The first time I ever really questioned the ECT doctrine was because of a kid hitting on my oldest daughter. An Indian kid, nice as could be, brainy, pleasant, a little "dorky", terrific musician. He and Leah (my daughter) were in the same youth orchestra. When they graduated high school, they both went off to distant universities on violin scholarships and never saw each other again. That December, driving back to Nashville from Chicago for the Christmas holiday, the boy apparently fell asleep at the wheel, ran off the road, and was killed.

He was a good kid. Terrific violinist (not as good as Leah, but then nobody in the orchestra was), brainy, polite, hard working, and had never harmed anyone in his life as far as I know. But he was a Hindu, and according to my ECT friends, he must necessarily spend eternity being tortured in hell.

They said it was a just punishment for his sins, because God is so holy and good that any deviation at all from His will, however seemingly trivial, deserves eternal torment.

No compassion.
No mitigating circumstances.
No pleas for leniency.
No "Father forgive them"
No mercy that endures forever and ever;
No mercy at all.
Eternal vengeance.
Eternal spite.
Eternal malice.

So having chosen to be born to Hindu parents, and having had little or no interest in religion at all, was sufficient to deserve endless eternal torture. Not for the purpose of correction, not to teach a lesson, not for any salutary reason at all. Simply because God derives some satisfaction from it.

No.

I cannot and will not believe that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ creates people simply to cast them into hell to burn forever. That's not what He taught us.

I'll leave the proof-texting sophistries to others.[/user]

Ceallaigh · Sep 25, 2021

Here's what Pope Francis has to say about that...

Hmm · Sep 26, 2021

Jipsah said:
They said it was a just punishment for his sins, because God is so holy and good that any deviation at all from His will, however seemingly trivial, deserves eternal torment.

I've heard similar logic used regarding God's infiniteness: because God is infinite and we are finite, even the slightest act of disobedience towards Him deserves an infinite punishment.

Although why the conclusion follows from the premise is never explained and that's probably because it doesn't.

Hmm · Sep 26, 2021

MMXX said:
Here's what Pope Francis has to say about that...

Great video though painful to watch. Pope Francis comes across as a very wise and compassionate man.

I wonder how many fans of ECT would have the guts to tell that little boy where they believe his father is now, especially in the presence of other adults?

Someone once said that your theology is not worth believing in if you can't preach it standing in front of the gates of Auschwitz.

Lazarus Short · Sep 26, 2021

Hmm said:
I've heard similar logic used regarding God's infiniteness: because God is infinite and we are finite, even the slightest act of disobedience towards Him deserves an infinite punishment.

Although why the conclusion follows from the premise is never explained and that's probably because it doesn't.

I noted carefully while examining the Law that God gave to Moses, that punishment (always delivered in the here-and-now world) is generally proportional to the crime. Further, "hell" is never hinted at and the most severe punishment is simple death.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Blood-bought

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

This is me about 1 yr. old.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

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Blood-bought

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Blood-bought

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Blood-bought

This is me about 1 yr. old.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Blood Drinker

May God be with you and bless you.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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