Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

mark46 said:

They might have to violate state or local laws or ordinances. I don't think that OSHA regs require that choice for small businesses.

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They don't require them to.
I think that a business is free to make their own rules as long as they don't violate federal and state labor laws. Those laws don't protect unvaccinated people from discrimination.
I could be wrong of course but I'd like to see a case.

Aldebaran said:

They didn't approve the experimental version. They approved the one that still doesn't exist.

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Source?

Hank77 said:

They don't require them to.
I think that a business is free to make their own rules as long as they don't violate federal and state labor laws. Those laws don't protect unvaccinated people from discrimination.
I could be wrong of course but I'd like to see a case.

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Aren't There are states that have laws or executive orders in place to protect to prohibit businesses from requiring masks or vaccinations?

Clizby WampusCat said:

So why is Biden addressing the nation not a good idea? People are not being stubborn. They are unconvinced the benefits outweigh the risks.

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Biden is not a scientist or a doctor who can explain how covid attacks the body, how covid kills and seriously injures the human body, how the vaccinations work, the efficacy of a vaccine (explain how no vaccine is 100% efficacy), and the other hundreds of questions people will ask.
Besides all of this, so many of the unvaccinated are not Biden supporters, they aren't going to believe him even if he was 100% correct in everything he said.

Trump has been vaccinated even though he had already had covid and yet there are Trump supporters that don't believe he has been vaccinated so they won't either.

Clizby WampusCat said:

How do you propose doing that? In the mean time lets figure out how to care for everyone.

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We have enough vaccine, just have people get it or get no emergency medical care by a certain date.

Clizby WampusCat said:

The balance is what we are discussing isn't it. I think forcing someone to put something in their body against their will is across the line. Not giving medical care to people that need it because you don't like their life decisions is across the line as well. We disagree on where the balance point is.

In the real world people do not reap what they sow generally. The world is unfair and it is best to realize this.

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This is not forcing something unreasonable and it is not merely for selfish reasons, so it's already twofold short sighted in the idea of absolute autonomy in a society

When the situation is like in Idaho, I think you'd sing a different tune when you literally have to triage

So basically just inaction because you've bought into fatalism? Wow, and you call yourself "rational"?

Clizby WampusCat said:

I don't care about Trump. He sucked. All I said was that Trump nor Biden addressed the nation and made an evidence based case for vaccines. They should have.

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And you think the evidence hasn't been presented? All they'd have to do is refer to experts in the field, but America's so rock stupid in terms of any scientific literacy for 50% or more of the population, the evidence presented would just be discounted at the start because of well poisoning for the government being "biased"

Clizby WampusCat said:

Your view of the unvaccinated is from MSNBC? Most people I know that are unvaccinated are because they have believed things by bad evidence. They are not drinking disinfectant and such. I agree that people that have not gotten vaccinated have not actually researched the vaccine correctly and are implementing poor thinking skills. An epidemic of poor thinking in the US has led to most of our problems or made them worse. However, this does not disqualify them from getting medical care if they need it.

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Pretty sure I never referenced any channel, so nice strawman and a painfully rushed one at that

The manifestation will vary, I'm not saying everyone is doing it, but when someone buys into such disinformation and idiocy, it is not just their fault, it is society's in not addressing our poor education system, etc

Gargling/=/ drinking, first off, let's be precise in language

It does when the situation is between them and people that have a better chance of surviving because they took those precautions. If they care about a free market like they do, this is the consequence of their actions, a right to refuse service that isn't preferential, but based on demonstrable evidence that without vaccination, you are highly likely to not survive versus those who still get hospitalized (5% of cases at best) when vaccinated because of the delta variant and future strains.

whatbogsends said:

Should we be denying medical services for heart attacks, blood clotting and myocarditis for those who've gotten the vaccine?

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Except myocarditis is also observed in covid cases, you're equivocating and cherry picking based on what is still an exceptionally unlikely outcome for most people vaccinated. You'd have a better chance getting struck by lightning

Clizby WampusCat said:

Whatever priveedge I have has nothing to do with taking care of people that are sick. I thought that most people would want to do that no matter their priveedge. I was wrong.

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It does when you act like everyone has the same opportunities when America is one of the worst developed countries in income inequality and upward mobility

My privilege does not blind me like it has you to systemic issues. Instead you want to act like it's just all people's choices and nothing structural to society

98cwitr said:

They already are if you consider that 94% of those having severe issues with covid are those with comorbidities according to the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

It's all being ignored by the media though...even though it's clearly published by the CDC.

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And comorbidities are not a guarantee of death or survival, you're cherry picking to victim blame and spread misinformation, like that isn't what is convincing people to refuse the vaccine on "principle" rather than what it really is: propaganda.

98cwitr said:

None of those links even mention comorbidity.

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Are you pushing “But COVID just by itself isn’t even deadly?”

After all this time you’re going to try to push a rope of an argument like that?

Be better.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Ok. I don't think the government telling you want you have to put into your body is a good way to go.

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Let's find a way to help people. But no, not the most obvious, effective way.

The other approach would require the government funding and forcing people to become health care workers. Is that worse than a vaccine mandate?

98cwitr said:

None of those links even mention comorbidity.

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Does your link? You posed a table showing "the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)". The articles I posted give more details on how covid causes many of the more frequent entries in your table, for example, from the Forbes article :

Clizby WampusCat said:

How do you propose doing that? In the mean time lets figure out how to care for everyone.

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How do you propose doing that?

Pommer said:

Are you pushing “But COVID just by itself isn’t even deadly?”

After all this time you’re going to try to push a rope of an argument like that?

Be better.

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To be fair, are there really any better arguments to be used by posts compelled to deny that covid is a problem?

But yeah, I'm a bit surprised this is the sort of disinformation the site wants to be seen officially supporting.

Hank77 said:

Biden is not a scientist or a doctor who can explain how covid attacks the body, how covid kills and seriously injures the human body, how the vaccinations work, the efficacy of a vaccine (explain how no vaccine is 100% efficacy), and the other hundreds of questions people will ask.
Besides all of this, so many of the unvaccinated are not Biden supporters, they aren't going to believe him even if he was 100% correct in everything he said.

Trump has been vaccinated even though he had already had covid and yet there are Trump supporters that don't believe he has been vaccinated so they won't either.

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Then Biden can get an expert to address the nation. But if you don't want to help people understand then ok, but why not let others try to convince them? Saying they will never be convinced is poor thinking and unproductive in my opinion.

Vylo said:

We have enough vaccine, just have people get it or get no emergency medical care by a certain date.

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Ok, I believe that is unethical. Many Biden supporters want universal health care yet will deny it to people they think don't deserve it. That is why government should not be involved in our healthcare system. Someday the government will say you don't get treatment for something because they don't like your decisions.

muichimotsu said:

This is not forcing something unreasonable and it is not merely for selfish reasons, so it's already twofold short sighted in the idea of absolute autonomy in a society

When the situation is like in Idaho, I think you'd sing a different tune when you literally have to triage

So basically just inaction because you've bought into fatalism? Wow, and you call yourself "rational"?

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Never mentioned fatalism. I never said anything about absolute autonomy. Never said anything about inaction. Never called myself rational.

What I have said is that we should not force people to take vaccines and we need to figure out how to care for everyone that is sick. I believe these are achievable.