Teacher Resigns After Parent Complains Pride Flag Is "Personal Agenda"

SilverBear · Sep 16, 2021

tall73 said:
Only after he demonstrated that this was a personal agenda.

In class? What did he say?

He is a mandatory reporter in MO, and doing so would get those involved who could assist.

but he couldn't respond to the student even as a private citizen.

Given they are the ones who set the curriculum that must not have been an obstacle.

It's a debate class. In my debate classes the topics were picked by students

rjs330 · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
The diary of a twelve year old girl who was in hiding from the Nazi's is inappropriate contentographic?

I'd ask if you ever read it....but i think that answer is obvious.

You said that's why people wanted it removed, not me. And by the way it was the definitive edition which graphically describes women's genitalia and such. The edited diary doesn't do that. And it's up to parents what their children are exposed to with themes of that nature.

So once again you are twisting things to make them sound like something else. It had nothing to do with Jews, but parental rights.

tall73 · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
which has nothing to do with the class curriculum. Special pleading

No, they are not the curriculum. But they are still chosen by the government. So they fall under things the government wants to promote. And they control the messaging at the government school.

They are not the same as a personal agenda of a teacher that he was advised not to promote.

And did you report them yet on your anonymous form?

tall73 · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
In class? What did he say?

Already answered multiple times.

But to humor you:

He presented the flag. He even said it worked as intended since students came to him privately.

And then after he was asked why he took it down he said it "represented" him and LGBT students. And if anyone had a problem with that they could probably find another class.

but he couldn't respond to the student even as a private citizen.

Ok

It's a debate class. In my debate classes the topics were picked by students

Not always how it works these days. But it depends on the school. Sometimes my kids were given a theme and they had to pick a sub-topic within that.

But again, they determine the agenda, so they would know if that is a problem.

Ana the Ist · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
putting words in people's mouths like that is just dishonest.

I quoted him. Do you understand how this site works?

Ana the Ist · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
no he didn't and this is just more dis honesty on your part

I quoted him.

Ana the Ist · Sep 16, 2021

SilverBear said:
Like gossip,

Didn't gossip.

name calling

Didn't name call.

and dismissal of individuals to third parties is still bullying.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Is English your second language? Are you native American? What's going on here?

Deal with it.

Lol

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
Unfortunately, even the notion that "nobody should be excluded" has become political when one of the political philosophies in this nation includes the notion of excluding the very people represented in the flag.

Yeah that whole 3/5 compromise and the normalization of slavery for practically a century. Kind of messy history we tend to gloss over, it seems

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

bekkilyn said:
Did I even remotely state that the country and state flags are necessary?

No I did not. You read that into what I wrote.

However in a public school financed by the taxpayers of the state inside the country known as the U.S., I don't see an issue with those flags as opposed to whatever political or religious ideology some individual teacher might be pushing onto the students, but I suppose that certain political factions would have no issue ripping down the state and U.S. flags and stomping on them or whatever it is that they do to protest how much they despise living in this country.

And it's very obvious that a rainbow flag is controversial, even within the community it proposes to represent because not everyone in that community agrees with the changes that it has incorporated over the years.

In any case, a rainbow flag, or any other political or religious flag, should not be representing a public state school. Private schools of course may put up whatever flags they please.

You don't have to state something if the intent is insinuation within the statement otherwise

No, people don't step on the flag because they hate the country in itself, they hate what it's become and how people are trying to sweep that under the rug instead of owning it and trying to make things better, not "great", better.

If I had the capacity, I'd buy a flag or two and burn or otherwise deface them to show that point: I appreciate America and its values, that doesn't mean I unquestionably consider it the greatest country in the world, especially with problems that many people, especially affluent and/or white, don't tend to see because they don't experience it or see it as some systemic issue, but a lack of moral character or such (victim blaming)

Never said there wasn't variation in terms of the rainbow flag, but acting like the variation is the same as controversy is disingenuous and a bad faith argument, because you also assume it's just "obvious", which is a fallacious appeal to common perception instead of recognizing some people don't see an issue with the rainbow flag.

Oh, so a parochial school being outright discriminatory based on race and putting up a Confederate battle flag under the idea that it represents their values in terms of an interpretation of the Bible is legal? Purely hypothetical, but it's hardly impossible and applies to the logic where you think they can have ANY flag they want without qualification otherwise.

Their private status doesn't give them carte blanche under the law, just more leeway than public schools.

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

tall73 said:
How did he remotely say that was the rule? He described them as people he admired because they overcame the difficulties. The implication was that very few did.

Nor did he in the slightest disparage those who couldn't overcome those difficulties.

And they're reflective of a similar aspect in the present: we see black people who are even more successful, but they're the exception rather than any kind of tendency of actual improvement that isn't marginal at best, due to black families not having the advantage of wealth accumulation that white families have never had an issue with in terms of the discriminatory practices like redlining.

Success should be acknowledged, but not to the point that we act like things are just okay because we feel good about helping minorities as white people often can do and fall prey to that passive activist situation.

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
There is no "person in question" here -- this is all hypothetical, of course.

That said, of course... most bullies do tend to follow a predictable pattern.

I was referring to the person who claimed you were bigoted against them or bullying them when you insinuated they may be a bully themselves. Not any person in terms of the school situation with bullying

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

tall73 said:
The government school.....displays a government flag. You do get that it is the government determining speech in government schools, right?

Students have the right to be unpatriotic at school. That is about the best you can do about the government speaking on behalf of the government at a government school.

So they can just arbitrarily determine what's okay and no one can call them out on hypocrisy? I feel like you're giving them too much credit. And jurisprudence is different than policy, the latter of which can be determined as unconstitutional

People have a right to be unpatriotic period, it should not be this divisive nonsense people feed into because they want to "unify" by the very force they claim to oppose from the government, but have no problem with pressuring via social consequences when it suits them (ostracism, exclusion, discrimination)

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
You mean victims?

As they pointed out, victim is more immediate, marginalization is not as simple as you make it because you're not in the groups in question, though ironically in America, atheists are also marginalized.

But the experience in regards to that is far different than those things that are more innate to a person versus a worldview that is determined by thought and consideration of things versus introspection about one's sexual orientation or gender identity.

However, it should mean that you should actually possess some empathy towards those struggles, but instead, you gaslight and treat them like they don't matter versus your "struggle" against what you think is prejudice against white people (it's really not anything like that, you're dishonestly framing this as if bringing up racial injustice is pitting races against each other when the goal is unifying under the idea that such a thing is to be reduced to near nonexistence in a more civil society rather than continue with norms that encourage prejudicial attitudes via society conditioning people that they're okay by repetition)

The fact that you don't appear to have struggled with those makes it ironic you then play victim with regards to what you perceive as bigotry against white people versus merely demanding accountability and humility as regards the social hegemony that white straight cis people still have in regards to being the norm

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
You did...

Here you are almost 20 pages later acting like no one would be ridiculous enough to suggest that students are in need of a special flag.

Yet almost 20 pages ago you were claiming that their identity automatically makes them victims...and the flag showed them that they are special snowflakes that the world loves (paraphrasing).

Oh you couldn't be more dishonest unless you slapped it on my face

I said it was potentially an issue, I never said the presence was absolutely required and that its lack was a slight against LGBTQ

Because I never said that, you assume it based on selective reading of my posts to fit your bias you keep acting like you don't have

Nope, also didn't say that, but nice try at at mischaracterization again. Their status means they are more likely, not that their mere status means they are a victim and can never succeed, VERY different implications

"Paraphrasing" is more spin, you're skewing what I said to act like I'm creating victims out of nothing and just dividing when you keep speaking with this insulting tone and calling marginalized people snowflakes like you're some alt right stooge. And they can ban me for another month if they want, you are not worth my time as you continue this facade of being objective when you're so detached from reality, you only see what you want and lack even a shred of empathy to a marginalized group, but just tell them to "buck up" and not be so "whiny"

I doubt it....but you're entitled to your opinion
.

Yeah, if you could actually fully quote what I said, that might help with any claims that you're being "thorough" here[/QUOTE]

bekkilyn · Sep 17, 2021

muichimotsu said:
You don't have to state something if the intent is insinuation within the statement otherwise

You would have a point if what you read into the statement was actually true, but I did not even remotely imply that U.S. government flags are necessary on public school property.

No, people don't step on the flag because they hate the country in itself, they hate what it's become and how people are trying to sweep that under the rug instead of owning it and trying to make things better, not "great", better.

So when someone puts up a portrait of someone on a dartboard and throws darts at it, it means that they're just trying to encourage that person to be the best that they can be? Sounds kind of like that quote about beating all the employees until morale improves.

If I had the capacity, I'd buy a flag or two and burn or otherwise deface them to show that point: I appreciate America and its values, that doesn't mean I unquestionably consider it the greatest country in the world, especially with problems that many people, especially affluent and/or white, don't tend to see because they don't experience it or see it as some systemic issue, but a lack of moral character or such (victim blaming)

Do you regularly deface and destroy other things/people that you also claim to appreciate because of some imperfection or flaw that you want to change?

If someone were to stomp on a rainbow flag and set fire to it, would you sincerely believe it wasn't out of hatred even if the person who did the stomping claimed otherwise?

Never said there wasn't variation in terms of the rainbow flag, but acting like the variation is the same as controversy is disingenuous and a bad faith argument, because you also assume it's just "obvious", which is a fallacious appeal to common perception instead of recognizing some people don't see an issue with the rainbow flag.

So just because some people don't have an issue with a MAGA flag means that it should be hung up all over a public school building provided that a teacher wants it there for educational purposes?

But it really doesn't matter what kind of flag it is, controversial or not. Unless it's a U.S. government flag, it's not to be flown on public school property.

If you want public schools to be draped all over with rainbow flags or whatever other political or religious flags that you believe should represent the public school system, then you will need to make some changes in the laws.

Oh, so a parochial school being outright discriminatory based on race and putting up a Confederate battle flag under the idea that it represents their values in terms of an interpretation of the Bible is legal? Purely hypothetical, but it's hardly impossible and applies to the logic where you think they can have ANY flag they want without qualification otherwise.

Their private status doesn't give them carte blanche under the law, just more leeway than public schools.

Private schools of course may put up whatever (legal) flags they please. Public schools are restricted to government flags.

muichimotsu · Sep 17, 2021

You would have a point if what you read into the statement was actually true, but I did not even remotely imply that U.S. government flags are necessary on public school property.

So any notions of forced pledges and nationalism are bad? I'd hope we're in agreement there

So when someone puts up a portrait of someone on a dartboard and throws darts at it, it means that they're just trying to encourage that person to be the best that they can be? Sounds kind of like that quote about beating all the employees until morale improves.

Not remotely comparable, because the image of a person has an explicit meaning, versus a vague national symbol that can be taken to extremes in the idea of authoritarian obedience, which is where we get to with the idea that you have to love America or leave, no attempts at improving it, because we prefer the status quo

Do you regularly deface and destroy other things/people that you also claim to appreciate because of some imperfection or flaw that you want to change?

If someone were to stomp on a rainbow flag and set fire to it, would you sincerely believe it wasn't out of hatred even if the person who did the stomping claimed otherwise?

Problem is LGBTQ are marginalized and suffer hate crimes, Americans don't within their own country because of being an American, it's plenty of other traits that motivate prejudice. A supposedly unifying symbol shouldn't be used by domestic terrorists as a bludgeon to enforce obedience and conformity to what they think is appropriate, that's why people want things to be better and do the burning as a symbolic act, you're conflating dishonestly with items that don't have the same societal significance historically.

So just because some people don't have an issue with a MAGA flag means that it should be hung up all over a public school building provided that a teacher wants it there for educational purposes?

But it really doesn't matter what kind of flag it is, controversial or not. Unless it's a U.S. government flag, it's not to be flown on public school property.

If you want public schools to be draped all over with rainbow flags or whatever other political or religious flags that you believe should represent the public school system, then you will need to make some changes in the laws.

No, because MAGA is innately divisive and pits people against each other, the rainbow flag doesn't even start to do that except by delusions of persecution from privileged straight people who feel "victimized"

I don't think even the official flag should be there, I thought I made that clear, because it isn't as unifying as you believe it to be merley because it has some legal influence and tradition. That's like saying we should just forget that the Pledge didn't have under God in it until the 50s and just pretend it was always like that

Ana the Ist · Sep 17, 2021

muichimotsu said:
As they pointed out, victim is more immediate, marginalization is not as simple as you make it because you're not in the groups in question, though ironically in America, atheists are also marginalized.

If it doesn't mean "victim/victimized" then I don't know what it means in this context.

But the experience in regards to that is far different than those things that are more innate to a person versus a worldview that is determined by thought and consideration of things versus introspection about one's sexual orientation or gender identity.

I don't really consider my atheism any less innate than those other things. I don't really consider any of them important aspects of my identity .

However, it should mean that you should actually possess some empathy towards those struggles, but instead, you gaslight and treat them like they don't matter versus your "struggle" against what you think is prejudice against white people

Racism. It's racism against white people.

(it's really not anything like that, you're dishonestly framing

I'm being 100% honest when I say that white people are the only race that its socially acceptable to be racist against.

this as if bringing up racial injustice is pitting races against each other

I think the racism against whites is directly related to the increase in membership of white supremacist groups.

when the goal is unifying under the idea that such a thing is to be reduced to near nonexistence in a more civil society

If your goal is to reduce "racial injustice" then I think you're going about it the wrong way.

I don't think you can possibly hope to get to a place where we, as a society, reduce the amount of racial injustice by pushing broad generalizations about the moral status of races or their perpetual victimhood.

That's the main difference between your political philosophy on race and mine....I believe that if we want to get to a place where race is treated like it doesn't matter, we actually have to start treating race like it doesn't matter.

The political philosophy you have ascribed to....has basically abandoned the idea that we can reach a place as a society where race doesn't matter. That idea is known as "colorblindness" and the left now hates that idea. The racial philosophy of the political left now sees race as extremely important to one's identity.....and therefore it's extremely important when considering laws and policies.

rather than continue with norms that encourage prejudicial attitudes via society conditioning people that they're okay by repetition)

The fact that you don't appear to have struggled with those makes it ironic you then play victim with regards to what you perceive as bigotry against white people versus merely demanding accountability and humility as regards the social hegemony that white straight cis people still have in regards to being the norm

I don't "appear to have struggled"?

Because I'm white?

TLK Valentine · Sep 17, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Yeah that whole 3/5 compromise and the normalization of slavery for practically a century. Kind of messy history we tend to gloss over, it seems

That was an error that we as a nation eventually corrected... but I agree that it would certainly be a second error to pretend we never committed that one.

Ana the Ist · Sep 17, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Oh you couldn't be more dishonest unless you slapped it on my face

I said it was potentially an issue, I never said the presence was absolutely required and that its lack was a slight against LGBTQ

I never said you said it was required....

If you want to clarify your statement and claim it is "potentially an issue"...I'm ok with that.

Any whiny students who potentially make it an issue may potentially need professional help.

Because I never said that, you assume it based on selective reading of my posts to fit your bias you keep acting like you don't have
[/WHAT]

I assume? I pointed out pages ago that if you didn't assume victimhood as a part of identities, you wouldn't have any argument to make .

You denied it....then assumed certain identities were victims repeatedly throughout the thread

Nope, also didn't say that, but nice try at at mischaracterization again.

Click to expand...

Would you like me to quote you Rome more?

"Paraphrasing" is more spin, you're skewing what I said to act like I'm creating victims out of nothing and just dividing when you keep speaking with this insulting tone and calling marginalized people snowflakes like you're some alt right stooge.

Click to expand...

If they're upset at losing a flag....

Then it's more observation than insult.

.And they can ban me for another month if they want, you are not worth my time as you continue this facade of being objective when you're so detached from reality, you only see what you want and lack even a shred of empathy to a marginalized group, but just tell them to "buck up" and not be so "whiny"

Click to expand...

I've gone off the assumption that marginalized = victim.

If that's not what it means, explain it.

Yeah, if you could actually fully quote what I said, that might help with any claims that you're being "thorough" here

Click to expand...

I'll respond to this again, with quotes of you equating identity and victimhood.

I don't see why you're even arguing this....you do it constantly.

Ana the Ist · Sep 17, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
That was an error that we as a nation eventually corrected... but I agree that it would certainly be a second error to pretend we never committed that one.

I thought everyone knew of the 3/5ths compromise. They may not know that it was the slave owners arguing for slaves to be counted as equal people...and northerners who wanted them counted as less than 3/5ths....but I've never met anyone who didn't know.

Who is "trying to pretend" it didn't happen?

Teacher Resigns After Parent Complains Pride Flag Is "Personal Agenda"

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