Jesus is Lord

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 9, 2021

...................

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
So this is my dilemma. If upwards of 70% of adults with some of my conditions die from the terminal symptom of suicidal behaviour, considering I have multiple diagnoses increasing my risk, is assisted, responsible, planned assisted dying any better or viewed any differently?

There could be some guilt mitigation due to all of this suffering but as you know it is wrong and can act against doing this then you would still be guilty of the grave sin of suicide before God which is an act that can not be justified. May God be with you.

Mark Quayle · Sep 9, 2021

You are not your own. You belong to Christ.

This life is not about you, but about Christ. What does HE say?

You seem to believe that even God could not cure you. Well, there is nothing God cannot do. (No, I'm not suggesting that he will. For all I know he may have reasons for what is happening to you, that he has purposes in continuing.)

Your situation is beyond my comprehension, so no, I can't condemn nor instruct you in the way you should go. I am not in your shoes. But I will pray.

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 9, 2021

"...as you know it is wrong..."

I don't believe that. You do. But I'm willing to listen to any further explanation.

Wrong / right is very black and white and very unhelpful. In behavioural science, psychiatry and psychology we call this 'splitting' which can be part of a disease.

I know that some people may say they believe it is wrong, and I know some people interpret scripture with behaviours, but I don't think this way at all.

What I do know is this isn't a simple black and white issue. And frankly my opinion is your answer is very stigmatising and could be violent, but I totally accept your position if professing your religion.

Ponder. If it is not wrong for a person to die of a heat attack due to an unavoidable symptom of a health condition, and if suicidal behaviour is another unavoidable symptom of a health condition (which some stigmatising people do not understand either by willful ignorance or lacking capacity to learn) then what is the difference?

Perhaps the difference is your judgement?

Silverback · Sep 9, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Good day all.

Do I need a trigger warning here? I dunno. I'll use one and those who wish to engage can read below.

TW - discusses suicidal ideations
.
.
.
.
.
To be clear, this isn't merely a general debate, it's rather personal to me. But sure, debate away.

I have disabilities, some extremely chronic which affects my basic daily functioning. I'm incredibly long term isolated which has been extremely traumatic. Trauma causes brain damage. Isolation causes brain damage. Furthering complex disability.

I have experienced Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and other neurodevelopmental / neurodiverse / neurodivergent conditions, all of my life. I have a complex of diagnoses.

I don't receive any appropriate treatment or support. I have now given up hope that I ever will. I think this radical acceptance, and seeing hope as chronic toxic positivity, has led me to consider I've been in denial for many years.

I unfortunately , and this is very real for me which can't be merely 'thought' or prayed away, have experienced suicidal ideation since I was about 4 years old. I'm nearly 50 now.

Last 10 years, suicidal ideation has been chronic. Last 12 months, a part of an almost entirely disabling experience.

Here's the part you may ponder - I'm not physically disabled. I'm able bodied. I could get up and walk over the horizon if I was able, some days I function well, but majority of days it's simply not possible. The brain and central nervous system is of course physical, and trauma, the conditions I am diagnosed with do affect differences at cellular level. Some will never recover or improve. They will continue declining.

A matter of fact is suicidal behaviour is a symptom of my conditions, as per the APA DSM, and of course my very real life experience.

So I'm beginning to realise that suicide in my case could be rationalised as the terminal outcome of illness. Just like any other disease.

I would never take my own life alone, I cannot leave my body to be found, I cannot cause my friends, family, my community to experience the shock, trauma, grief and expect others to fix everything that I left behind.

So, and please be compassionate, I am seriously considering travelling for assisted dying with dignity.

However this consideration is obviously making me think about how this will be recieved by my church (C of E). I know they perform full Christian services for funerals of those who commit suicide. I also know the church currently does not agree with assisted dying.

If I were to do that, it would be abroad. I can either administer a lethal injection under supervision, sedated perhaps or not, or the clinician would do so. This would depend on various factors.

So this is my dilemma. If upwards of 70% of adults with some of my conditions die from the terminal symptom of suicidal behaviour, considering I have multiple diagnoses increasing my risk, is assisted, responsible, planned assisted dying any better or viewed any differently?

The grounds of my actions would be incurable suffering. There is no treatment, medication, appropriate support, therapy that will change the cells in my brain.

I'll await your responses with interest.

Thank you.

I sympathize with you, I have at times suicidal thoughts, and have since about age 8 or so.

I escaped my situation, if I had not, I would have blown my brains out in my late teenage years...I have no doubt of it.

I suffer now from PTSD, anxiety, and depression. I also have a myriad of physical problems.

I tell myself two things when these thoughts are so intrusive, that this life is but a whisper when compared to eternity, and that my life is not my own, it was bought with a price.

This gives me peace, and helps me to cope.

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
"...as you know it is wrong..."

I don't believe that. You do. But I'm willing to listen to any further explanation.

Wrong / right is very black and white and very unhelpful. In behavioural science, psychiatry and psychology we call this 'splitting' which can be part of a disease.

I know that some people may say they believe it is wrong, and I know some people interpret scripture with behaviours, but I don't think this way at all.

What I do know is this isn't a simple black and white issue. And frankly my opinion is your answer is very stigmatising and could be violent, but I totally accept your position if professing your religion.

Ponder. If it is not wrong for a person to die of a heat attack due to an unavoidable symptom of a health condition, and if suicidal behaviour is another unavoidable symptom of a health condition (which some stigmatising people do not understand either by willful ignorance or lacking capacity to learn) then what is the difference?

Perhaps the difference is your judgement?

I see, I thought that was the position of your faith community and you agreed but that is not the case.

To me (and this comes from my Church which I agree with) all knowingly chosen human acts are either good or evil, there is no neutral with them at all, and they can be strictly categorized this way. All euthanasia in the sense you defined above would be an evil act in itself, without regard to any circumstances.

With the heart attack it is not knowingly chosen and so is in reference to human acts amoral. If suicide is not truly chosen in a moment then while wrong the person would not have the guilt of a grave offense against them, for an act must be knowingly (intellect) chosen (will). The difference is that which is what I mentioned in your case as laid out above: you can act against and not travel. You would not otherwise do it and so if you do travel for it then it is knowingly chosen and not simply some inevitability. The ideation might (big might, considering what Christ does in a soul) be inevitable but doing it is not.

Mark Quayle · Sep 9, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
I see, I thought that was the position of your faith community and you agreed but that is not the case.

To me (and this comes from my Church which I agree with) all knowingly chosen human acts are either good or evil, there is no neutral with them at all, and they can be strictly categorized this way. All euthanasia in the sense you defined above would be an evil act in itself, without regard to any circumstances.

With the heart attack it is not knowingly chosen and so is in reference to human acts amoral. If suicide is not truly chosen in a moment then while wrong the person would not have the guilt of a grave offense against them, for an act must be knowingly (intellect) chosen (will). The difference is that which is what I mentioned in your case as laid out above: you can act against and not travel. You would not otherwise do it and so if you do travel for it then it is knowingly chosen and not simply some inevitability. The ideation might (big might, considering what Christ does in a soul) be inevitable but doing it is not.

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
"...as you know it is wrong..."

I don't believe that. You do. But I'm willing to listen to any further explanation.

Wrong / right is very black and white and very unhelpful. In behavioural science, psychiatry and psychology we call this 'splitting' which can be part of a disease.

I know that some people may say they believe it is wrong, and I know some people interpret scripture with behaviours, but I don't think this way at all.

What I do know is this isn't a simple black and white issue. And frankly my opinion is your answer is very stigmatising and could be violent, but I totally accept your position if professing your religion.

Ponder. If it is not wrong for a person to die of a heat attack due to an unavoidable symptom of a health condition, and if suicidal behaviour is another unavoidable symptom of a health condition (which some stigmatising people do not understand either by willful ignorance or lacking capacity to learn) then what is the difference?

Perhaps the difference is your judgement?

In the end, the judgement is made by God, not by the one who sinned, nor by the believer who condemned the sinner. By God, who looks on the heart; by God, against whom sin is done.

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
In the end, the judgement is made by God, not by the one who sinned, nor by the believer who condemned the sinner. By God, who looks on the heart; by God, against whom sin is done.

Amen.

rebornfree · Sep 9, 2021

Hello ChristopherintheDepths, yours is a really sad post and I'm very sorry to hear of your condition. I hope you get sensitive and kind replies.

Before mentioning your condition may I ask if you have ever received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour? I mean have you repented of your sins (we are all sinners), believed that Jesus died for them and personally accepted His death in your place? That is the most important decision any of us will face. If we do accept His death in our place we are born again into a relationship with Him, and we live our lives for Him and know His love and presence in our lives. Jesus spoke of streams of living water flowing from us by which He meant the Holy Spirit (John 7 v 38, 39). If you have not done that may I encourage you to do so now? That will put your spiritual house in order and you can have a depth of relationship with God which is not possible without being born again (John 3 v 1-21).

The very same God is a healer and your issue, however difficult and sad it may seem to us, is not beyond Him. He keeps the universe running but knows when each sparrow hops to the ground. He is that amazing. So I think the next thing to do is to pray for your healing. I think I understand a little of what you mean about not being physically disabled but having chronic conditions. PTSD is serious and you say that you have complex symptoms as well as other neurological conditions. Still these are not beyond God's help. I also think that it is important to get medical help. Just pray about it first. Also if you are ever desperate there are the Samaritans, and other helplines, so please use them too and of course talk to your church leaders and ask them to pray for you.

Now as to the ethical debate here. Your post comes from a scientific/secular viewpoint. I watched part of the debate in the House of Commons, on assisted dying, a few years ago and, while some of the personal experiences recounted were sad, I agree with the outcome that it should not be made law. Some arguments were around the possibilities of it being abused but my chief objection to it, and thankfulness that it isn't law here, is that it takes no account of eternity or of God Himself. Our belief as Christians is that this life is not the end. We can spend eternity with the Lord in complete bliss, where '...There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain...' (Rev 21 ,v 4b), or not and the alternative is not good. So ending your, or anyone else's, life is not ending. It is moving it to Heaven or hell. Please think carefully and prayerfully about these issues.

I am wary of the idea of suicide being

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
rationalised as the terminal outcome of illness

because it seems to make it more acceptable and, as I've said above, this life is not the end. However I think we need to be very loving and compassionate to those who feel that they want to end their lives and provide all the support we can. But whatever the world (life without Jesus at the centre) can offer there is nothing like the power of Almighty God.

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
The grounds of my actions would be incurable suffering. There is no treatment, medication, appropriate support, therapy that will change the cells in my brain.

I would question that. Anti-depressants affect neuron activity and I also believe that the right sort of counselling can benefit some people with PTSD. More important though is that the statement takes no account of the power of God. Therefore I don't accept the reasoning that the options are continuing to suffer or assisted dying. There is a third one: bringing God into the situation and trusting Him. You may find that He heals you directly or He may guide you into the correct medical help. I would just pray about the treatment though to be sure it is consistent with the Lord's will for you.

I'm sorry that you are in this situation, but there is hope and I will say a prayer for you.

Jeshu · Sep 9, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Good day all.

Do I need a trigger warning here? I dunno. I'll use one and those who wish to engage can read below.

TW - discusses suicidal ideations
.
.
.
.
.
To be clear, this isn't merely a general debate, it's rather personal to me. But sure, debate away.

I have disabilities, some extremely chronic which affects my basic daily functioning. I'm incredibly long term isolated which has been extremely traumatic. Trauma causes brain damage. Isolation causes brain damage. Furthering complex disability.

I have experienced Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and other neurodevelopmental / neurodiverse / neurodivergent conditions, all of my life. I have a complex of diagnoses.

I don't receive any appropriate treatment or support. I have now given up hope that I ever will. I think this radical acceptance, and seeing hope as chronic toxic positivity, has led me to consider I've been in denial for many years.

I unfortunately , and this is very real for me which can't be merely 'thought' or prayed away, have experienced suicidal ideation since I was about 4 years old. I'm nearly 50 now.

Last 10 years, suicidal ideation has been chronic. Last 12 months, a part of an almost entirely disabling experience.

Here's the part you may ponder - I'm not physically disabled. I'm able bodied. I could get up and walk over the horizon if I was able, some days I function well, but majority of days it's simply not possible. The brain and central nervous system is of course physical, and trauma, the conditions I am diagnosed with do affect differences at cellular level. Some will never recover or improve. They will continue declining.

A matter of fact is suicidal behaviour is a symptom of my conditions, as per the APA DSM, and of course my very real life experience.

So I'm beginning to realise that suicide in my case could be rationalised as the terminal outcome of illness. Just like any other disease.

I would never take my own life alone, I cannot leave my body to be found, I cannot cause my friends, family, my community to experience the shock, trauma, grief and expect others to fix everything that I left behind.

So, and please be compassionate, I am seriously considering travelling for assisted dying with dignity.

However this consideration is obviously making me think about how this will be recieved by my church (C of E). I know they perform full Christian services for funerals of those who commit suicide. I also know the church currently does not agree with assisted dying.

If I were to do that, it would be abroad. I can either administer a lethal injection under supervision, sedated perhaps or not, or the clinician would do so. This would depend on various factors.

So this is my dilemma. If upwards of 70% of adults with some of my conditions die from the terminal symptom of suicidal behaviour, considering I have multiple diagnoses increasing my risk, is assisted, responsible, planned assisted dying any better or viewed any differently?

The grounds of my actions would be incurable suffering. There is no treatment, medication, appropriate support, therapy that will change the cells in my brain.

I'll await your responses with interest.

Thank you.

Dear suffering brother. Please understand in no way am i standing in judgement on you, i myself have often been suicidal and have really struggled with wanting to die for many years.

i have suffered from C.P.T.S.D like you, not saying mine is worse or better than yours, but the truth is this affliction has destroyed my life and brought me unbelievable anguish of heart and mind.

i also have schizo effective disorder that is bi polar and schizophrenic at the same time. Since my teens i have suffered from voices in my head and crippling bouts of depression, one bout of suicidal depression took seven years at one stage. My suffering has been immense.

So i understand where you are coming from. i know the desire living within you and i know it is justified to feel that way, suffering bad life at such levels should not be allowed, yet it happens.

Yet now comes the crunch. Please don't kill yourself. Honest there is a way out. And that is Jesus.

Jesus coming alive in my heart has destroyed the power of my C.P.T.S.D and also the power of my depression to hurt me like it used to.

Honest brother Jesus send me help. He taught me to sow the good seed and He changed my inner world and how i think about suffering completely around.

For years i had sown hopelessness, despair, fear, sadness, confusion, rage, unbelief, doubt, guilt and shame in my heart because i had believed the lies of my manic and depressed mind.\

Jesus showed me that agree with my bad life within had caused me all my troubles and that was why i now wanted to die.

Jesus showed me how in all my suffering life i had not found Jesus but was overcome by my inner bad life.

He then told me the secret to escaper my torture, not suicide, for that would lead only to more suffering, but rather newness of life in Him, where my old life died and new life came from Jesus in its place.

So that is what i did. i began to sow good life. Faith, love, hope, kindness, gentleness, self control, meekness, humbleness, thankfulness, caring, sharing and so trusting that having life in those inner realities would bring me good life instead of bad life.

And yes brother it really worked. It only took Jesus 4 years to build me out of my suicidal depression - even though my depressive bouts just kept going - and place me into my new life in Him. It is unbelievable what His loving truth can do

Sure He send others to help me. i came in contact with a person called Roland Bal, at that time he counselled people struggling with trauma in their lives. He helped me enormously with my C.P.T.S.D rage and trauma memories. (i was sexually assaulted and almost murdered at the age of 11, which is what triggered my psychosis, and my journey with depression began in earnest after that.)

i know Roland can help you as well. Regrettably he was forced to stop counselling for heath reasons, but he still sells 5 excellent ebooks on the subject, and many meditations that help people recover from suffering C.P.T.S.D. Honest brother you can be healed!

Resolving Complex Trauma

The good thing with Jesus is that your wish to die in your bad life will really happen. i know it might sound unbelievable, but it is really true, Jesus can make good life come out of bad life. And get rid of all that bad life hurting you now and replace it with life in his loving truth.

So please brother let The Word of God convict you from heading the wrong voices inside your heart. The ideas and thoughts that assisted suicide is the best way out lie to you, going to Jesus and letting Him transform you is the best and only way to go.

When you go to Jesus your bad life will die, instead of you dying in your bad life as you are planning now. That is what i would love to see - Jesus putting you to death in your bad life and raising you to new n
newness of life in Him and with Him.

Peace.

An invitation to The Chosen.

God's Love will not take or will
you to conform to rules or demand
which imprison, enslave, burn or kill you.

God's Love will not pervert what's Good
The Lord loves truthfully Wise and Good.
True Love was, is and always will be Good!

In God's Love you are free to be right!
In His love everything is good proper and kind.
He loves all who love good and true to rule!

His Love is caring, providing, and sharing.
His Love always enjoys and protects good life.
His love rules even when bad life has being in us!

Hear Jesus call - 'Come join up with us all!
Leave whatever ties you down and be free
loving good life with all God's own to be.'

To the rest in your heart God's asks
how long will you tarry in the darkness?
Please leave such bad existence within.

For life must not, no never should, or would, or could,
be forceful, rude, prideful, arrogant, selfish, lustful
or otherwise be untrue to God's loving truth.

Neither should life be hurting or ill,
hungry, oppressed, despised, hated
or otherwise have existence in wrong.

Please hand your Bad Life over to Jesus
Humbly ask for His Good Life back in return
and go love God, self and neighbour with Joy.

The Church knows that Jesus is coming soon
All bad life will be our shameful past then,
so please leave your bad life while you can!

Love

Quid est Veritas? · Sep 9, 2021

A number of points I would raise, but your post is almost completely accepting of the mechanical metaphor of medicine. This is merely a metaphor. Humans are not just biological machines, and we have no way of determining what part biologic nerve function plays to human perceptions, except by asking the person himself. The mind/body problem is still very much live, and the chemical imbalance theories for emotional states are not a done deal at all, medically (based mostly on reserpine's depressant effect and the equivocal efficacy of antidepressants as Kitsch demonstrated).

Psychiatric disease is not the same as biological disease. We can track the progression of heart disease say, by doing serial echo and ecg, we can see physical changes and adaptation. We cannot do this for psychiatric conditions, as we are dealing with the highly subjective and fMRI is a poor modality to do so. To just label it the natural progression of the disease that it ends in suicide is flawed therefore, as suicide itself is a human action and not passive disease progression. Simply put, we are not just the passive flotsam of genes and environment, but have our own will.

Euthanasia is not a form of treatment. It is a negation of treatment, a giving up. You cannot determine that no treatment will be effective, as you are assuming not only no current treatment, but also all possible new treatment modalities within your presumed natural lifespan will also be. How can you determine that? You are only 50, how much has the world and technology not changed in the last 20 years? The arguments to label something incurable or a natural progression or that the brain cells will not change is simply not tenable, from a standpoint of established biology. You can ascribe to a model of humans as merely product of our physiology, but that is only one way to interpret data that is not at all settled. Churches historically opposed Euthanasia because it is not a natural end for a human, but humans taking things upon themselves. This is not allowing a disease to run its course, but an active intervention. The question is, is this treatment or not? Can you consider it treatment if in fact you are not improving the outcome, but negating it entirely by killing the organism? There is a mixing up of metaphor here, where people believe treatment and limiting suffering are the same thing, and treating very different pathologies as if equivalent under the label 'disease'.

Euthanasia is not treatment. It assumes that no improvements are possible, not just now currently, but for however many more years of natural life the person has. It is not really a medical treatment in my opinion, as it very much runs counter to the medical principle of non-maleficence, to not do harm. We have run up a lot of smoke and mirrors to medicalise it, but it is frankly just a form of suicide where someone is helping you do it. If you are not comfortable with killing yourself, for the shock and grief it leaves behind, why do you think this is a better option? It really is no different. You just implicated someone else in it.

Frankly, I would advise you to speak to your psychologist and try and work at it. Sometimes problems cannot be cured, but that doesn't mean they are terminal. Maybe you can dial down the feelings a bit, and improve the quality of your life. Medicine cannot always cure everything, and it is frustrating, but don't just throw in the towel. We can't solve all problems, sometimes the best to hope for is alleviation. Do you honestly think that no improvement is even possible, under any circumstances? No new cognitive therapies could be devised? All the current ones have been tried, and retried, and stuck to? No pharmaceutical adjunct could be discovered, and all possible permutations of current ones tried? I don't see how anyone could determine that. In euthanasia, you are not choosing an improvement of quality of life, but its negation. You are arguing not only that things will never get better, but that it is impossible it ever can in future; and that any potential positive event, meeting a loving partner or a fun day or something as basic as sunshine on your skin, is eclipsed and negated by the current suffering you experience. How on earth can that be determined? You can stop a conventional treatment, but there is no going back here.

From a religious standpoint, Jesus said to take up your cross and follow - not to give up when it got too difficult. It is the difference between Peter on a cross in Rome, and Judas on a tree in Judaea.

I'll pray for you, and sincerely hope you will discuss this with your psychologist and psychiatrist and think deeply on these things.

SkyWriting · Sep 9, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Good day all.

Do I need a trigger warning here? I dunno. I'll use one and those who wish to engage can read below.

TW - discusses suicidal ideations
.
.
.
.
.
To be clear, this isn't merely a general debate, it's rather personal to me. But sure, debate away.

I have disabilities, some extremely chronic which affects my basic daily functioning. I'm incredibly long term isolated which has been extremely traumatic. Trauma causes brain damage. Isolation causes brain damage. Furthering complex disability.

I have experienced Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and other neurodevelopmental / neurodiverse / neurodivergent conditions, all of my life. I have a complex of diagnoses.

I don't receive any appropriate treatment or support. I have now given up hope that I ever will. I think this radical acceptance, and seeing hope as chronic toxic positivity, has led me to consider I've been in denial for many years.

I unfortunately , and this is very real for me which can't be merely 'thought' or prayed away, have experienced suicidal ideation since I was about 4 years old. I'm nearly 50 now.

Last 10 years, suicidal ideation has been chronic. Last 12 months, a part of an almost entirely disabling experience.

Here's the part you may ponder - I'm not physically disabled. I'm able bodied. I could get up and walk over the horizon if I was able, some days I function well, but majority of days it's simply not possible. The brain and central nervous system is of course physical, and trauma, the conditions I am diagnosed with do affect differences at cellular level. Some will never recover or improve. They will continue declining.

A matter of fact is suicidal behaviour is a symptom of my conditions, as per the APA DSM, and of course my very real life experience.

So I'm beginning to realise that suicide in my case could be rationalised as the terminal outcome of illness. Just like any other disease.

I would never take my own life alone, I cannot leave my body to be found, I cannot cause my friends, family, my community to experience the shock, trauma, grief and expect others to fix everything that I left behind.

So, and please be compassionate, I am seriously considering travelling for assisted dying with dignity.

However this consideration is obviously making me think about how this will be recieved by my church (C of E). I know they perform full Christian services for funerals of those who commit suicide. I also know the church currently does not agree with assisted dying.

If I were to do that, it would be abroad. I can either administer a lethal injection under supervision, sedated perhaps or not, or the clinician would do so. This would depend on various factors.

So this is my dilemma. If upwards of 70% of adults with some of my conditions die from the terminal symptom of suicidal behaviour, considering I have multiple diagnoses increasing my risk, is assisted, responsible, planned assisted dying any better or viewed any differently?

The grounds of my actions would be incurable suffering. There is no treatment, medication, appropriate support, therapy that will change the cells in my brain.

I'll await your responses with interest.

Thank you.

A number of my relatives were still-born.
They might give you a hard time after you die.
It's a risky move to kill yourself.

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 10, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
I see...

I don't believe you do see at all, I believe you're repeating dangerous religious harm and lack understanding or your own independent thought.

I realise some Churches and people are very fundemental and I believe they're mentally ill without knowing it. We all have our own beliefs and experience. You probably disagree and that's your personal choice.

My practice of my faith is clearly very different to yours. And that's OK. Difference and diversity is interesting, however due to personal boundaries may I ask you to please cease your involvement in this thread further. I would appreciate that and your compassionate agreement to do so would be wonderful.

Thanks

Click to expand...

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
In the end, the judgement is made by God, not by the one who sinned, nor by the believer who condemned the sinner. By God, who looks on the heart; by God, against whom sin is done.

Abosulutey agree. And if I believe God won't see my act as a sin, that's between me and Him.

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 10, 2021

rebornfree said:
Hello ChristopherintheDepths, yours is a really sad post and I'm very sorry to hear of your condition. I hope you get sensitive and kind replies.

Before mentioning your condition may I ask if you have ever received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour? I mean have you repented of your sins (we are all sinners), believed that Jesus died for them and personally accepted His death in your place? That is the most important decision any of us will face. If we do accept His death in our place we are born again into a relationship with Him, and we live our lives for Him and know His love and presence in our lives. Jesus spoke of streams of living water flowing from us by which He meant the Holy Spirit (John 7 v 38, 39). If you have not done that may I encourage you to do so now? That will put your spiritual house in order and you can have a depth of relationship with God which is not possible without being born again (John 3 v 1-21).

The very same God is a healer and your issue, however difficult and sad it may seem to us, is not beyond Him. He keeps the universe running but knows when each sparrow hops to the ground. He is that amazing. So I think the next thing to do is to pray for your healing. I think I understand a little of what you mean about not being physically disabled but having chronic conditions. PTSD is serious and you say that you have complex symptoms as well as other neurological conditions. Still these are not beyond God's help. I also think that it is important to get medical help. Just pray about it first. Also if you are ever desperate there are the Samaritans, and other helplines, so please use them too and of course talk to your church leaders and ask them to pray for you.

Now as to the ethical debate here. Your post comes from a scientific/secular viewpoint. I watched part of the debate in the House of Commons, on assisted dying, a few years ago and, while some of the personal experiences recounted were sad, I agree with the outcome that it should not be made law. Some arguments were around the possibilities of it being abused but my chief objection to it, and thankfulness that it isn't law here, is that it takes no account of eternity or of God Himself. Our belief as Christians is that this life is not the end. We can spend eternity with the Lord in complete bliss, where '...There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain...' (Rev 21 ,v 4b), or not and the alternative is not good. So ending your, or anyone else's, life is not ending. It is moving it to Heaven or hell. Please think carefully and prayerfully about these issues.

I am wary of the idea of suicide being

because it seems to make it more acceptable and, as I've said above, this life is not the end. However I think we need to be very loving and compassionate to those who feel that they want to end their lives and provide all the support we can. But whatever the world (life without Jesus at the centre) can offer there is nothing like the power of Almighty God.

I would question that. Anti-depressants affect neuron activity and I also believe that the right sort of counselling can benefit some people with PTSD. More important though is that the statement takes no account of the power of God. Therefore I don't accept the reasoning that the options are continuing to suffer or assisted dying. There is a third one: bringing God into the situation and trusting Him. You may find that He heals you directly or He may guide you into the correct medical help. I would just pray about the treatment though to be sure it is consistent with the Lord's will for you.

I'm sorry that you are in this situation, but there is hope and I will say a prayer for you.

Hello, yes, since a child I have invited Jesus intot life, and I pray, but as a paraplegic won't magically grow limbs, my conditions will not dissapear.

I was raised in baptist churches, became PA to a military Padre during service, became confirmed in the Church of England and very nearly entered priesthood.

I'm not a member of a physical church due to accessibility needs and other factors.

Mark Quayle · Sep 10, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Abosulutey agree. And if I believe God won't see my act as a sin, that's between me and Him.

I agree with this to a point; however, there is no such thing as a private sin. What one member of the body of Christ does, affects the whole body.

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 10, 2021

Jeshu said:
Dear suffering brother. Please understand in no way am i standing in judgement on you, i myself have often been suicidal and have really struggled with wanting to die for many years.

i have suffered from C.P.T.S.D like you, not saying mine is worse or better than yours, but the truth is this affliction has destroyed my life and brought me unbelievable anguish of heart and mind.

i also have schizo effective disorder that is bi polar and schizophrenic at the same time. Since my teens i have suffered from voices in my head and crippling bouts of depression, one bout of suicidal depression took seven years at one stage. My suffering has been immense.

So i understand where you are coming from. i know the desire living within you and i know it is justified to feel that way, suffering bad life at such levels should not be allowed, yet it happens.

Yet now comes the crunch. Please don't kill yourself. Honest there is a way out. And that is Jesus.

Jesus coming alive in my heart has destroyed the power of my C.P.T.S.D and also the power of my depression to hurt me like it used to.

Honest brother Jesus send me help. He taught me to sow the good seed and He changed my inner world and how i think about suffering completely around.

For years i had sown hopelessness, despair, fear, sadness, confusion, rage, unbelief, doubt, guilt and shame in my heart because i had believed the lies of my manic and depressed mind.\

Jesus showed me that agree with my bad life within had caused me all my troubles and that was why i now wanted to die.

Jesus showed me how in all my suffering life i had not found Jesus but was overcome by my inner bad life.

He then told me the secret to escaper my torture, not suicide, for that would lead only to more suffering, but rather newness of life in Him, where my old life died and new life came from Jesus in its place.

So that is what i did. i began to sow good life. Faith, love, hope, kindness, gentleness, self control, meekness, humbleness, thankfulness, caring, sharing and so trusting that having life in those inner realities would bring me good life instead of bad life.

And yes brother it really worked. It only took Jesus 4 years to build me out of my suicidal depression - even though my depressive bouts just kept going - and place me into my new life in Him. It is unbelievable what His loving truth can do

Sure He send others to help me. i came in contact with a person called Roland Bal, at that time he counselled people struggling with trauma in their lives. He helped me enormously with my C.P.T.S.D rage and trauma memories. (i was sexually assaulted and almost murdered at the age of 11, which is what triggered my psychosis, and my journey with depression began in earnest after that.)

i know Roland can help you as well. Regrettably he was forced to stop counselling for heath reasons, but he still sells 5 excellent ebooks on the subject, and many meditations that help people recover from suffering C.P.T.S.D. Honest brother you can be healed!

Resolving Complex Trauma

The good thing with Jesus is that your wish to die in your bad life will really happen. i know it might sound unbelievable, but it is really true, Jesus can make good life come out of bad life. And get rid of all that bad life hurting you now and replace it with life in his loving truth.

So please brother let The Word of God convict you from heading the wrong voices inside your heart. The ideas and thoughts that assisted suicide is the best way out lie to you, going to Jesus and letting Him transform you is the best and only way to go.

When you go to Jesus your bad life will die, instead of you dying in your bad life as you are planning now. That is what i would love to see - Jesus putting you to death in your bad life and raising you to new n
newness of life in Him and with Him.

Peace.

An invitation to The Chosen.

God's Love will not take or will
you to conform to rules or demand
which imprison, enslave, burn or kill you.

God's Love will not pervert what's Good
The Lord loves truthfully Wise and Good.
True Love was, is and always will be Good!

In God's Love you are free to be right!
In His love everything is good proper and kind.
He loves all who love good and true to rule!

His Love is caring, providing, and sharing.
His Love always enjoys and protects good life.
His love rules even when bad life has being in us!

Hear Jesus call - 'Come join up with us all!
Leave whatever ties you down and be free
loving good life with all God's own to be.'

To the rest in your heart God's asks
how long will you tarry in the darkness?
Please leave such bad existence within.

For life must not, no never should, or would, or could,
be forceful, rude, prideful, arrogant, selfish, lustful
or otherwise be untrue to God's loving truth.

Neither should life be hurting or ill,
hungry, oppressed, despised, hated
or otherwise have existence in wrong.

Please hand your Bad Life over to Jesus
Humbly ask for His Good Life back in return
and go love God, self and neighbour with Joy.

The Church knows that Jesus is coming soon
All bad life will be our shameful past then,
so please leave your bad life while you can!

Love

Hello brother. Thank you for your well thought out response and sharing of personal experiences.

I totally get what you've said, I too have emerged from depressive suicidal behaviours, I too have used or accepted my faith and Jesus.

I'm currently not depressed, I have capacity, I have sound mind, perhaps I'm simply at a different stage to you, not in a hierarchy, not advanced, just different.

Despite everything I have done to maintain hope, which I only now see as toxic positivity and chronic delusion, I truly believe I have woken up to reality and I also believe it is Jesus yanking me up by my collar, inviting me to join him in eternity by assisted, dignified, compassionate dying.

Jeshu · Sep 10, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Despite everything I have done to maintain hope, which I only now see as toxic positivity and chronic delusion, I truly believe I have woken up to reality and I also believe it is Jesus yanking me up by my collar, inviting me to join him in eternity by assured dying.

Oh my dear brother what about 1 Corinthians 13:13, is that then not true for you?

" And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

The Word tells us that these three always remain. Love,faith and hope, yet you experienced hope as toxic?

i fully understand your desire to die from this life of suffering but how can the grave be the answer to living with Christ? Jesus says that He is the life, why would you think He means physically dying before you can attain that?

To be with Christ doesn't just happen after we die in the flesh, but needs to be true now already. You will not get anything you haven't got now, when you die, such is simply not true.

i know for sure you can let Jesus get you good life out of your bad life, that is really rubbing satan on his nose with his crap, for he will get your suffering life then instead of you. Each day satan makes me suffer i know Jesus will reward me for it with His loving goodness, if not today then in the future.

To grow faith, love and hope is precisely how you escape your bad life.

Praying Jesus show you that He is The Life, it is Him that you want, not death.

Peace.

ChristopherInTheDepths · Sep 10, 2021

Quid est Veritas? said:
A number of points I would raise, but your post is almost completely accepting of the mechanical metaphor of medicine. This is merely a metaphor. Humans are not just biological machines, and we have no way of determining what part biologic nerve function plays to human perceptions, except by asking the person himself. The mind/body problem is still very much live, and the chemical imbalance theories for emotional states are not a done deal at all, medically (based mostly on reserpine's depressant effect and the equivocal efficacy of antidepressants as Kitsch demonstrated).

Psychiatric disease is not the same as biological disease. We can track the progression of heart disease say, by doing serial echo and ecg, we can see physical changes and adaptation. We cannot do this for psychiatric conditions, as we are dealing with the highly subjective and fMRI is a poor modality to do so. To just label it the natural progression of the disease that it ends in suicide is flawed therefore, as suicide itself is a human action and not passive disease progression. Simply put, we are not just the passive flotsam of genes and environment, but have our own will.

Euthanasia is not a form of treatment. It is a negation of treatment, a giving up. You cannot determine that no treatment will be effective, as you are assuming not only no current treatment, but also all possible new treatment modalities within your presumed natural lifespan will also be. How can you determine that? You are only 50, how much has the world and technology not changed in the last 20 years? The arguments to label something incurable or a natural progression or that the brain cells will not change is simply not tenable, from a standpoint of established biology. You can ascribe to a model of humans as merely product of our physiology, but that is only one way to interpret data that is not at all settled. Churches historically opposed Euthanasia because it is not a natural end for a human, but humans taking things upon themselves. This is not allowing a disease to run its course, but an active intervention. The question is, is this treatment or not? Can you consider it treatment if in fact you are not improving the outcome, but negating it entirely by killing the organism? There is a mixing up of metaphor here, where people believe treatment and limiting suffering are the same thing, and treating very different pathologies as if equivalent under the label 'disease'.

Euthanasia is not treatment. It assumes that no improvements are possible, not just now currently, but for however many more years of natural life the person has. It is not really a medical treatment in my opinion, as it very much runs counter to the medical principle of non-maleficence, to not do harm. We have run up a lot of smoke and mirrors to medicalise it, but it is frankly just a form of suicide where someone is helping you do it. If you are not comfortable with killing yourself, for the shock and grief it leaves behind, why do you think this is a better option? It really is no different. You just implicated someone else in it.

Frankly, I would advise you to speak to your psychologist and try and work at it. Sometimes problems cannot be cured, but that doesn't mean they are terminal. Maybe you can dial down the feelings a bit, and improve the quality of your life. Medicine cannot always cure everything, and it is frustrating, but don't just throw in the towel. We can't solve all problems, sometimes the best to hope for is alleviation. Do you honestly think that no improvement is even possible, under any circumstances? No new cognitive therapies could be devised? All the current ones have been tried, and retried, and stuck to? No pharmaceutical adjunct could be discovered, and all possible permutations of current ones tried? I don't see how anyone could determine that. In euthanasia, you are not choosing an improvement of quality of life, but its negation. You are arguing not only that things will never get better, but that it is impossible it ever can in future; and that any potential positive event, meeting a loving partner or a fun day or something as basic as sunshine on your skin, is eclipsed and negated by the current suffering you experience. How on earth can that be determined? You can stop a conventional treatment, but there is no going back here.

From a religious standpoint, Jesus said to take up your cross and follow - not to give up when it got too difficult. It is the difference between Peter on a cross in Rome, and Judas on a tree in Judaea.

I'll pray for you, and sincerely hope you will discuss this with your psychologist and psychiatrist and think deeply on these things.

If I were able to access a professional psychologistbor psychiatrist suitable to my needs, I would, however barriers are in place so it's not going to happen and perhaps never will.

Your repainse was very interesting and I enjoyed reading it, mostly I agree with you but I also don't agree with some, and that's OK.

Thank you very much though, I really appreciate your input.

rebornfree · Sep 13, 2021

ChristopherInTheDepths said:
Hello, yes, since a child I have invited Jesus intot life, and I pray, but as a paraplegic won't magically grow limbs, my conditions will not dissapear.

I was raised in baptist churches, became PA to a military Padre during service, became confirmed in the Church of England and very nearly entered priesthood.

I'm not a member of a physical church due to accessibility needs and other factors.

Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry if I missed the fact that you are a paraplegic, and can understand the difficulties of physically going to church. I believe that the Church is the people - those of us who have accepted the Lord as our Saviour - and that websites like this and online sermons and services can be very helpful, as long as they are preaching the true gospel.

I believe that the Lord still heals today and that He has a future for you. I have had times when I have not wanted to go on living (because of mental/emotional rather than physical issues) but He has brought me through them. I hope you can trust Him and yield your future to Him whatever that might be, but He needs to be the first priority in our lives otherwise we are not letting Him be God (by definition). I'm sorry that you are suffering but I believe that He wants to help you and ease it, but it means trusting Him and doing it His way, which cannot, in my opinion, include assisted dying. I hope that helps some. It is difficult to know what someone else is going through and it is easy to make assumptions on forums like this when we don't actually know the person we're responding to. But I'm glad that you made contact with us here and hope that the various responses you are getting are helpful.

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