20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
You tell them that everlasting righteousness has been brought in while they live under an insane dictator, and repressive governments. And when you do, tell them that you are Amil and you don't believe that Jesus is coming to rule the nations with a rod of iron so no-one has to live under the conditions they are suffering from. They will really be impressed by the Amil position.

I think you need to go live in North Korea for awhile.

Everlasting righteousness won't occur the way you're thinking of it until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. But, you have the 70th week being fulfilled long before that. That contradicts what Daniel 9:24 says, which is that it would be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks.

This means that you need to reconsider what it means to bring in everlasting righteousness because your current understanding is clearly flawed.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Everlasting righteousness won't occur the way you're thinking of it until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. But, you have the 70th week being fulfilled long before that. That contradicts what Daniel 9:24 says, which is that it would be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks.

This means that you need to reconsider what it means to bring in everlasting righteousness because your current understanding is clearly flawed.

Before presenting questions and counters regarding Daniel 9's 70 weeks - first, preface with "in regards to the Jews and Jerusalem".

In regard to the Jews and Jerusalem, everlasting righteousness is imputed unto them when they (corporately speaking) embrace Jesus as their savior from their sins. Which is in Revelation 12:10, the middle part of the 7 year 70th week.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
There are a thousand years separation between the martyred tribulation saints physical resurrection and the physical rest of the dead resurrection (which would certainly include the wicked).

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection was Christ. We reign in life "in Christ." We rise upon death and reign because we have our part "in Christ."

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Guojing said:
I am not, but you amills are the ones claiming that Christ is reigning now on Earth, and want to claim that Psalms 103 is the current reality.

But when confronted with the presence of sickness among believers, you play "word games" with the healing promise given in Psalms 103:3 and Isaiah 33:24.

Amills cannot have their cake and eat it.

Where do Psalm 103:3 and Isaiah 33:24 say anything about Christ ruling on earth? They don't. It's complete speculation on your part and nothing more.

Let's look at passages that actually speak about Christ reigning and determine when He reigns from those passages.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Could this passage be any more clear? This was after His resurrection and just before His ascension when Jesus said all power was given to Him in heaven and in earth. How could He not be reigning when He has all power in heaven and earth? And why were His disciples worshiping Him if He wasn't reigning?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Again, could this passage be any more clear? It clearly indicates that Christ currently reigns "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named". And it indicates that God put all things under Christ's feet and "gave him to be the head over all things to the church". How can you say He is not reigning yet when He reigns over "all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named"?

This scriptures very explicitly teach that Christ reigns now. All you have are two verses that don't even mention Christ and certainly say nothing about Him ruling on the earth. Is that all you have? And why are you not accepting what passages like the ones I shared here teach?

keras · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
When do you think that will be fulfilled exactly?

In Eternity.
Everlasting Righteousness cannot be for the Millennium, as there will be many who reject Jesus when Satan is released near the end of the Mill. Revelation 20:7-9
Although; for all the rest of the Millennium, there will be no sin and righteousness will generally prevail.

Spiritual Jew said:
So, do you believe the end of the 70th week will occur "after the final Judgment"? I ask that because the prophecy has to be fulfilled during the 70 weeks, not after.

You do have a point, Daniel 9:24 does say the six tenets will come after the 70 'weeks' are completed. Which has to be when Jesus Returns.

The explanation is: Daniel 9:24 Consider the Word, here is the Vision, seventy times seven is marked out for your people and your holy city, then the six tenets.
Daniel was a Jew, he prayed for his people; Daniel 9:4-19, for Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem, verse 7
The Lord's response was for them, not for us gentiles, we do have a different role, as His faithful Christian peoples.

The Jewish role was to keep the holy Word and be the visible presence of His chosen peoples. But they rejected Jesus and now face punishment and only a remnant will survive. That remnant will receive the fulfilment of those six tenets when Jesus Returns. Zechariah 12:10-14
However; the final 7 years, the 70th 'week', will have worldwide repercussions, as the events prophesied in Revelation 8 to 19:10 take place.

But before Jesus Returns, it is we Christians, peoples from every race, nation and language, who are the Chosen ones. John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9
The Christians who held to their faith during all the testing time ahead, will join with those Jews, Jeremiah 50:4-5, and will go into the Millennium with Jesus, along with the resurrected martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4

We see in Zechariah 14:16-21, that there will be those peoples who fail to worship King Jesus and will be punished. Also at the end of the Mill, when Satan is released, many will be deceived and will attempt to fight Jesus.
Only at the final Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, will those six tenets be fully implemented and universal, for Eternity.

DavidPT · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Your position has been exposed multiple times on here and you have had no answer to the Historicist position in regard to that. Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential? Are these seventy years bonded together? Why would the seventy weeks not also be?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Every fair and honest theologian of all end-times views see “the seventy years” in Daniel 9:2 congruent and sequential, why would they see the "seventy weeks" any different?

Because of Israel’s apostasy, the prophet Jeremiah had foretold that the Jews would be delivered as captives into Babylon. In that alien land they would be confined for 70 years (Jeremiah 25:12; 29: 10). Surprise, surprise, the prophet’s prediction came accurately to pass. The period of the Babylonian captivity was 70 years (2 Chronicles 36:21; Daniel 9:2; Zechariah 1:12; 7:5).

Gary DeMar in a book fore-worded by J.C. Sproul asks a pertinent question here: “What right do we have to conclude that God would somehow change the way time is ordinarily kept when we come to the use of another period of ‘seventy’ in the same chapter?”

Lawyer and Bible scholar Philip Mauro (1859-1952), says: “Where periods of time are given beforehand in the prophecies of the Bible they always mean that the time-units composing the period named are continuous … We have no other way of describing and limiting a period of time than by stating the number of time-units (hours, days, months, or years) contained therein. It is therefore a necessary law of language that the time-units be understood as being connected together without a break.”

He adds: “in every other case in Scripture where God has foretold the measure of time within which a specified thing was to happen, the time-measure so indicated was intended to be taken in its plain and ordinary sense.

He continues: “We are bold, therefore, to lay it down as an absolute rule, admitting of no exceptions, that when a definite measure of time or space is specified by the number of units composing it, within which a certain event is to happen or a certain thing is to be found, the units of time or space which make up that measure are to be understood as running continuously and successively.”

He concludes: “‘Seventy years’ would invariably mean seventy continuous years; ‘seventy weeks’ would mean seventy continuous weeks; ‘seventy miles’ would mean seventy continuous miles.”

History shows that the 490 years are bonded together and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it as a unified time-period because (1) that is how it naturally works in every other explicit time-period prediction in Scripture, (2) history proves that it happened as it was predicted, (3) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown.

Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 unitary cohesive years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) begins with the start of Christ’s public ministry (AD 27) and sees the crucifixion half way through it (AD 30), which is the start of the clock of natural Israel’s probationary opportunity (40 yrs) to accept or reject the Messiah’s message and once-all-sufficient atonement. The concluding 3 ½ yrs saw Israel’s wanton rejection of the once-all-sufficient atonement, the rebellious continuation of the NOW abolished order of Old Testament sacrifice (which is “the overspreading of abominations”). The Church also received its public manifestation and baptism of fire at Pentecost and, in obedience to Christ’s commission, entered into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel to the (once darkened) nations that have NOW being open to the Gospel.

What you and some others continue to do is ignore the fact that all of Daniel 9:27 pertains to the 70th week, and not just some of it instead. The latter portion of that verse reveals how ludicrous your interpretation is since none of that could possibly be involving anything within 3.5 years of Christ going to the cross---meaning this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That is obviously meaning events having to do with the 2nd half of the 70th week. After all, verse 27 is obviously in regards to the 70th week. It therefore makes zero sense to be including events in verse 27 that have zero to do with the 70th week. That makes about as much sense as pouring gas on a fire in order to try and extinguish it.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
Before presenting questions and counters regarding Daniel 9's 70 weeks - first, preface with "in regards to the Jews and Jerusalem".

In regard to the Jews and Jerusalem, everlasting righteousness is imputed unto them when they (corporately speaking) embrace Jesus as their savior from their sins. Which is in Revelation 12:10, the middle part of the 7 year 70th week.

That has been available to them for almost 2,000 years now, so why do you put that off until the future? As I've told you several times before, Jews have been getting saved for a long time now. You postpone their salvation when scripture does not.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

How can you think that this verse refers to the future? Do you not think that "salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ" came long ago?

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Salvation through believing the gospel of Christ and the kingdom of God were already at hand when Jesus walked the earth. The gospel of Christ "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth". How can Revelation 12:10 be about anything besides that?

Also, that verse talks about the accuser, Satan, being cast down from heaven. That means he couldn't accuse anymore. Do you think he can accuse now? Paul taught otherwise.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

What is the answer to Paul's question "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? No one. Including Satan. There is no basis for claiming that Revelation 12:10 is only speaking of something that will occur in the future.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
What you and some others continue to do is ignore the fact that all of Daniel 9:27 pertains to the 70th week, and not just some of it instead.

How are we ignoring that when we don't believe that? It's a serious allegation to accuse someone of ignoring scripture. But, that isn't what we're doing. Instead, we're interpreting it differently than you are and not ignoring anything.

The latter portion of that verse reveals how ludicrous your interpretation is since none of that could possibly be involving anything within 3.5 years of Christ going to the cross---meaning this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That is obviously meaning events having to do with the 2nd half of the 70th week. After all, verse 27 is obviously in regards to the 70th week. It therefore makes zero sense to be including events in verse 27 that have zero to do with the 70th week. That makes about as much sense as pouring gas on a fire in order to try and extinguish it.

You think you have Daniel 9:24-27 all figured out, but can you tell me how "to make an end of sins" will be fulfilled? How will bringing in everlasting righteousness be fulfilled? How will anointing the most Holy be fulfilled?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

keras said:
In Eternity.
Everlasting Righteousness cannot be for the Millennium, as there will be many who reject Jesus when Satan is released near the end of the Mill. Revelation 20:7-9
Although; for all the rest of the Millennium, there will be no sin and righteousness will generally prevail.

Do you somehow not understand that the six things listed in Daniel 9:24, including bringing in everlasting righteousness, had to be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks? It very clearly says 70 weeks were given to fulfill the six things listed in that verse. But, you don't believe the 70th week ends when eternity is ushered in, you believe it ends 1000+ years before that. So, how do you reconcile this with your belief that the 70th week ends at Christ's return?

You do have a point, Daniel 9:24 does say the six tenets will come after the 70 'weeks' are completed. Which has to be when Jesus Returns.

The explanation is: Daniel 9:24 Consider the Word, here is the Vision, seventy times seven is marked out for your people and your holy city, then the six tenets.
Daniel was a Jew, he prayed for his people; Daniel 9:4-19, for Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem, verse 7
The Lord's response was for them, not for us gentiles, we do have a different role, as His faithful Christian peoples.

The Jewish role was to keep the holy Word and be the visible presence of His chosen peoples. But they rejected Jesus and now face punishment and only a remnant will survive. That remnant will receive the fulfilment of those six tenets when Jesus Returns. Zechariah 12:10-14

Wow, you changed your mind really fast here. You went from saying that the bringing in of everlasting righteousness will be fulfilled in eternity to now saying it will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. You need to make up your mind. Will it be when Jesus returns or in eternity?

Your explanation here for how it could be fulfilled when Jesus returns is far from convincing. In what sense will the remnant you're referring to receive everlasting righteousness when Jesus returns? Don't you always point out that no one receives immortality until after the thousand years which you believe will occur after Jesus returns?

But before Jesus Returns, it is we Christians, peoples from every race, nation and language, who are the Chosen ones. John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9
The Christians who held to their faith during all the testing time ahead, will join with those Jews, Jeremiah 50:4-5, and will go into the Millennium with Jesus, along with the resurrected martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4

We see in Zechariah 14:16-21, that there will be those peoples who fail to worship King Jesus and will be punished. Also at the end of the Mill, when Satan is released, many will be deceived and will attempt to fight Jesus.
Only at the final Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, will those six tenets be fully implemented and universal, for Eternity.

If those six tenets are not fully fulfilled until the final Judgment then that means you believe the 70th week ends at the final judgment and not at Christ's return.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Anyway in the millennium the sacrifices reveal to fallen humanity still on earth what the sacrifice of Jesus meant. They need to be taught of what is holy and what is profane. They need to learn how to live as people under the iron rule of the Lord through Israel.

Where does scripture teach that "in the millennium the sacrifices reveal to fallen humanity still on earth what the sacrifice of Jesus meant"?

keras · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
This scriptures very explicitly teach that Christ reigns now. All you have are two verses that don't even mention Christ and certainly say nothing about Him ruling on the earth. Is that all you have? And why are you not accepting what passages like the ones I shared here teach?

We reject your Amil teaching, as we have our eyes open to reality.
Satan is the prince of the world, he causes all the sin and pain to happen.
Proved by Matthew 4:8-9 where Satan offered his world powers to Jesus if He would worship him. Satan caused Jesus to die and is still able to cause mayhem in those people who allow it.
Only when Jesus Returns, will Satan be imprisoned and unable to deceive people, for the Millennium. He will have a little season near the end, but then its the end for him.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
What you and some others continue to do is ignore the fact that all of Daniel 9:27 pertains to the 70th week, and not just some of it instead. The latter portion of that verse reveals how ludicrous your interpretation is since none of that could possibly be involving anything within 3.5 years of Christ going to the cross---meaning this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That is obviously meaning events having to do with the 2nd half of the 70th week. After all, verse 27 is obviously in regards to the 70th week. It therefore makes zero sense to be including events in verse 27 that have zero to do with the 70th week. That makes about as much sense as pouring gas on a fire in order to try and extinguish it.

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

This whole passage is focused upon Calvary and the irreversible effect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. The first thing we see is that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

From this passage, it is clear that it is the nature and exercise and of these abominations that causes the desolation to occur. It is evidently the gross wickedness of these abominations that draws God’s wrath upon the temple. Also, for the fury of God to be justly focused on the temple (the center of Jewish worship), the Jewish people, who this prophecy was primarily directed towards, must perpetrate them. It cannot relate to the practices of others, especially the heathen, who had NO part in or responsible for or to the temple.

While the rebuilding of the city was to occur within the 70 weeks (the first 7 weeks specifically) the date of the final destruction of the temple – which resulted from the once all-sufficient sacrifice for sin (in the midst of the 70th week) as predicted in Daniel 9:24 – is NOT specified. It says, “for (or because of) the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its now obsolete ordinances).”

“The overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious continuing of the now abolished temple sacrifices by the Jews. And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

Hebrew scholar E.B. Pussey in his classic work ‘Daniel the Prophet’ interprets this passage directly from the original, “upon the pinnacle of abominations a desolator, and that, until decreed desolation be outpoured upon the desolated.”

He therefore expressly reveals that the abominations are the specific cause of the destruction of the temple and that it is when they have reached their pinnacle, and because they have reached their zenith or apex, which was 40 years after Calvary, that the destruction arrived.

Pussey rightly says, in relation to the actual identity of the abominations, “Only desecration from within could make it ‘a pinnacle of abominations’.” Therefore, we must conclude that the abominations related to false practices carried out by the Jews; and that these false practices where administered within the temple thus attracting the fury and wrath of God upon the temple. It can therefore point us to no other matter than the blasphemous continuation of the abolished sacrifices, in clear violation to God’s merciful once all-sufficient sacrifice.

The “desolation” is not within the 70 weeks, please read it. The desolation is the consequence of what happened in the midst of the week – Calvary. Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The duration of this desolation lasts until the Lord’s glorious Second Advent. This reading declares, “he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation.”

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

keras said:
We reject your Amil teaching, as we have our eyes open to reality.
Satan is the prince of the world, he causes all the sin and pain to happen.
Proved by Matthew 4:8-9 where Satan offered his world powers to Jesus if He would worship him. Satan caused Jesus to die and is still able to cause mayhem in those people who allow it.
Only when Jesus Returns, will Satan be imprisoned and unable to deceive people, for the Millennium. He will have a little season near the end, but then its the end for him.

Who is "we"? Please speak on your own behalf.

Why are you denigrating the power and influence of Christ and elevating the power and influence of Satan here? That runs contrary to Scripture. This is obviously a major dividing point between Amils and Premils.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

keras · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Your explanation here for how it could be fulfilled when Jesus returns is far from convincing. In what sense will the remnant you're referring to receive everlasting righteousness when Jesus returns? Don't you always point out that no one receives immortality until after the thousand years which you believe will occur after Jesus returns?

Of course only when disaster hits, will people who have set beliefs, finally understand the truths of Bible prophecy.

Those to whom Zechariah 12 applies will have their names Written in the Book of Life, therefore immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment.

Spiritual Jew said:
If those six tenets are not fully fulfilled until the final Judgment then that means you believe the 70th week ends at the final judgment and not at Christ's return.

You are being pedantic here. The 70th 'week' is over when Jesus Returns.
For the survivors of Daniels people, those six tenets will be true;
their rebellion stopped,
their sins brought to an end,
their iniquity expiated,
they will be everlasting righteous,
and their Most Holy Place, anointed.

After the Millennium, in Eternity; the rebellion, the sins, and the iniquity are history, never to be remembered.
The New heavens and earth will be a place of everlasting righteousness.
The most Holy Place, will be the Lord Himself. Revelation 21:22-24

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
Let's assume that for a moment.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group A---the dead, small and great----and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Group B---sea gave up the dead which were in it----and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group C---and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them----and they were judged every man according to their works.

With these 3 groups in mind let's now look at 1 Thessalonians 4 for a moment.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Group 1----the dead in Christ shall rise first

Group 2---we which are alive and remain

As to group 1, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

As to group 2, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

One major question though----those in group 2, how do they even end up among the dead in Revelation 20 to begin with if they are still alive when the 2nd coming takes place, thus put on bodily immortality at the time, and are never physically dead at any point? Thus they don't need to be bodily raised from the dead. Obviously, probably not to you though, any judgment and rewards involving the saved take place before the time of the great white throne judgment, and not during it instead. If it is meaning during the GWTJ one then has to explain how the raptured church ends up among the dead at the GWTJ.

Are you trying to argue that only those who are dead (and then resurrected) will be at the GWTJ? If so, what about those who are among "the camp of the saints" that survive until the end of Satan's little season? Do you think they will not need to stand before the throne to be judged? Didn't Paul say that everyone will have to give an account of themselves?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Does this passage somehow not apply to those who are still alive when Revelation 20:9 occurs? Why would they not have to give an account of themselves when everyone else does?

keras · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Who is "we"? Please speak on your own behalf.

We; is all who read Revelation 20 as a literal future time period and events.
Your lengthy posts do not prove your AMill belief.
What exactly is so abhorrent to you about Jesus physically reigning on earth for 1000 years, anyway?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

keras said:
Of course only when disaster hits, will people who have set beliefs, finally understand the truths of Bible prophecy.

Those to whom Zechariah 12 applies will have their names Written in the Book of Life, therefore immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment.

Zechariah 12? Do you acknowledge that Zechariah 12:10 applies to the actual people who pierced Jesus?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Do you place the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 at the time of Christ's crucifixion as scripture itself does?

You are being pedantic here. The 70th 'week' is over when Jesus Returns.

Of course you would think that when you know I've exposed a flaw in your doctrine which resulted in you changing your mind from one second to the next within the same post. You would love for me to not talk about this anymore, wouldn't you?

For the survivors of Daniels people, those six tenets will be true;
their rebellion stopped,
their sins brought to an end,
their iniquity expiated,
they will be everlasting righteous,
and their Most Holy Place, anointed.

Show me where the prophecy says anything about only applying to survivors?

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

keras said:
We; is all who read Revelation 20 as a literal future time period and events.
Your lengthy posts do not prove your AMill belief.
What exactly is so abhorrent to you about Jesus physically reigning on earth for 1000 years, anyway?

It is plainly and obviously not biblical. You or no Premil will (or can) answer the simple question that has been asked for years: "Where exactly in Revelation 20 or anywhere else does it say that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years?" That is because it is not there. It is man-made. Is foisted upon the inspired text. If I am wrong furnish the evidence. You have dodged this for years.

Amils believe in letting the text speak for itself.

You totally avoided the rest of my detailed post that forbids your opinion. You typically do that when it is irrefutable! Satan has clearly been bound since the First Advent. I suspect you realize that, thus your avoidance.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
The dead in Christ are ASLEEP!!!!

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who SLEEP in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

So, you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep? Does the following give the impression that the souls of the dead in Christ are sleeping?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

DavidPT · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
How are we ignoring that when we don't believe that?

And right there is the problem. You all don't believe it to be fact, though it is fact, thus you are ignoring that it is fact.

Spiritual Jew said:
And
You think you have Daniel 9:24-27 all figured out, but can you tell me how "to make an end of sins" will be fulfilled? How will bringing in everlasting righteousness be fulfilled? How will anointing the most Holy be fulfilled?

Some of it has already been fulfilled, some of it hasn't. For one, obviously everlasting righteousness is yet to be brought in. But if that is not a fact, why was Peter still looking for a place and a time where righteousness dwells? Would not that righteousness involve everlasting righteousness? Is one to believe that there are two types of everlasting righteous, where one has already been brought in and that the 2nd one is brought in with the arrival of the NHNE?

Seriously, I don't understand what the issue is? Some of you act as if there is only one coming rather than two. It's simple then. It requires both comings in order to fulfill the 70 weeks. Of course though, I don't blame some of you for rejecting a gap if it's supposed to involve what some take it to involve, such as a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, animal sacrificing resuming then being put to an end in the middle of the final week. There may have been a time in the past when I too bought into that idea, but I no longer do, yet I'm still 100% convinced there is a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks. But that is not the only way to understand some of these things. It doesn't have to involve literal events.

There is a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks. If not between the 69th and 70th week, it would be in the middle of the 70th week instead. Looking at it like the latter would still mean that Christ is meant in the midst of the week, but that what He accomplished in the midst of the week, one comes on the scene following a long gap and makes himself out to be God instead, and that he sets out to spiritually destroy what all Christ accomplished at the time. One should be thinking 2 Thessalonians 2, the 42 month reign of the beast, to name a few. None of those things are involving literal rebuilt temples though there are some that claim it does.

Assuming a gap in the middle of the week rather than between the 69th and 70th week, the text indicates that the one fulfilling the midst of the week, that that one shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. That would be fulfilled like such, assuming a gap in the midst of the week. He confirms the covenant with many for 3.5 years leading up to His death. He confirms the remaining 3.5 years with many during the 42 month reign of the beast, since they choose death over life by refusing to worship the beast and continue worshiping Him instead, all the way to their deaths, IOW, in the midst of great tribulation being pronounced upon them by the beast and it's followers.

Maybe a gap works better in the middle of the 70th week rather than between the 69th and 70 week. I can't make up my mind, but what I have made my mind up about, there is a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks, and since all of Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week, that alone undeniably proves it to me.

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