Zephaniah

Lost4words · Aug 26, 2021

keras said:
And; of course, you have no leg to stand on, as the prophesies I posted prove the devastation of the holy Land and the destruction of our modern infrastructure by a massive CME sunstrike. Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

Does not prove it at all!!

Its just YOUR interpretation of said scriptures. Nothing more!

eclipsenow · Aug 26, 2021

Timtofly said:
Sounds about even, when you have prophecied failure in regards to his post.

First, straight up Preterism is a heresy and against forum rules. I have explained this to him and asked him not to call me a Preterist. He either just doesn't know or just doesn't care - or a bit of both. He's like that.

Second, I didn't 'prophecy' anything. I just said based on his unfortunately habit of ignoring the NT, or bashing the NT into 'shape' based on his reading of the OT, that there is zero evidence for his schema. Therefore I have zero confidence that anything he's talking about will eventuate.

eclipsenow · Aug 26, 2021

keras said:
That is preterism as I see it, as you also reject the Millennium.
It is only total wacko's who deny the Return of Jesus.

No - it's Full Preterists that deny the Return of Jesus. It's your ineptness and ignorance that makes you write 'what it means to me'. I know you despise this inconvenient thing called 'theology' that gets in your way when you want to twist the bible to your Sci-Fi ends. But maybe if you read some theology - and got a clue - a lot of your problems would just go away?
Maybe if you had some theology behind you you might not have been caught up in that 2012 false prophecy junk?

Anyway, this is the ACTUAL meaning of Full Preterism - do try to remember it. I know it's hard, but maybe if you have a warm glass of milk and get to bed early - this time it will stick.

Full preterism[edit]

Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.
Preterism - Wikipedia

keras · Aug 26, 2021

More truths from Zephaniah:

Zephaniah 3:1-13 Woe to all that is filthy and defiled, woe to all who refuse to heed God’s warning. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.

The Lord has judged and punished mankind before, but they continue on in their evil deeds and show no shame for it.

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, for the Day that I execute justice, for I will pour out the fire of My wrath and the whole earth will be affected. 2 Peter 3:7

On that Day, the Holy Land shall be cleared of all its proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain, those who never practice evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and no one will disturb them. My righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. Isaiah 66:18-21

They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. Psalms 106:47
Revelation 7:9…I saw a vast uncountable throng of people from every race and language, in front of Mt Zion, all in white robes and waving palm branches. They shouted: Victory to our God who sits on the Throne and to the Lamb.

Zephaniah 3:14-18 Shout in triumph you Land of Zion, sing for joy, you daughter of Jerusalem, for the Lord has revoked your sins and swept away your enemies. He is once more with you and you need never again fear disaster. Isaiah 66:14

This is the message to all who trust in their Creator: Do not be afraid on the Day of Judgement against My enemies, for I am in your midst and will keep you safe.
[In your midst: the same way as He was with the ancient Israelites. The physical Return of Jesus will come later, after all that is prophesied before that takes place.]

Zephaniah 3:19-20 Be sure that at that time, the Lord will deal with all who have opposed Him and My people will no longer endure reproach.

The Lord will show His love for His own people and will rejoice over them. He will rescue the lost and gather the dispersed into their rightful heritage. Psalms 107

When the Lord establishes His people into all of the Holy Land, all the world will be amazed at the great blessings they have received. Ezekiel 34:11-31

Psalm 126:1-3 When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were as a people renewed in health. Our mouths were full of laughter and we sang for joy! The rest of the world said: The Lord God has done great things for them. And we rejoiced!
Reference: REB, KJV, CJB. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.

eclipsenow · Aug 26, 2021

keras said:
Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, for the Day that I execute justice, for I will pour out the fire of My wrath and the whole earth will be affected. 2 Peter 3:7

2 Pet 3:7
3:7 by the same word. The same divine word that created the world and brought judgment at the Flood. Whether manifested by water or fire, the role of God’s all-powerful word in creation, in the Flood, and in final judgment is stressed.

stored up for fire. Sodom and Gomorrah serve for Peter as a paradigm of final fiery judgment (2:6). Although this picture of a universal inferno at the last judgment is unique to Peter, the idea of divine judgment by fire is common in the Old Testament (e.g., Deut. 32:22; Is. 66:15, 16; Mal. 4:1) and is found in the New Testament as well (e.g., Matt. 3:12; 1 Cor. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:7, 8).
Bible Gateway passage: Zephaniah 3 - New International Version

Basically, this 'Great Firey Day' you want to portray as something out of a Sci-Fi movie removes the most important character - the Lord Jesus.

You have ignored this verse before, but I record this for any lurkers.

Fire is a symbol of God's judgement.
ANYONE who tries to read the OT prophets objectively and clearly will see that they really ARE concerned - mostly - with God's judgement on the OT nations around Israel - and then on Israel herself. Actual eschatological verses about our future are rare. But the OT "Day of the Lord" in fire and judgement is a shadow of the real judgement to come.

The NT shows the reality will be that Jesus himself will return, with angels, with fire, and with eternal judgement all in the one go! There's just no separating this stuff out into Nicolas Cage's "Knowing." (Terrible movie anyway.)

That day = Jesus, Angels, Fire, everlasting judgement

Attempting to rip this stuff apart by just saying "Oh well, I've got all these OT prophets to show you now!" is utterly irrelevant and an attempted dodge away from the reality these verses are clearly describing.

2 Thess 1:7
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

keras · Aug 26, 2021

eclipsenow said:
The NT shows the reality will be that Jesus himself will return, with angels, with fire, and with eternal judgement all in the one go!

This idea is contrary to the Prophesies and is simply illogical.
The three definitive prophesies which describe Jesus Return, do not say He will use fire then. Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

The Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies, as Amos 1 & 2:1-5 clearly say. It will strike the earth unexpectedly and will take out all our modern infrastructure, clearing the way for a One World Govt to be formed.
But the faithful Christian peoples will migrate to and live in all of the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, but has never yet had.

eclipsenow · Aug 26, 2021

keras said:
This idea is contrary to the Prophesies and is simply illogical.

It's perfectly logical, as the Son of Man returns and divides the sheep and goats into ETERNAL fire
It's perfectly logical, as it is what the NT actually teaches when you check out all the THAT DAY verses! There's no way to divide up this clear verse from 2 Thessalonians - no matter how hard you hit it with an irrelevant verse from the OT about a local judgement back then.

It's perfectly logical and consistent with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows FIRE, the LORD, the SURPRISE, the EARTH LAID BARE = DESTROYED, EVERYTHING DESTROYED, NHNE all on "the day of judgement" and "The day of God" and "The day of the Lord" and "That day" - all phrases for the one day. You cannot divide them up into different days because the FIRE isn't just going to destroy a few billion people on the surface. No - this is almost a metaphor for the cleansing melting rebirth of this whole REALITY!

The fire comes with the Lord Jesus, like a thief, and ushers in the NHNE and judgement and rescue - all together.

7. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.....
....But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

keras · Aug 27, 2021

eclipsenow said:
The fire comes with the Lord Jesus, like a thief, and ushers in the NHNE and judgement and rescue - all together.

This idea is so contrary to what the Bible Prophets have told us, that to believe in it places one on the outer fringe of end times eschatology.

You missed a very important statement in 2 Thess 1:10:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire. Then he will mete out punishment to those who refuse to acknowledge God and who will not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, cut off from the presence of God.
When, on that great Day He comes to reveal His glory amongst His own and His majesty to all believers.

Do not confuse this passage with the Return of Jesus in His glory. He does NOT come in fire then, or punish all the ungodly. This time, which is at the Sixth Seal event, He reveals Himself only to those who believe in Him and keep His Laws. Isaiah 24:23, Zechariah 9:14-17

eclipsenow · Aug 27, 2021

keras said:
This idea is so contrary to

Will you stop that?
The "idea" isn't contrary to it - the VERSE IS!
You haven't figured out how to read this verse yet have you?

Oh, now here we go... this is more like it... actually discussing the NT verse for once...

You missed a very important statement in 2 Thess 1:10:

And you quote a really bad version.
That's disappointing.

let's try the ESV: and we see it again: JESUS, FIRE, ANGELS, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, SALVATION all together.

7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do not confuse this passage with the Return of Jesus in His glory.

Why not? The passage has CLEARLY stated that WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALLED.. WITH MIGHTY ANGELS... IN FLAMING FIRE....

He does NOT come in fire then, or punish all the ungodly.

Yes he does. The passage just said so! So did 2 Peter 3.

This time, which is at the Sixth Seal event, He reveals Himself only to those who believe in Him and keep His Laws. Isaiah 24:23, Zechariah 9:14-17

RUBBISH!
Absolutely twisted rubbish.
FAIL!
This fails high school English.
I doubt those OT verses are even about future eschatology - let alone having the relevance or authority to tear up and split in half the clearest statements we have in the NT about HOW the Lord Jesus will be revealed.

keras · Aug 27, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Why not? The passage has CLEARLY stated that WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALLED.. WITH MIGHTY ANGELS... IN FLAMING FIRE....

2 Thess 1:6-10 is NOT clear that it is the Return.
It isn't and you are wrong because the Lord is not seen on His Day of fiery wrath, in fact He SENDS the fire, from the sun; which will destroy His enemies. Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6, Malachi 4:1-3,+

A 'bad Bible version'? Do you mean one that doesn't suit your beliefs?
The KJV and the ESV are sufficiently obtuse and full of error to suit anyone's fanciful beliefs.

eclipsenow · Aug 27, 2021

keras said:
2 Thess 1:6-10 is NOT clear that it is the Return.

Yes it is.

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire"

"they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction... when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints"

It isn't and you are wrong because the Lord is not seen on His Day of fiery wrath

Yes he is! It's clear from these verses above.

Which part of "Jesus revealed" and "When HE comes on that day" don't you understand?

You just confirmed everything I say about your tactics. You just trotted off and collected your favourite prophecies about the fires of ancient wars. You ripped them out of context. You tried to destroy the plain meaning of 2 Thess above, and bashed 2 Thess with it. But there it is - still saying that the Lord Jesus returns with his mighty angels in flaming fire to judge for eternity. Just like the other verse we were discussing in this thread 2 Peter 3:10-13 ESV

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Would you look at that? It's like 2 Peter understands that these 'fires' are much more than a petty little CME. They're not planet-crust scorching, but UNIVERSE MELTING!

Shame. Your CME was almost shaping up as a nice Sci-Fi story. (Except don't do it with Nicholas Cage grimacing in 4 different flavours - trust me - it needs more than that!)

keras · Aug 27, 2021

keras said:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is NOT clear that it is the Return.

eclipsenow said:
Yes it is.

THAT, eclipsenow; is purely your opinion.
It refers to the Day the Lord will send fire to destroy the ungodly peoples in all of the holy Land. It does not say Jesus will Return then, it does not match with the actual prophesies that clearly describe the Return of Jesus in power and glory.
I have pointed out Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11-21, they don't mention any fire then. Your avoidance of this is an indictment against you.

eclipsenow said:
Which part of "Jesus revealed" and "When HE comes on that day" don't you understand?

As I said: the Lord will reveal Himself to His own people, amongst all believers; not yet to the world.
THAT is what 2 Thess 1:10 says. NOT as you like to think, His Return, which will come a few years later.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 27, 2021

keras said:
This idea is contrary to the Prophesies and is simply illogical.
The three definitive prophesies which describe Jesus Return, do not say He will use fire then. Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

Where do those say that He won't use fire? None of those specify the method in which He will take vengeance on His enemies when He returns (unless you think He will slay His enemies with a literal sword coming out of His mouth), so you can't use those to refute the claim that He will do it with fire. But 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 do specify how He will do it and they both say it will be with fire.

keras · Aug 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Where do those say that He won't use fire? None of those specify the method in which He will take vengeance on His enemies when He returns (unless you think He will slay His enemies with a literal sword coming out of His mouth), so you can't use those to refute the claim that He will do it with fire. But 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 do specify how He will do it and they both say it will be with fire.

Those three prophesies; specifically abut the Return, do not mention fire.
The only people Jesus will destroy at His Return, will be the armies of the Anti-Christ. He will do it by the power of His Word, causing a violent earthquake. Revelation 16:16-18
Their bodies are not burned. Revelation 19:17-18

The idea that when Jesus Returns, He will burn up the world and create a new heavens and earth, is quite wrong and a very bad exegesis of the Prophesies.

eclipsenow · Aug 27, 2021

keras said:
As I said: the Lord will reveal Himself to His own people, amongst all believers; not yet to the world.
THAT is what 2 Thess 1:10 says. NOT as you like to think, His Return, which will come a few years later.

You've just added to scripture - where is the 'amongst all believers'. Indeed, Rev 6 explains everyone will see the Lord when he returns - and they cry out "Who can stand" because none of God's enemies can! It's Judgement Day - the Lord has returned!

2 Thessalonians
What's the problem? Verse 6 - Christian persecution or 'trouble'.
What's the solution? When Jesus is revealed from heaven - with fire & angels - he will punish with everlasting destruction. It couldn't be clearer. See Matthew Henry commentary below at footnote.

2 Thessalonians
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Now 2 Peter.

Problem? Scoffers - saying “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
Note: EVEN THE SCOFFERS acknowledge that the message they are sceptical about is that when Jesus returns, THAT'S when things change!
Solution? Day of Lord = thief = SURPRISE = his 'coming' as noted above.

This is not some silly Sci-Fi 'firey day' - like an overblown nuclear war. This is the return of the Lord himself, the heavenly bodies being 'burned up' - and NHNE.

2 Peter 3:10-13 ESV
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

MATTHEW 13
Problem? Evil and those who cause it
Solution? The Son of Man returns to send out his angels

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

1 THESS 4
Problem? death
Solution? The Lord himself will return with the 'voice of the archangel'

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Get it yet? When the LORD HIMSELF returns, everything is 'burned'.
(But as we are talking about a New Heavens and New Earth, I highly doubt the text just means oxidised in CME)

FOOTNOTE: MATTHEW HENRY COMMENTARY on 2 Thess 1
[1.] That the Lord Jesus will in that day appear from heaven. Now the heavens retain him, they conceal him; but then he will be revealed and made manifest. He will come in all the pomp and power of the upper world, whence we look for the Saviour.

[2.] He will be revealed with his mighty angels (v. 7), or the angels of his power: these will attend upon him, to grace the solemnity of that great day of his appearance; they will be the ministers of his justice and mercy in that day; they will summon the criminals to his tribunal, and gather in the elect, and be employed in executing his sentence.

[3.] He will come in flaming fire, v. 8. A fire goeth before him, which shall consume his enemies. The earth, and all the works that are therein, shall be burnt up, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. This will be a trying fire, to try every man's work,—a refining fire, to purify the saints, who shall share in the purity, and partake of the felicity, of the new heaven and the new earth,—a consuming fire to the wicked. His light will be piercing, and his power consuming, to all those who in that day shall be found as chaff.
Matthew Henry: Commentary on the Whole Bible Volume VI (Acts to Revelation) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

keras · Aug 27, 2021

eclipsenow said:
You've just added to scripture - where is the 'amongst all believers'

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when on that great day he comes to reveal His glory amongst his own and his majesty among all believers and therefore among you, since you believed the testimony we brought to you. REBible No addition there.
This is not the Return, where all the world will see Jesus. It will be His Day of fiery wrath, when He will destroy the attackers of Israel and will also be our great test of faith, 1 Peter 4:12

Revelation 6:12-17 does not say anyone will actually see the Lord. The people will know that what is happening is the wrath of God.

eclipsenow said:
This is not some silly Sci-Fi 'firey day' - like an overblown nuclear war. This is the return of the Lord himself, the heavenly bodies being 'burned up' - and NHNE.

No it isn't, that idea conflicts with much scripture.
Jesus said there will be another time; like the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-44, and some will be taken, that is: killed and some will remain.
This truth alone is sufficient to refute your belief of total destruction then or when Jesus does Return.
Silly sci-fi fiery day? According to your ideas, a fair amount of the Bible must be sci-fi and of no value or use to us today.
Very scholarly of you, NOT.

eclipsenow · Aug 28, 2021

keras said:
2 Thessalonians 1:10 when on that great day he comes to reveal His glory amongst his own and his majesty among all believers and therefore among you, since you believed the testimony we brought to you. REBible

Yes - but that's verse 10 where the focus is how the PROBLEM - persecution of Christians - is addressed by us finally meeting Christ face to face and experiencing his majesty.

We were discussing what verses 6,7,8, and 9 meant - all of which discuss exactly the same event - the revealing of the Lord to ALL HUMANITY!

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction

Unbelievers get blazing fire and everlasting destruction
Believers get verse 10.

But it's the same event - the same answer to the problem of believers troubled by persecution. Jesus returns, and it's good for us, bad for them. Get it?

See? Exactly the same thing being discussed as MATTHEW 13 where angels go out, and fire is mentioned.

The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Unbelievers get the furnace with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Believers get to 'shine like the sun' (which is probably 7 times brighter - hint hint) in the kingdom of the father

No addition there.

I'm sorry - but there's just no room to separate out the angels, fire, and the Lord himself returning with eternal judgement and eternal reward in the NHNE. It's all part of the one package.

Revelation 6:12-17 does not say anyone will actually see the Lord. The people will know that what is happening is the wrath of God.

Are you pulling my leg right now? EVERYONE can see - especially the ungodly - who look up in sheer terror and call out in horror.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Year 4 English test: What are they hiding from?
Year 4 Answer: "the face of God - and the anger of the lamb"

It's not hard

keras · Aug 28, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Are you pulling my leg right now? EVERYONE can see - especially the ungodly - who look up in sheer terror and call out in horror.

So; will God on His Throne appear in the sky, at the same time as fire is raining down, earthquakes and devastation happens?
That is about as sci-fi as it gets.
I don't see that in the scriptures and I doubt if many others do either.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 It is just; that the Lord should balance the account by sending judgement to those who afflict you, to give those who love and serve Him relief, when Jesus comes to punish the ungodly, with His mighty host in blazing fire. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, but on that great Day His glory will be revealed to all true believers. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 18:7-15

This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

2 Peter 3:7 & 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. The heavens will disappear with a roar and flaming fire will bring all the earth to judgement. Malachi 4:1

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we deliberately persist in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies. Zephaniah 1:14-18

Psalms 110:5-6 The Lord at Your right hand – He crushes kings on the Day of His wrath. In majesty He judges the nations, causing destruction throughout the world. Psalms 97:2

Revelation 14:14-20 On a white cloud, I saw a figure like a man, wearing a gold crown and holding a sharp sickle. Put in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come to harvest the earth. Then the angel that has authority over fire, called to Him - ‘Swing Your sickle now, for the earth’s grapes are ripe and ready for harvest. So the grapes were gathered and thrown into the great winepress of the Lord’s wrath. The blood flowed from it for 200 miles. Isaiah 63:1-6, Zephaniah 1:17

Jeremiah 51:5-6 Israel and Judah are not left widowed by their God, by the Lord. But their Land is full of guilt, condemned by the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of Babylon, [Babylon: a metaphor for any godless nation] each person for himself or you will perish for her sins. For now comes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, He is paying her full recompense. Ezekiel 22:1-7, Revelation 18:4-8

Isaiah 17:1-10 Damascus will cease to be a city, just a heap of ruins forever desolate. On that Day, Jacobs strength will fade away, as when a reaper gathers the grain or as an olive tree is stripped at harvest and left with just a few berries. On that Day all will look to their Maker, all idols and the works of their hands are as rubbish. On that Day, your cities will be deserted and abandoned, because you have forgotten the Lord, your strength and protector. Jeremiah 9:12-13, Isaiah 6:11-12
Isaiah 17:12-14 Listen! It is the thunder of vast forces, like the roaring of mighty waters. Nations flee, driven before the storm like thistledown. At evening, all is terror, by morning all is gone. Such is the fate of those who conspire to attack us. Psalms 83, Isaiah 66:15-16 Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

These Bible verses describe the next prophesied event – how God sends His right hand man, Jesus, to ‘ harvest the world of His enemies, those who conspire to attack His people’ This is also the Sixth Seal judgement, reiterated and described in over 100 Bible prophecies. This worldwide judgement of fire accurately fits how the earth would be affected by an unprecedented Coronal Mass Ejection. But as Isaiah and many other prophets say, His righteous people will be protected.

eclipsenow · Aug 28, 2021

keras said:
So; will God on His Throne appear in the sky, at the same time as fire is raining down, earthquakes and devastation happens?
That is about as sci-fi as it gets.

The interesting thing is I don't read about earthquakes in these particular verses. I read about angels, Jesus, fire, eternal destruction and eternal blessing in the NHNE.

You're so busy reading irrelevant OT verses you cannot see what is right in front of your own eyes here, written in fairly clear language.

Good luck with explaining what went wrong when we're all still here in 2027!

This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

Well as I'm Amil you actually got that bit right. Instead it describes what's happening when the Lord returns, saves his people, JUDGES THE ENTIRE WORLD of people against God, and ushers in eternity. Not a mere 1000 years or 'long' time - but eternity. I mean, I've shown other verses that verify that 1000 is Jewish number symbolism for "a really long time" but even I wouldn't say they think 1000 means forever!

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction

It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

What do armies around Jerusalem have to do with anything? Read THIS verse for what it REALLY IS talking about! Honestly - stop trying to smash together verses that are about totally different things.

The problem? God's people are being troubled.
The solution? Jesus is revealed from heaven with powerful angels and blazing fire - and destroys God's enemies and is rejoiced in those who were suffering persecution - his friends.

It's not hard - it really isn't.

keras · Aug 28, 2021

eclipsenow said:
It's not hard - it really isn't.

You have still avoided the 3 clear prophesies about the Return, which do not say there will be fire then.
The Lord carries out His Judgement on the Nations and Reveals Himself to His People:
This will be the next prophesied event, the Return of Jesus in His glory comes later.
These Prophesies rove that the Lord is not yet present during and after He cleanses the holy Land:

1 Samuel 2:10 Those who oppose the Lord will be terrified, when from the heavens He thunders against them. The Lord is the judge, to the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 66:14 The Lord will make His power known to His servants and His fury felt among His enemies.

Ezekiel 7:9 Doom is upon you, a Day of panic and all will know the Lord has acted.

Jeremiah 12:14 The Lord says: I will uproot those evil neighbours who have encroached on the Land which I allotted to My people. I shall also uproot Judah as well.

Jeremiah 10:18 ...This time I shall throw out the whole population of the Land, I shall press them and squeeze them dry.

Isaiah 6:11-13 I asked: Lord how long? Until the land is made waste and cities are ruined and deserted. The Lord will drive people far away, the whole land will be one vast desolation. Only a stump remains, a holy seed in Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days, Israel and Judah will go in tears to Zion, in search of their God.

Ezekiel 34:29-31 When I rescue My people, they will know that I am the Lord.

Isaiah 60:1-3 Over you His glory will appear.

Ezekiel 36:23&37 I will reveal My holiness through you and you will know I am the Lord

Ezekiel 39:27 I shall make them exemplify My holiness for all to see.

Isaiah 61:3....a righteous people, planted in His Land – to display His glory.

Ezekiel 28:25 I will show My holiness in them, for all the nations to see.

Isaiah 33:5-6 The Lord dwells on high, He fills Zion with justice and righteousness.

Psalm 102:22 The Lord looks down, He sets free His people, they praise Him in Zion.

Jeremiah 50:28 I hear the voices of those who flee. They praise God in Zion.

Isaiah 49:8...on the Day of Deliverance I came to your aid.

Joel 2:27 You will know that I am present in Israel and that I am your God.

Ezekiel 20:42 You will know that I am the Lord, when you go home to Zion. .

Isaiah 52:6 My people will know My Name and know that it is I: the Lord who speaks.
Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

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