A desire for Eden rather than Heaven
- Thread starter Jamdoc
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That's a whatif that doesn't really have or need an answer. God declared the ending from the beginning. He already knew Jesus would obey, even if He didn't want to, He knew he'd submit to the Father's will.
It is our example, showing that yes we have free will, and obeying the father doesn't mean a lack of free will but a submission of our will to His.
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The reality is that Jesus could not exercise anything resembling free will, being God. In heaven, where there never will be sin, all individuals there will, likewise, be able to exercise their free wills just as Jesus did (not).
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For a person to really believe in “Hell” they have to believe in the Christian God. If you do not believe in the Christian God, you are not going to believe “Hell” really exists.
If you believe in a Benevolent Creator, “Hell” is not a problem, since heaven is your home, but “Hell” does cause some to take it very seriously and respond to the invitation sooner than later.
The sinner refusing to accept God’s Love (forgiveness) should not “Love” God since he/she is hell bound by God’s design.
People “Love” God with a Godly type Love automatically (a gratitude type Love) when they accept God’s forgiveness of their unbelievable huge debt (created by sin) as Jesus taught us: “He that is forgiven much Loves much”.
I promise you: God does not want you to be unhappy in heaven, but in heaven is like a huge “Love Feast”, but that “Love” is only Godly type Love. Islam tries the sell people on a carnal type “love” in their idea of a heaven (72 virgins), which is contrary to Godly type Love (unselfish and unconditional).
I am concerned about your understanding of Godly type Love and of your acceptance of God’s forgiveness of your unbelievable huge debt. Your gratitude should be overwhelming.
I might suggest getting involved with helping others or at least getting around Christians helping others.
Wow! A lot to deal with here.
Part of the reason we spend time on earth is to experience satan, sin, evil, carnal love, life without the Spirit, and so on. We do not need to experience those things in heaven.
If you have everything already, what is there to lust after? There is no tree of Knowledge (something you do not have), no satan to tempt you and no limited time in heaven.
The one thing you might be lacking in is, great Godly type Love, but is that something to “lust” after? Think about it, you unselfishly Love the apostle Paul less then He Loves you, so who is getting the short end of that stick?
Yes, there is no marriage in heaven, so is there a need to be competitive, jealous, and selfish? Those in heaven Love you unconditionally and unselfishly. You want to be with someone, will you can, because you are not taking them away from others, since time is not a factor.
Right now, you should have the indwelling Holy Spirit with you 24/7, but you physically do not see the Spirit, but in heave you will be able to see the Spirit Loving on you and you can Love on Him.
Would you be happier with the Islamic type heaven?
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God has the power, knowledge and ability to sin, but God also has the power and Love to control His desires, so out of His decision not to sin he does not sin.
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- Oct 22, 2019
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No that's not at all relevant or true. Many people believe in God but choose to hate him. They even know they'll go to hell, they may tell themselves unbiblical things about hell, but they accept going there. Plus it doesn't matter if they don't believe in hell, they're still going.
It's harder to have overwhelming gratitude at forgiveness when, at the present, I more regret ever being created in the first place (if I hadn't been created, there'd be no debt to be repaid) because I miss out on so much that is good and my "best" outcome is still unideal.
Don't worry too much I'm not a danger to myself, my life is not my own to take, I belong to Jesus, He bought me with His blood so He'll get me if that's what He wants. But, I still don't feel like I'm worth the price paid.
as for the self worth problem, knowing that scripture involving heaven has basically took a lot of my likes and dislikes and went contrary to them on purpose (even focusing on an activity I strongly dislike, singing), reinforces how little value I must have if nothing about that place has taken me into account.
Well I'm a cripple I don't really have the means to do much helping.
A lot harder to say when you've never experienced those things on earth at all, you just miss out on them now, and forever well at least your "carnal love" thing, I mean two becoming one flesh is part of God's intentional design and was part of the original plan. It's not sinful or evil and does not deserve to be lumped in as such. We are carnal, and after the resurrection, carnality will be a part of us forever. God meant us to have bodies. That part of the plan is not changing. Just the marriage part apparently.
No, because I can't love their God.
I don't love glory.
I never have.
I love Jesus because He exhibited the qualities in a person that I value most. Knowledge, compassion, meekness, humility, honesty, selflessness, commitment, and also a very human moment of weakness and vulnerability at Gethsemane.
I could not love God had I only known the old testament. In fact that was how I was introduced to Christianity and I rejected it when I was young, they might have been Catholic I can't remember, but to them Jesus was like a footnote "oh he's the son of God" that's all I knew about Him then. They never told me about who Jesus was and how He was and what He did for me. That was their failure. Their focus was on works and it never resonated with me. It took hearing about Jesus to click with me and make me think "who was this amazing person and how do I get to meet Him?"
Without Jesus nothing else matters, even a harem, what would it matter? It's God that makes a marriage and sex even good I'm convinced. I could have a harem, and still be wholly unsafisfied.
I could gorge myself on every food I've ever wanted to eat, and still not feel satiated.
I'm convinced that Hell wouldn't even have to be a place where you're tortured in fire to be miserable.
God could say, okay, you can have a place where you have everything you've ever wanted, wealth, big house, all the material possessions you've ever wanted and more that you didn't even know you wanted, a never ending banquet of all your favorite foods even ones that you didn't even know about, a harem so that you can have a different wife every day for the rest of eternity..
and you'd still feel completely empty, void, and miserable, and nothing would satisfy.
Because you don't have Christ.
I can get that far.
I just can't get to where Christ is the ONLY thing I need, I still want things WITH Christ, I want things in fellowship with Christ.
That is why my idea of perfection goes back to Eden, a man and woman together as lovers, WITH God.
if you removed God from that it'd be nothing. If you removed the woman from that, it'd still be something just feel incomplete, as in Genesis 2:18.
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classical5
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I used to feel as you do but not now. I don’t believe Heaven is just church 24/7. That doesn’t make sense.
We are a reflection (image) of God and I think that means our basic components will be retained in Heaven - our curiosity, desire to work and accomplish and overcome obstacles, need for love and friendship and companionship, even our interest in sex. And our free will. Those are innate traits in humanity. It doesn’t make sense that such creatures just sit in church all day.
I enjoy worship, sometimes it’s very emotional and uplifting, but sometimes it’s a chore, that will offend some but it’s the truth. I don’t want to go to church every day either.
And if all we do is worship then why are we given rewards based on our works?
It seems we will have jobs and responsibilities based on how we use our gifts on earth.
I believe there will be much more to Heaven than “going to church”.
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- Oct 22, 2019
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an interest in sex that cannot be fulfilled?
Matthew 22:30 kind of throws the idea of sex out the window, and even if, God said, well you don't need marriage anymore, just go have sex with any other citizen in heaven
That wouldn't be fulfilling since it'd be lacking the relationship.
Just go look around empty hookup culture and one night stands we have in our modern era, they're always chasing the high, never feeling fulfilled and truly happy.
The 3 major differences in Eden and Heaven or at least descriptions of Heaven that have been revealed to us.
1. Men and women are no longer designed to be together as complementary, your sole intimate relationship is with God.
2. Eden focuses on a natural Earthly beauty. Heaven focuses on symbols of wealth and authority, those earthly naturally beautiful things like oceans, the night sky, etc, get replaced by describing all the jewels that are set in the walls and city gates and what kind of shiny rocks things are made out of.
3. Eden the purpose was to care for the garden, and have fellowship with God in the cool of the evening. Heaven the purpose seems to be direct worship and praise of God without ceasing. The angels shouting Holy Holy Holy? They were doing that in Isaiah, about 800 years prior to John writing Revelation as well.
800 years of 24/7 repeating the same thing over and over.
it terrifies me to think of being stuck doing something like that.
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The New Heavens and Earth will be superior to the original heavens and earth.
no more sin
no more pain
no more suffering
no more shame
no more guilt
no more disappointments
no more hunger for food/water
no more hurricanes, tsunami's, earthquakes, tornados, famines, draughts etc
no more death
no more satan
no more evil
no more chance of any of the above again it will be in the past and forgotten
I'm so looking forward to spending eternity with my Savior and all the believers in the New Jerusalem that will be the center of the new heavens and new earth where God will dwell with us forever and be its light. There will no longer be night but everlasting light, no more darkness.
Revelation 21
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 22
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
hope this helps !!!
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- Jun 25, 2018
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Maybe you should consider that everything associated with heaven is either pure - Diamonds are a pure element, Gold is a pure element - or the specific compounds they are created from only served to make them stronger and more beautiful.
These things on earth hold value because of their rarity and simple beauty - so maybe God sees heaven in much the same way and wants that communicated to us.
Heaven is precious because of its purity, His people grown more resilient and beautiful through limited exposure to certain impurities, having passed through certain trials to a land that is pure...
Using diamonds, gold and gemstones as descriptors is an easy and understable way to communicate a lot.
Just a thought.
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Most of those things weren't in Eden either, until the fall.
I mean they had hunger and thirst drives but God provided for them so they never lacked.
and I'd prefer to have needs and desires that God fulfilled, than just have needs and desires taken away.
It is so much better to have a desire for something and then get the exact thing that you desired, even if it's something simple like cold water. I'll take having a need for drinking water to be fulfilled, than to just never get thirsty for water again.
in Eden at least, God created things to provide for needs, never just said "stare at me and have no needs for anything else"
also you're talking to a nightowl.
the idea that it's permanently daylight out and I'd never see a night sky again, is kind of depressing for me.
so the no more night stuff.. doesn't encourage me at all. It just strengthens desire for Eden instead.
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If you focus is on heavenly things ( the things above)and not the things of this world your view and feelings might change.
Colossians 3
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ
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3 Resurrections
That's 666 YEARS, folks
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Gotta tell you Jamdoc,
That's some of the most refreshingly honest writing I have read in a while. Thank you for being so openly expressive and giving us a view of what's on your mind.
There is a verse in Isaiah 45:18 that tells me God intends this earth to be our "playground", so to speak, in the eternal state after the final resurrection. It says, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it NOT in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
If God formed this earth with the intent that it be inhabited, and there are other texts that tell us the "EARTH ABIDETH FOREVER", then I believe you can expect a new and even more glorious Eden-like existence for the resurrected saints to exercise dominion over, once human evil is eradicated from the earth completely. I for one, who have never had the opportunity to travel abroad, am going to thoroughly enjoy exploring every nook and cranny of this planet in all its varying shades of beauty and novelty throughout eternity. Don't worry that there will not be nightfall or mornings or oceans. They will still be here.
The New Heavens and the New Earth are NOT the afterlife experience. They are presently in place NOW as a reality that is fulfilled in the NEW COVENANT relationship God has with His people. If you look carefully at Isaiah 65's description of the New Heavens and the New Earth, there is actually death, birth of offspring (which doesn't occur in the eternal state), building houses, planting, harvesting, and eating crops, the presence of sinners, and prayers being made to God (which would not be needed if we were directly in His presence for eternity). These are all modern-day concerns that we participate in today. That "wolf" (unclean animal) and the "lamb" (clean animal) feeding together is representative of God having cleansed the formerly "unclean" animals (the Gentiles) and made them partakers of the New Covenant with the formerly "clean" animals (the Jews) - uniting them into the "One New Man" reality.
Neither is the New Jerusalem coming down from God OUT OF heaven (meaning it is NOT heaven itself) a description of an afterlife existence. We believers are presently living in this spiritual city of the New Jerusalem NOW as a reality that has replaced the Old Jerusalem worship system, erased completely back in AD 70. All those particulars given of New Jerusalem's superlative beauty - these all have a great symbolic significance for the imputed righteousness with which Christ has covered us. God looks at His people covered completely in Christ's righteousness, and considers us beautiful.
For example, take just the square configuration of this spiritual city New Jerusalem. This is reflective of the square configuration of the Holy of Holies back under the Old Covenant tabernacle and Temple. There used to be a rectangular space of separation walling off the people and priests from this Holy of Holies section back then that is not there any more. All of us can now go directly into the Holy of Holies of this New Jerusalem, because our high priest Jesus is seated on the Mercy Seat and His blood sacrifice is sprinkling it, granting us access to this most sacred place of intimate communication with God. Significantly, the square dimensions of the Holy of Holies compartment in Moses's Tabernacle increased in size for Solomon's Holy of Holies, and the New Jerusalem's square size is exponentially larger, showing that there is plenty of room for expansion by evangelism.
Take the streets of gold in the New Jerusalem, for instance. Back in Solomon's days, he made silver in Jerusalem to be as plentiful as the stones of the streets (I Kings 10:27). But the glory of that physical Old Jerusalem temple was nothing compared to the spiritual superiority of the New Jerusalem reality today, and therefore the streets of this spiritual city are said to be made of gold, which is superior to silver.
No need of a "lamp" in the New Jerusalem? That means no need of a Temple menorah anymore, for a Temple that was phased out and burned up in AD 70. Christ is the "light" of this New Jerusalem kingdom of God now - not just limited to a fixed location in Israel as the Temple Menorah was.
"No night" in this New Jerusalem? Back under the Old Jerusalem, nighttime brought about a closing of the gates to shut down commerce, but in the New Jerusalem, the gates of the spiritual city are always open for access to new believers coming to Christ. There is never a time of "night" that shuts down the city's operations.
If you, Jamdoc, are wishing that physical relations between man and woman were somehow still able to be included in the eternal afterlife existence, I think God is perfectly capable of giving us a substitute that will equal or even excel that sensation and intimacy. Yes, indeed, we will still be creatures with physical bodies, but rendered gloriously incorruptible and deathless - capable of many new abilities we currently do not have while in this present life. All the various skills and personalities and giftedness God has displayed in us while in this life will only be enhanced and magnified further in His presence. You will NOT be bored or unhappy. A God who creates and rejoices in infinite variety will manage better than that.
For myself who has always had two uncoordinated left feet, I want to learn to dance with the best of them, even though it might take a couple millennia for me to get there!
That's some of the most refreshingly honest writing I have read in a while. Thank you for being so openly expressive and giving us a view of what's on your mind.
There is a verse in Isaiah 45:18 that tells me God intends this earth to be our "playground", so to speak, in the eternal state after the final resurrection. It says, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it NOT in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
If God formed this earth with the intent that it be inhabited, and there are other texts that tell us the "EARTH ABIDETH FOREVER", then I believe you can expect a new and even more glorious Eden-like existence for the resurrected saints to exercise dominion over, once human evil is eradicated from the earth completely. I for one, who have never had the opportunity to travel abroad, am going to thoroughly enjoy exploring every nook and cranny of this planet in all its varying shades of beauty and novelty throughout eternity. Don't worry that there will not be nightfall or mornings or oceans. They will still be here.
The New Heavens and the New Earth are NOT the afterlife experience. They are presently in place NOW as a reality that is fulfilled in the NEW COVENANT relationship God has with His people. If you look carefully at Isaiah 65's description of the New Heavens and the New Earth, there is actually death, birth of offspring (which doesn't occur in the eternal state), building houses, planting, harvesting, and eating crops, the presence of sinners, and prayers being made to God (which would not be needed if we were directly in His presence for eternity). These are all modern-day concerns that we participate in today. That "wolf" (unclean animal) and the "lamb" (clean animal) feeding together is representative of God having cleansed the formerly "unclean" animals (the Gentiles) and made them partakers of the New Covenant with the formerly "clean" animals (the Jews) - uniting them into the "One New Man" reality.
Neither is the New Jerusalem coming down from God OUT OF heaven (meaning it is NOT heaven itself) a description of an afterlife existence. We believers are presently living in this spiritual city of the New Jerusalem NOW as a reality that has replaced the Old Jerusalem worship system, erased completely back in AD 70. All those particulars given of New Jerusalem's superlative beauty - these all have a great symbolic significance for the imputed righteousness with which Christ has covered us. God looks at His people covered completely in Christ's righteousness, and considers us beautiful.
For example, take just the square configuration of this spiritual city New Jerusalem. This is reflective of the square configuration of the Holy of Holies back under the Old Covenant tabernacle and Temple. There used to be a rectangular space of separation walling off the people and priests from this Holy of Holies section back then that is not there any more. All of us can now go directly into the Holy of Holies of this New Jerusalem, because our high priest Jesus is seated on the Mercy Seat and His blood sacrifice is sprinkling it, granting us access to this most sacred place of intimate communication with God. Significantly, the square dimensions of the Holy of Holies compartment in Moses's Tabernacle increased in size for Solomon's Holy of Holies, and the New Jerusalem's square size is exponentially larger, showing that there is plenty of room for expansion by evangelism.
Take the streets of gold in the New Jerusalem, for instance. Back in Solomon's days, he made silver in Jerusalem to be as plentiful as the stones of the streets (I Kings 10:27). But the glory of that physical Old Jerusalem temple was nothing compared to the spiritual superiority of the New Jerusalem reality today, and therefore the streets of this spiritual city are said to be made of gold, which is superior to silver.
No need of a "lamp" in the New Jerusalem? That means no need of a Temple menorah anymore, for a Temple that was phased out and burned up in AD 70. Christ is the "light" of this New Jerusalem kingdom of God now - not just limited to a fixed location in Israel as the Temple Menorah was.
"No night" in this New Jerusalem? Back under the Old Jerusalem, nighttime brought about a closing of the gates to shut down commerce, but in the New Jerusalem, the gates of the spiritual city are always open for access to new believers coming to Christ. There is never a time of "night" that shuts down the city's operations.
If you, Jamdoc, are wishing that physical relations between man and woman were somehow still able to be included in the eternal afterlife existence, I think God is perfectly capable of giving us a substitute that will equal or even excel that sensation and intimacy. Yes, indeed, we will still be creatures with physical bodies, but rendered gloriously incorruptible and deathless - capable of many new abilities we currently do not have while in this present life. All the various skills and personalities and giftedness God has displayed in us while in this life will only be enhanced and magnified further in His presence. You will NOT be bored or unhappy. A God who creates and rejoices in infinite variety will manage better than that.
For myself who has always had two uncoordinated left feet, I want to learn to dance with the best of them, even though it might take a couple millennia for me to get there!
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Oh boy, my focus can be SINGING
something I absolutely hate doing!
yeah that encourages me.
a choice between doing something I hate forever
or literally being tortured forever.
I don't see how I could possibly not look forward!
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- Oct 22, 2019
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Okay so first, you have spiritualized prophetic scripture to the point of being meaningless, which is something I won't do. Because God has literally fulfilled prophecy in the past.
and I can see pieces moving into place right now to fulfill Ezekiel 38 and 39 literally, Revelation 13 literally, and even Revelation 8 literally, most of which, was never able to be fulfilled in the past.
Preterism doesn't help, neither does amillennialism, to me both of those are willful denial of the reality we're in, where things get worse and worse not better and better.
it also takes the one thing to look forward to, away.
It's not about the sensation, it's about the relationship. There are drugs out there can make it feel like you're experiencing that kind of pleasure for hours at a time.
and you know what? They're empty, vain, and ultimately unsatisfying because it's a drug, it's just in your head, there's no love involved, it's not what God intended. I am not desiring a high.
I'm desiring a life.
John 10:10
I was kind of hoping that meant more than just... longer duration, you know?
Well, I like to dance, I can't do it anymore because I'm crippled.
I suppose I look forward to that.. but.. it does seem like it'll only be solo dances.
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Well I don’t know what to tell you if you don’t want to be with the only one who can save you from your sins. Personally I can’t wait for the afterlife with Him, the sooner the better. Come Lord Jesus, come !
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again you missed a point from the first post.
in both Eden, and in the New Earth, there was felloship with God.
I'm not saying I don't want fellowship with God.
I'm comparing what was had in Eden
to what is promised in the New Jerusalem
and ultimately, Eden sounded better.
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You don’t think God is improving the new heavens and earth ? That our resurrected bodies will be an i improvement over these diseased ones ? You don’t think the tree of life’s fruit will be better than what we gave now? And the water flowing from the river of life in its purest form is not better than all the chemicals in our waters now? And all the other natural disasters we now experience that will never happen again ?
I can go on and on and on with all the things that are better in heaven and earth 2.0.
hope this helps !!!
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