Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
Because I tend to think, based on prophecies in the OT, that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the NHNE.

That's impossible. Even if no death occurred during the thousand years, we know death occurs after that at the end of Satan's little season (Rev 20:9). But, John made it very clear that when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in there will be no more death after that.

For example, some of Zechariah 14. Verse 11 for one.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

How can this possibly not fit the new Jerusalem? What other Jerusalem could there possibly be where there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited? The Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD? The Jerusalem that is once again on the map in our day and time? There will be no more utter destruction involving it, and that this same Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited for ever? Even though verse 11 doesn't mention for ever, how can it not mean for ever, the fact this is going to be the case when the NJ descends from God out of heaven, unless one wants to argue that that won't be the case?

We still have to factor in Zechariah 14:16-19 here, since this would be involving the same time frame verse 11 would be involving. We have 2 choices here, assuming those things are correct. Either it's going to be like that for all eternity, what is recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19. Or something is going to prevent it from involving all of etermity, that for all of eternity one will not be threatened with plagues if they refuse to comply with what has been commanded of them. In my mind, the thousand years solves this problem.

How do you solve the problem of the fact that John said there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in? Your view contradicts that. Why not let the more clear scripture in Revelation 21 dictate your understanding instead of a scripture that, if fulfilled in the future, would suggest that animal sacrifices will be reinstated?

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Timtofly said:
The Second Coming is after the tribulation of the first 4 Seals.

So, you have the second coming occurring after the 4th seal. You just believe so many things that no one else does. It boggles my mind. Do you come up with all of these things yourself?

Here is the order of the questions:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?(1st question) and what shall be the sign of thy coming (2nd question), and of the end of the world?(3rd question)

Jesus did not answer the 1st or 2nd question, but went to the 3rd one.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

None of this has to do with His return nor the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact many things happen before the end, because the end and the answer about the end is not completed until verse 14.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

So Jesus started by giving the answer to the last question. Then we see, Jesus works His way back from the end, to get to the answer of the 2nd question.

Jesus never really gives us the answer to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

He didn't answer that question? Well, that was rude. Why not? I see no reason why He wouldn't have answered that question. I'm sure He did, but feel free to tell me why you think He didn't.

As for Revelation 19, how can you claim Jesus descends to earth, but then reject He stays for the 1000 year reign?

I don't claim that Jesus descends to earth. We will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17).

Where is the verse that claims Jesus ascends back to heaven, and does not remain on the earth?

There is no verse that says He goes to the earth (as we know it) and no verse that says He ascends back to heaven. Instead, scripture indicates that He will burn up the earth when He comes (2 Peter 3:3-13), which will result in the new earth. So, He will come down to the new earth.

I can see one saying He does not descend, but still defeats Satan, the FP, and the beast, but yet you claim a definite return.

What were you trying to say here? It's unintelligible.

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
When I refer to His second coming, I'm talking about whatever happens after He descends from heaven. The series of events after He descends from heaven is that the dead in Christ are resurrected and together with those who are alive and remain are changed (their bodies) and caught up to Him (1 Thess 4:14-17), He then destroys His enemies (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Matt 24:37-39, Rev 14:14-20, Rev 16:16-21, Rev 19:11-21, Rev 20:9) and then the judgment takes place (Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15). If the amount of time that it takes for us to be changed (in the twinkling of an eye) is any indication, then it won't take long for these things to happen (our being caught up and the destruction of His enemies, at least).

Do you believe Jesus will descend from heaven just once in the future? If so, what exactly do you believe happens after He descends from heaven and how long do all the events that you associate with His second coming take? When we meet Him "in the air", what do you think happens right after that?

I don't believe the second coming ever ends, so .. basically eternity.

I believe the second coming starts at the 6th seal, and while I had typically thought that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 had involved riding down from heaven, another poster pointed out that they don't explicitly state that there's a landing involved in Zechariah 14, just that He'll be there.
People like Joel Richardson and Dalton Thomas teach about a second/greater exodus where the remnant of Israel are led back to Jerusalem. Again there's the very interesting passage in Isaiah 63, showing Jesus coming from Edom with His clothes stained in blood, similarly Jesus' raiment is already dipped in blood in Revelation 19 (and yet too many people think that's the first appearance of Jesus in the second coming because they completely miss the earlier ones, if his clothes are already dipped in blood, He's been on earth for awhile), and that is a possibility. That Jesus returns at the 6th seal, and is just active on earth during the wrath of God for however long that takes, and then leads His people from captivity and from Edom back to Jerusalem, and then fights Armageddon.
Dalton Thomas at least, misses the 6th seal coming, and Joel Richardson is very convicted about it, Dalton is a purely post trib person and Joel Richardson wavers between Pre Wrath and Post Trib, partially because he agrees with Pre wrath that the second coming is not a singular event but a complex series of events, and he can't ignore the signs at the 6th seal being very consistent with the second coming motif, but also can't ignore the 7th trumpet, which is when Dalton sees the second coming as starting, both of them are at least partially hung up on "the last trump" not recognizing that the Corinthians did not have the book of Revelation, and would not have it for decades, so Paul was not talking about the 7th trumpet judgement, because that was something the Corinthians didn't know about.

anyway, sure, Jesus could wipe out His enemies in a single second if He wanted to, but scripture teaches of things taking awhile, so, that's the way God chooses to play them out, He chooses to have demons torment people for 5 months in one trumpet judgement, so you kind of have to get over the literal 24 hour day thing that for some reason you're hyperliteral on while not taking any other prophecy literally at all.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I don't believe the second coming ever ends, so .. basically eternity.

I don't even know how to respond to this except to say that I don't know how to respond to this.

I believe the second coming starts at the 6th seal, and while I had typically thought that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 had involved riding down from heaven, another poster pointed out that they don't explicitly state that there's a landing involved in Zechariah 14, just that He'll be there.

Huh? Clearly, Revelation 19 portrays Him as descending from heaven. You are denying this? Or just denying that it has Him going all the way down to earth? If so, I would agree with that. But, I can't figure out for sure what you're trying to say here. I don't agree with the futurist view of Zechariah 14, so I won't say anything else about that.

People like Joel Richardson and Dalton Thomas teach about a second/greater exodus where the remnant of Israel are led back to Jerusalem.

No offense, but I truly couldn't care less what those guys teach. I do care what you think, though, and that's why I'm talking to you. I can't talk to them (I assume they don't post here).

Again there's the very interesting passage in Isaiah 63, showing Jesus coming from Edom with His clothes stained in blood, similarly Jesus' raiment is already dipped in blood in Revelation 19 (and yet too many people think that's the first appearance of Jesus in the second coming because they completely miss the earlier ones, if his clothes are already dipped in blood, He's been on earth for awhile), and that is a possibility.

Why don't you use New Testament scripture to aid your understanding? The New Testament illuminates and explains the Old Testament prophecies for us. Is such a thing as what you're talking about taught anywhere in the New Testament? No. A number of passages teach that Christ will destroy His enemies on the day He returns rather than destroying them on multiple occasions (Matt 24:37-39, 1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

That Jesus returns at the 6th seal, and is just active on earth during the wrath of God for however long that takes, and then leads His people from captivity and from Edom back to Jerusalem, and then fights Armageddon.

Huh? You believe Jesus will be on earth during the wrath of God? That is nonsense.

Dalton Thomas at least, misses the 6th seal coming, and Joel Richardson is very convicted about it, Dalton is a purely post trib person and Joel Richardson wavers between Pre Wrath and Post Trib, partially because he agrees with Pre wrath that the second coming is not a singular event but a complex series of events, and he can't ignore the signs at the 6th seal being very consistent with the second coming motif, but also can't ignore the 7th trumpet, which is when Dalton sees the second coming as starting, both of them are at least partially hung up on "the last trump" not recognizing that the Corinthians did not have the book of Revelation, and would not have it for decades, so Paul was not talking about the 7th trumpet judgement, because that was something the Corinthians didn't know about.

Man, you are all over the place. It's not supposed to be this convoluted. It's called the Book of Revelation, not the Book of Confusion. I would highly suggest not listening to those guys and just ask God for wisdom on this (James 1:5-7). As for your comment on the last trumpet, we've discussed that before, but I couldn't possibly disagree more with you on that. The Holy Spirit is the one with the knowledge of what the last trumpet is. You think the Holy Spirit wouldn't know that the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet when He inspired Paul to write 1 Cor 15:50-54? It doesn't matter what Paul or his readers knew at the time, it matters what the Holy Spirit knew.

anyway, sure, Jesus could wipe out His enemies in a single second if He wanted to, but scripture teaches of things taking awhile, so, that's the way God chooses to play them out, He chooses to have demons torment people for 5 months in one trumpet judgement, so you kind of have to get over the literal 24 hour day thing that for some reason you're hyperliteral on while not taking any other prophecy literally at all.

I don't have to get over anything. People being tormented is not the same thing as Jesus destroying His enemies. I believe He will destroy all of His enemies on the same day because that is what passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that He will do.

keras · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Again there's the very interesting passage in Isaiah 63, showing Jesus coming from Edom with His clothes stained in blood, similarly Jesus' raiment is already dipped in blood in Revelation 19

This proves that the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is BEFORE Jesus Returns.

Isaiah 34:5-8 The Lord has a Day of vengeance, the Redeemer of Zion has a time for retribution. His sword will appear in the sky, see how it descends in judgement onto a people whom the Lord has doomed to destruction. Great will be the slaughter in Edom and He has a sacrifice in Bozrah, His sword of punishment will be sated with blood, the earth will drink deeply of their blood.

Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this, coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments splashed with blood, striding along in His mighty power? It is the Lord, proclaiming victory, He who is strong to save. He treads the winepress of the nations, with no one to help Him. He tramples them in His fury, shatters them in His anger and spills their blood all over the ground. The Lord has resolved on a Day of vengeance, because the year for redeeming His own has come.

Jeremiah 49:12-13 & 22 These are the Words of the Lord: Those who were not doomed to drink the cup of My wrath, must drink it none the less: are you alone to go unpunished? You will not be spared, I will judge you as well. I will swoop down upon Bozrah and on that Day, Edom will lose all their strength. I swear that Bozrah will become desolate, an object of reproach and all her towns will be ruined forever. [Not for all time, see: Ezekiel 36:33-36, Isaiah 61:4]

Amos 1:12 I shall send fire to consume the palaces of Bozrah. Ref: REB, NIV.

Bozrah – Hebrew = a sheepfold, also means: glad tidings. At present Bozrah can be identified as the place where the true descendants of Jacob currently side.
Edom – the descendants of Esau, a metaphor for non-Israelite peoples. Edom may represent every other nationality of the world.

‘The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Cannot the same Day as the Return of Jesus. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev. 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 61:2b, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 30:1-3, Joel 2:11 &31, Micah 5:15, Nahum 1:2-6, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

‘His sword appears in the sky and descends in judgement’, Isaiah 30:25-30, Jeremiah 4:20-28, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 47:6-7, Jeremiah 50:35-38, Ezekiel 21:3-7 & 14-16

‘He treads the winepress of the nations’, Revelation 14:17-20, Jeremiah 9:21-22, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Habakkuk 3:12, Psalms 65:1-3

‘I shall send fire’, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2,5. Obadiah 1:18, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27

‘I will judge you as well’, Ezekiel 23:32-34, Obadiah 1:16, Jeremiah 30:11, Ezekiel 7:1-27, Hosea 4:1-3, Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:12

‘The year for redeeming My own has come’, We are nearing the end of this age, the Lord will take action to correct His creation, as He did so long ago: in the days of Noah. Isaiah 66:15-16, Micah 5:10-15, Habakkuk 3:12, Ezekiel 7:14

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

keras said:
This proves that the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is BEFORE Jesus Returns.

Isaiah 34:5-8 The Lord has a Day of vengeance, the Redeemer of Zion has a time for retribution. His sword will appear in the sky, see how it descends in judgement onto a people whom the Lord has doomed to destruction. Great will be the slaughter in Edom and He has a sacrifice in Bozrah, His sword of punishment will be sated with blood, the earth will drink deeply of their blood.

Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this, coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments splashed with blood, striding along in His mighty power? It is the Lord, proclaiming victory, He who is strong to save. He treads the winepress of the nations, with no one to help Him. He tramples them in His fury, shatters them in His anger and spills their blood all over the ground. The Lord has resolved on a Day of vengeance, because the year for redeeming His own has come.

Jeremiah 49:12-13 & 22 These are the Words of the Lord: Those who were not doomed to drink the cup of My wrath, must drink it none the less: are you alone to go unpunished? You will not be spared, I will judge you as well. I will swoop down upon Bozrah and on that Day, Edom will lose all their strength. I swear that Bozrah will become desolate, an object of reproach and all her towns will be ruined forever. [Not for all time, see: Ezekiel 36:33-36, Isaiah 61:4]

Amos 1:12 I shall send fire to consume the palaces of Bozrah. Ref: REB, NIV.

Bozrah – Hebrew = a sheepfold, also means: glad tidings. At present Bozrah can be identified as the place where the true descendants of Jacob currently side.
Edom – the descendants of Esau, a metaphor for non-Israelite peoples. Edom may represent every other nationality of the world.

‘The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Cannot the same Day as the Return of Jesus. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev. 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 61:2b, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 30:1-3, Joel 2:11 &31, Micah 5:15, Nahum 1:2-6, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

‘His sword appears in the sky and descends in judgement’, Isaiah 30:25-30, Jeremiah 4:20-28, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 47:6-7, Jeremiah 50:35-38, Ezekiel 21:3-7 & 14-16

‘He treads the winepress of the nations’, Revelation 14:17-20, Jeremiah 9:21-22, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Habakkuk 3:12, Psalms 65:1-3

‘I shall send fire’, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14. Amos 2:2,5. Obadiah 1:18, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27

‘I will judge you as well’, Ezekiel 23:32-34, Obadiah 1:16, Jeremiah 30:11, Ezekiel 7:1-27, Hosea 4:1-3, Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:12

‘The year for redeeming My own has come’, We are nearing the end of this age, the Lord will take action to correct His creation, as He did so long ago: in the days of Noah. Isaiah 66:15-16, Micah 5:10-15, Habakkuk 3:12, Ezekiel 7:14

actually the opposite, it proves that Jesus is on the earth during the wrath participating in it.
Revelation 14:14-20. Jesus is in the clouds and the wrath of God begins.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
actually the opposite, it proves that Jesus is on the earth during the wrath participating in it.
Revelation 14:14-20. Jesus is in the clouds and the wrath of God begins.

And how long do you think Jesus hangs out there in the clouds while the wrath of God occurs?

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't even know how to respond to this except to say that I don't know how to respond to this.

Huh? Clearly, Revelation 19 portrays Him as descending from heaven. You are denying this? Or just denying that it has Him going all the way down to earth? If so, I would agree with that. But, I can't figure out for sure what you're trying to say here. I don't agree with the futurist view of Zechariah 14, so I won't say anything else about that.

No offense, but I truly couldn't care less what those guys teach. I do care what you think, though, and that's why I'm talking to you. I can't talk to them (I assume they don't post here).

Why don't you use New Testament scripture to aid your understanding? The New Testament illuminates and explains the Old Testament prophecies for us. Is such a thing as what you're talking about taught anywhere in the New Testament? No. A number of passages teach that Christ will destroy His enemies on the day He returns rather than destroying them on multiple occasions (Matt 24:37-39, 1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

Huh? You believe Jesus will be on earth during the wrath of God? That is nonsense.

Man, you are all over the place. It's not supposed to be this convoluted. It's called the Book of Revelation, not the Book of Confusion. I would highly suggest not listening to those guys and just ask God for wisdom on this (James 1:5-7). As for your comment on the last trumpet, we've discussed that before, but I couldn't possibly disagree more with you on that. The Holy Spirit is the one with the knowledge of what the last trumpet is. You think the Holy Spirit wouldn't know that the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet when He inspired Paul to write 1 Cor 15:50-54? It doesn't matter what Paul or his readers knew at the time, it matters what the Holy Spirit knew.

I don't have to get over anything. People being tormented is not the same thing as Jesus destroying His enemies. I believe He will destroy all of His enemies on the same day because that is what passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that He will do.

Praying for wisdom from above is what led me to Zechariah 14 and what gave me a burden to share it.

as for using old testament? Why not? We still have the old testament for a reason. 2/3 of the bible is Old Testament. New Testament prophecy is contained in the Old Testament as well, and Revelation itself is a clearing house for old testament prophecy. That in fact is a major theme in this thread that Zechariah and Revelation, just like Daniel and Revelation, go hand in hand.

as for the 2 prophecy teachers.. I mention them because they are post trib (though Joel Richardson calls himself pre wrath now but he's still clinging to some post trib beliefs) teachers who I've been watching a bible study series on the book of Revelation that they've been doing recently. Of course I don't agree with them on a lot of things, and I read the book myself as well, and Post trib is MOST in line with what you believe.
I wouldn't even bother with Ammillennial teachers, to them, they can see how Jesus fulfills prophecies quite literally, how the Babylonian captivity and Jewish Diaspora fulfill prophecies quite literally, and yet to an Amillennialist.. God never again fulfills anything literally except in a few of you's cases where you take "Day of the Lord" as 1 24 hour day hyperliterally while making EVERYTHING else a symbol.

There are very few pre wrath communities and teachers out there. Basically.. Rosenthal, Kurshner, and Nelson Walters who I've watched videos from... seems like most are pretribulationalists, and occasionally you get post tribulationalists.

Then the post millennial, preterists, historicists, and ammillennialists that I won't even waste time on.

as for the last trump, it is important that the Corinthians would understand what that meant because the letter was primarily written to communicate with them.

Timtofly · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You have to be kidding me to try to say that the second coming is not depicted in Revelation 19. Yes, it absolutely is! It couldn't be more clear. It depicts Him descending from heaven and then taking vengeance on His enemies. How is that not the second coming?! The same event is depicted from different angles elsewhere in Revelation as well, such as Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:15-21 and Revelation 20:9. It's also safe to assume that the same event is occurring after the opening of seal 7 because the final wrath of the Lamb is said to be about to come down after the opening of seal 6.

You have to be kidding if you also don't accept Revelation 19 is Jesus Christ coming for the 1,000 year reign. You cannot have both.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

Revelation 19 only happens because of the 42 months after the final harvest of the Second Coming is completed. The Second Coming brings Jesus Christ and the angels to gather the final harvest.

Satan gets the gleanings if there's any left, but only for 42 months. Only then is Armageddon the mop up of this 42 months given to Satan.

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
And how long do you think Jesus hangs out there in the clouds while the wrath of God occurs?

that I don't know, because I don't know when the 6th seal occurs. I only know that it occurs sometime during the last 3.5 years, but no man knows the day or hour.
That's one of the reasons why post trib makes absolutely no sense. You can know the day marking the time from the Abomination of Desolation, add 1260 days.. there's your day of the Lord if that's His second coming.
But we don't know the day or hour, we just know, Abomination of Desolation, Great Tribulation... then at some point the sun and moon go dark, day of the Lord.
It's at least 5 months back (for the 5th trumpet) from the end of the 1260 days, basically a 3 year window when it could be.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
that I don't know, because I don't know when the 6th seal occurs. I only know that it occurs sometime during the last 3.5 years, but no man knows the day or hour.
That's one of the reasons why post trib makes absolutely no sense. You can know the day marking the time from the Abomination of Desolation, add 1260 days.. there's your day of the Lord if that's His second coming.

My understanding of the Abomination of Desolation and the 1260 days is different than yours, so I can't really relate to whatever it is you're saying here.

But we don't know the day or hour, we just know, Abomination of Desolation, Great Tribulation... then at some point the sun and moon go dark, day of the Lord.
It's at least 5 months back (for the 5th trumpet) from the end of the 1260 days, basically a 3 year window when it could be.

So, you would see Him as being up in the clouds for several months, at least? I just can't make any sense of what you believe. Oh well.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Timtofly said:
You have to be kidding if you also don't accept Revelation 19 is Jesus Christ coming for the 1,000 year reign. You cannot have both.

No, I'm not kidding about that.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

It portrays Jesus descending from heaven and destroying His enemies but that isn't the second coming? That is ridiculous. So, you see that as a third coming then, even though scripture does not teach a third coming of Christ?

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Praying for wisdom from above is what led me to Zechariah 14 and what gave me a burden to share it.

Hmmm. No comment.

as for using old testament? Why not? We still have the old testament for a reason. 2/3 of the bible is Old Testament. New Testament prophecy is contained in the Old Testament as well, and Revelation itself is a clearing house for old testament prophecy. That in fact is a major theme in this thread that Zechariah and Revelation, just like Daniel and Revelation, go hand in hand.

I'm saying that the New Testament reveals what the Old Testament prophecies mean. I don't know why you can't understand that concept.

as for the 2 prophecy teachers.. I mention them because they are post trib (though Joel Richardson calls himself pre wrath now but he's still clinging to some post trib beliefs) teachers who I've been watching a bible study series on the book of Revelation that they've been doing recently. Of course I don't agree with them on a lot of things, and I read the book myself as well, and Post trib is MOST in line with what you believe.
I wouldn't even bother with Ammillennial teachers, to them, they can see how Jesus fulfills prophecies quite literally, how the Babylonian captivity and Jewish Diaspora fulfill prophecies quite literally, and yet to an Amillennialist.. God never again fulfills anything literally except in a few of you's cases where you take "Day of the Lord" as 1 24 hour day hyperliterally while making EVERYTHING else a symbol.

Nonsense. I don't make EVERYTHING else a symbol. Do you always exaggerate like this? I take Matthew 24:37-39 literally when Jesus compares His coming to Noah's day when the flood destroyed all unbelievers and He said it will be the same when He comes, which means He will destroy all unbelievers when He comes. Do you take that literally?

I take it literally when Revelation 19:18 indicates that Jesus will destroy all people on the earth at that time (so all unbelievers since believers will have already been caught up to Him). Do you take that literally?

I take 2 Peter 3 to literally be saying that the entire heavens and earth will be burned up at the second coming of Christ. Do you take that literally?

I take Jesus literally in John 5:28-29 when He said a time is coming when all of the dead will be raised, including the saved and the lost. Do you take that passage literally?

as for the last trump, it is important that the Corinthians would understand what that meant because the letter was primarily written to communicate with them.

They didn't need to understand that it was the seventh trumpet in order to understand that it was the LAST trumpet. In what sense is it the LAST trumpet in your view? How do you think the Corinthians would have understand the reference to the last trumpet?

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
My understanding of the Abomination of Desolation and the 1260 days is different than yours, so I can't really relate to whatever it is you're saying here.

the 1260 days is in Revelation, and it is also given as time, times, and half a time in Daniel.
somehow you don't connect the two.

So, you would see Him as being up in the clouds for several months, at least? I just can't make any sense of what you believe. Oh well.

That part I'm not sure on, He does come to the ground at some point for sure, Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are clear on that but He appears in the clouds first.
That is also part of why I give pause and consider Isaiah 63 and the proponents of a second/greater exodus position. That Jesus comes down and leads Israel from captivity to Jerusalem during the wrath of God is their idea, and Revelation 19 is the culmination of that journey.

Revelation 19 doesn't describe Jesus riding down from heaven, it just says heaven was opened and John beheld Him on a white horse, just as Zechariah 14 doesn't say that God descends from heaven onto the mount of olives, just that He stands on it.
It's the armies of heaven that come down from heaven to follow Jesus.

I am considering the possibility that Jesus has been leading a second exodus, but for Armageddon heaven is opened up and the raptured saints come down from heaven to follow Him at Armageddon.
In this sequence. Jesus does only come down once, it's just much earlier than Revelation 19. It's not multiple comings, but one coming at the 6th seal, followed by Jesus continually doing things on earth until the final battle at the end.

I had always assumed that Jesus raptures the saints to heaven and comes back with us because of the statement that we'd be forever with Him.
and I still wrestle with that.
But one thing I do not wrestle with at all
is the idea that Jesus only comes back in Revelation 19.
I can't blind myself and ignore the other, earlier appearances of Christ within the narrative.
I can't do the "oh it's describing the same event every time" option either because the appearances are characteristically different, showing 2 characteristically different events.
and I can't for several reasons

#1 Revelation 6 and 14 are too clear to me
#2 You'd be able to set your calendar for Revelation 19, Satan certainly does, he has an army amassed right where prophecy says Jesus will fight the last battle and Satan can count days and read the bible, and Jesus says no man or angel knows the day or hour.
#3 Isaiah 26:19-21
#4 1 Thessalonians 5:9, to believe Christians will be on the earth during the wrath of God, God would have to make Christians unable to die from thirst or heat stroke, much less the other global effects like asteroid impacts, and all the grass being burned... WHILE they cannot buy or sell
#5 Matthew 24:29 indicates that the end of the great tribulation is at the 6th seal, but a lot more events happen after it, which means it's not great tribulation but something else
#6 The pictures of Lot and Noah being pulled out of danger just before the wrath of God

Spiritual Jew · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
the 1260 days is in Revelation, and it is also given as time, times, and half a time in Daniel.
somehow you don't connect the two.

When did I say that? I didn't. I don't believe it's referring to a literal 1,260 days. As I've told you before, I believe Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and Revelation 12 indicates that the 1,260 days or time, times and half a time began back then already when Satan was cast out of heaven.

That part I'm not sure on, He does come to the ground at some point for sure, Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 are clear on that but He appears in the clouds first.

Where does Revelation 19 say anything about Him coming to the ground? How long do you think He will be walking around on earth before God's wrath is over with? It's amazing to me that you think He would be on the earth while God's wrath is coming down. I find that to be absurd.

That is also part of why I give pause and consider Isaiah 63 and the proponents of a second/greater exodus position. That Jesus comes down and leads Israel from captivity to Jerusalem during the wrath of God is their idea, and Revelation 19 is the culmination of that journey.

I find that to be utter nonsense. There is no indication of such a thing whatsoever in any of the New Testament prophecies regarding His second coming.

Revelation 19 doesn't describe Jesus riding down from heaven, it just says heaven was opened and John beheld Him on a white horse

Come on. Why is heaven opened if He is not descending from there? I can't take this seriously.

I am considering the possibility that Jesus has been leading a second exodus, but for Armageddon heaven is opened up and the raptured saints come down from heaven to follow Him at Armageddon.
In this sequence. Jesus does only come down once, it's just much earlier than Revelation 19. It's not multiple comings, but one coming at the 6th seal, followed by Jesus continually doing things on earth until the final battle at the end.

Why would we not see any indication of any of this anywhere else in scripture that speaks of the second coming of Christ? Sorry, but I can't take any of this seriously.

I had always assumed that Jesus raptures the saints to heaven and comes back with us because of the statement that we'd be forever with Him.
and I still wrestle with that.
But one thing I do not wrestle with at all
is the idea that Jesus only comes back in Revelation 19.
I can't blind myself and ignore the other, earlier appearances of Christ within the narrative.

There is no earlier appearances of Christ in the narrative. You're missing that there are parallel accounts of the same event.

I can't do the "oh it's describing the same event every time" option either because the appearances are characteristically different, showing 2 characteristically different events.

I completely disagree.

and I can't for several reasons

#1 Revelation 6 and 14 are too clear to me

What does that mean?

#2 You'd be able to set your calendar for Revelation 19, Satan certainly does, he has an army amassed right where prophecy says Jesus will fight the last battle and Satan can count days and read the bible, and Jesus says no man or angel knows the day or hour.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

#3 Isaiah 26:19-21

What are you intending to say by referencing this passage?

#4 1 Thessalonians 5:9, to believe Christians will be on the earth during the wrath of God, God would have to make Christians unable to die from thirst or heat stroke, much less the other global effects like asteroid impacts, and all the grass being burned... WHILE they cannot buy or sell
#5 Matthew 24:29 indicates that the end of the great tribulation is at the 6th seal, but a lot more events happen after it, which means it's not great tribulation but something else
#6 The pictures of Lot and Noah being pulled out of danger just before the wrath of God

I don't know what you're talking about. Our views are just so different that I can't make sense of even half of what you're saying. It makes me exhausted trying to follow what you're saying. Let's just agree to disagree at this point.

Jamdoc · Aug 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
When did I say that? I didn't. I don't believe it's referring to a literal 1,260 days. As I've told you before, I believe Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and Revelation 12 indicates that the 1,260 days or time, times and half a time began back then already when Satan was cast out of heaven.

Where does Revelation 19 say anything about Him coming to the ground? How long do you think He will be walking around on earth before God's wrath is over with? It's amazing to me that you think He would be on the earth while God's wrath is coming down. I find that to be absurd.

Why wouldn't He be? in Revelation 19 His clothes are already dipped in blood. In Isaiah 63, He's on the ground and His clothes are also dipped in blood. It's the wrath of God, why wouldn't He be an active participant in it?

I find that to be utter nonsense. There is no indication of such a thing whatsoever in any of the New Testament prophecies regarding His second coming.

Come on. Why is heaven opened if He is not descending from there? I can't take this seriously.

For the saints to join Him.

Why would we not see any indication of any of this anywhere else in scripture that speaks of the second coming of Christ? Sorry, but I can't take any of this seriously.

There's certainly no indication that Revelation 19 is the first appearance of Jesus in the final days, because His clothes are already dipped in blood. If He's just been in heaven this whole time while angels did all the wrath? Why are His clothes bloody?
Why does Isaiah 63 describe Jesus Himself treading the winepress of His wrath on the earth?

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

and this would actually be your new testament explanation.
Jesus is in the clouds, harvests a first harvest that is not put through the wrath of God, then an angel harvests the second harvest, of earth dwellers, and puts them through the wrath of God, and Jesus treads the winepress of God's wrath. Yes it's a picture in this case, and I believe it's referring to Isaiah 63.

There is no earlier appearances of Christ in the narrative. You're missing that there are parallel accounts of the same event.

Timing doesn't match. Jesus gave no signs similar to the trumpets or bowls in Matthew 24.
it also makes the 7th seal be a nothingburger.

I completely disagree.
What does that mean?

It's less in connection to you and more in connection to other posters that ONLY see Jesus coming back in Revelation 19. They miss Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Revelation 11, Revelation 16.
To your credit you recognize Jesus in those passages where other people miss Him completely.
But you see them all as the same event when it describes different timings. 1 at the beginning of the day of the Lord and another at the end, with months in between. 6th seal leads to 7th seal which leads to trumpets, 5th trumpet is 5 months long. at the 7th trumpet, there's a second event where Jesus claims the kingdom.
1 event (the second coming) begins the day of the Lord. The 7th seal gives the 7 trumpets, the 7th trumpet.. announces that Jesus is claiming the Kingdom.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

If Jesus only returns at the end of the wrath of God, at the end of the 3.5 years, then the day the Abomination of Desolation happens, you can mark off 1260 days and know the exact day that Jesus returns.
is that consistent with what the bible teaches?
are we just going to lose the ability to count? Satan apparently doesn't.
How do you mass up an army and be prepared for battle at Armageddon if you don't know what day He comes back?

What are you intending to say by referencing this passage?

Really?

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

It points out that the resurrection happens before the indignation.
The indignation starts at Revelation 6:17, it is the trumpets and bowls.

I don't know what you're talking about. Our views are just so different that I can't make sense of even half of what you're saying. It makes me exhausted trying to follow what you're saying. Let's just agree to disagree at this point.

Possibly, but you did come into this thread hopefully knowing that the views were irreconcilably different.

it's why I don't bother with postmillennial preterist or amillennial threads.

keras · Aug 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
actually the opposite, it proves that Jesus is on the earth during the wrath participating in it.
Revelation 14:14-20. Jesus is in the clouds and the wrath of God begins.

The prophesies that describe the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, say He is not seen on the Day He sends His wrath. Amos 1, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11, and Psalms 11:4 clearly states; the Lord is in His holy Temple....raining fire upon the wicked.

Timtofly · Aug 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

I take it that you are referring to this? If yes, when comparing some of Revelation 7 with some of the following, this indicates that the time meant is during the NHNE.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

As to Revelation 15, these are meaning the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 which did not worship the beast. It is then natural that they would already be in heaven, unless soul sleep is an option. None of those would be meaning anyone raptured.

As to the marriage supper of the Lamb, that has to be connected with the following, thus these events are involving the same timeframe.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Doesn't Revelation 19:7 make it clear that the wife has made herself ready? Shouldn't that mean the timeframe involving Revelation 19:7 is the same timeframe involving the above in Revelation 21? In a real world wedding, when is a wife typically adorned for her husband? When she makes herself ready, or years after she makes herself ready?

Which seems more reasonable?

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready---prepared as a bride adorned for her husband----thus no gaps.

Or

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready---insert a gap of a thousand years and a little season here----prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

You are totally skipping over the 1000 year reign on earth between Armageddon and the NHNE. There is literally no NHNE verse in Scripture prior to Revelation 21. No OT prophet saw the NHNE. Only John witnessed it after Armageddon, or more precisely after the 7th Trumpet stopped sounding. And then only after the Day of the Lord, the Millennial reign with Christ.

Timtofly · Aug 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
Desolate Earth during the Millennium

Many Bible speak of the Earth desolate - bodies cover the Earth, no stars, hills move to and fro, cities of earth all destroyed "I looked and there was no man" Jer 4. (non-SDAs have no point in time where Earth can be desolate like that)

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
=======================

Rev 19 says all the armies in rebellion against Christ are slain and "the REST" were killed by the sword that comes from His mouth (his Word puts them to death).

That is the second coming / Rapture event and leaves no wicked alive at all.

Rev 19:
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

========

And other texts tell us that all the saints raptured as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18

The 42 months given to Satan as Steward is this time of desolation.

Timtofly · Aug 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
Because I tend to think, based on prophecies in the OT, that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the NHNE. For example, some of Zechariah 14. Verse 11 for one.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

How can this possibly not fit the new Jerusalem? What other Jerusalem could there possibly be where there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited? The Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD? The Jerusalem that is once again on the map in our day and time? There will be no more utter destruction involving it, and that this same Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited for ever? Even though verse 11 doesn't mention for ever, how can it not mean for ever, the fact this is going to be the case when the NJ descends from God out of heaven, unless one wants to argue that that won't be the case?

We still have to factor in Zechariah 14:16-19 here, since this would be involving the same time frame verse 11 would be involving. We have 2 choices here, assuming those things are correct. Either it's going to be like that for all eternity, what is recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19. Or something is going to prevent it from involving all of etermity, that for all of eternity one will not be threatened with plagues if they refuse to comply with what has been commanded of them. In my mind, the thousand years solves this problem.

Why would it have destruction during the 1000 year reign? It never states Jerusalem is destroyed, not even when fire consumes the rebellious. It will dissolve away and only the GWT will remain. Then the New Jerusalem comes down.

Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

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