Non-Christian reading the bible for the 1st time and have a question about Genesis

chevyontheriver said:

You are reading Genesis like a Fundamentalist. Sorry, it's true though. It's intended to be understood much differently than that.

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Jeremias 38:34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

I currently lack enough knowledge to understand the fall of Angels

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Did they step out of line and create this everything is food for something else world (as compared to the 'Garden'). What was it man in the Garden did that made them more compatible to this gain at the expense of others world they were cast out into? Two sets of Gods, two worlds, two ways of life. Which will reign supreme in the end? The self serving ones or those made to serve another? It is hard for those of this world to see it from an outside perspective even with the guidance of it's outside Saviour. Hence any interpretation will be tainted with the perspective of this world.

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Again, I am ignorant of about 99% of the Bible so I can not answer that question in any intelligent manner at the moment.

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Ok, but in your wisdom of seeing two different forces at play, remember that the character of the world seeks to control and define scripture and also Christianity to be seen through the eyes of the character of the world alone; rather than thorough the character of the opposing Kingdom, Done lest the earth weary who tire of the ways of man and the ways of this world seek to change what is and prompt a change back to the Garden, denying one set of Gods (and creation) for the other.

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Unfortunately not. as the question itself is too complex to reduce to a single question.
My apologies if this is a wall of text.

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how about one question from out of it ...

Could be this.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Or it could be this....
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Not sure why its written Spirit of God, and not God. Perhaps it has something to do with the concept of the trinity.

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Listen Honey Badger,
You've spent 2 days not reading a bit of text.
You've spent 2 days asking me to reduce the wall of text for your convenience.

I am not begging You to participate, nor does it bother me if you don't. But No, I refuse to do the leg work for you and furthermore I'm not even interested in your input at this point. You're being lazy off of a little bit of text, lol. Have a good day. but don't worry about it Brother.

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my keyboard is broken so typing on screen using my mouse, one click at a time .... i was only asking for you to narrow down your post into an actual definitive question for your benefit not mine ...

here is the answer to what you want to know ...

Cain and Abel are the two sons\perceptions of Adam\man ..... the two are pictured throughout the book starting in the very first verse of Genesis ....

my eyes are hurting now so sorry if this appears lacking, but when one sees the patterns one sees them in everything ...

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Disclaimer: Although I claim no one particular religious affiliation at the moment I do hold the belief that there is a Supreme Being/Entity which is the source of everything. I'm currently on a quest to understand this Being as much as humanly possible and thus I'm here at a Christian forum. I will try to word my questions and responses carefully as I am not trying to debate rather Christianity is accurate or false, I'm seeking information.

my following question relates to Genesis and covers the following things;

• 2 Creator Beings
• 2 Creations
• 2 types of Man being created

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
​

Clearly in the above 2 passages it's explicit to me what was executed;

• God - talking to others like him or of his caliber gives the command or instructions of creation Man in their likeness and image.
• God - (not the others who he was speaking with) created Man
• God - gave man dominion over Fish of the sea, Fowl of the air, Cattle, the Earth and everything that creeps upon the Earth
• God - created this man in his own image.
• God - created both Male and Female

Now, where I begin to lack understanding is after Genesis 2:3 when God blesses the seventh day and sanctifies it as in the very next passage of 2:4 a new being is introduce without 'proper introduction' named 'LORD God'.

Genesis 2:3

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​

Genesis 2:4

These are the generations of the heavens and the of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.​

Now the reason why I take it that the being 'God' and the being 'LORD God' are different is for the following reasons;

1. The word in the KJV "LORD" is capitalized and precedes the previous title of "God" (written in non-capitalized letters except the first).
2. When 'LORD God' comes into the bible, Man and animals and plants have not been created (although they were created in Genesis 1 under the being "God")

Genesis 2:5

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.​

With Genesis 2:5 compared to Genesis 1:26-1:27 it says to me the the following;

• LORD God comes into the creation story after God
• LORD God and God are two different beings with two different scopes of power (will expand upon this further down)
• LORD God and God are creating in two different realms of existence

I also seem to pick up that Man was fashioned in 2 different manners being the two beings;

God in Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the seas, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

God in Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

God in Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

LORD God in Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

LORD God in Genesis 2:8

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
​

The 5 above passages says to me that there are 2 types of Man;
One created in the image of God by God and One formed (without any indication as to which image it has taken) by LORD God.

Also the Man created by God in Genesis 1 seems to be already alive/living after the very act of creation and if I'm reading the insinuation correction this form of man (created by God) was created in the same material as God. While man created by LORD God is not said to be made in the image of LORD God and further more is created from;

• Dust of the ground
• Having the Breath of Life breathed into it's nostrils to become a 'living soul'

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As a non-Christian I am not able to post this in the other sub-forums (and I understand and respect that decision) so I'm asking here for some clarity and understanding of the seemingly 2 different entities and their methods of creation. Again, I am not looking to prove or disprove Christianity - for all intends and purposes I believe all religions hold truth and I'm just attempting to understand the truth of the Bible currently so my questions above may seem skeptical but they are more inquisitive than anything.

Thanks for reading, hopefully my questions makes sense.

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The Book of Genesis contains two creation stories. The first creation story is contained between Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:3, Genesis 2:4 begins the second creation story.

According to the Documentary Hypothesis the first creation story belongs to the Elohist author, while the second creation story belongs to the Jahwist author.

According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Pentateuch (the Five Books), or Torah, was written by four authors: the Elohist, the Jahwist, the Priestly, and the Deuteronomist. These four traditions were redacted and edited into a single document sometime after the Jewish return from the Babylonian Exile.

As such one is going to find a few cases of doubling, and in the case of Genesis' creation narrative, those who produced the present Genesis text chose not one, but two creation stories.

The presence of the two creation stories is problematic for some who hold to particular opinions about Genesis, and thus there are various attempts to harmonize the stories. I don't think it's possible to do that without causing injury to the text.

Rather I think the two stories stand on their own, each providing its own perspectives and making its major points.

However, and I should probably have prefaced my post with this, I am not a Genesis literalist; I don't believe the creation stories in Genesis are intended to be taken literally. For example I subscribe to the Framework Hypothesis of reading the Genesis 1 creation story.

-CryptoLutheran

As far as the "we" of Genesis 1 goes, there's not universally agreed upon answer.

The traditional answer is that this is a "royal we", something called the "plural of majesty". I am not knowledgeable enough as to whether this is something we find in Hebrew idiom, but it is a position that has been taken by both Jewish and Christian scholars and exegetes over the centuries.

Some Christians maintain that the "we" here is an early clue to the doctrine of the Trinity, and thus here the Three Divine Persons speak in unison as a "we".

Others suggest perhaps God was speaking to the angelic host, still others speculate that this is a vestige from a time when hard monotheism wasn't yet fully entrenched in Israelite thought.

I don't have a particular position on the subject, as I think it remains open to debate without very clear answers.

-CryptoLutheran

This is a world built upon opposites including good and evil where everything is food for something else, and we are no different than others as predators. When we were not self aware, we did God's bidding. Now we who became outcasts from the Garden, will once again put His bidding before our own will. However that cannot be in the world which we were cast into, this one where we were a better fit once we had fallen.

But regardless, in this world it is impossible to actually overcome sin. Our animal self serving instincts are too strong being made for this world. Some of us were not made for this world but rather for the garden universe. Two creations became one. Now one of those two will be no more.

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Can you explain what it is you're relating to my OP and the post I'm currently quoting of yours?
I'm not seeing the correlation between my OP and your above quote.

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Two different creations that came together and eventually will part, with one of the two being no more.

To understand the beginning one needs to understand the end and vice versa. The book is a living entity.

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

MUCH MUCH MUCH appreciation!
Questions,

• Where can I find the original writings of the 4 authors? (I know the question is probably pointless due to the time and what not but figured it's worth asking.)
• Any idea or writings explaining the decision process in including 2 creation stories within Genesis?

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The Documentary Hypothesis is, I mean, just that, a hypothesis. It's been (one of?) the dominant hypothesis of the authorship of the Pentateuch for over the last century.

The oldest physical copies from the Pentateuch are not nearly old enough. The Dead Sea Scrolls is about as old as I'm aware, with the exception of an engraved piece of metal that contains a portion of the book of Numbers (I'm operating off of memory here) which may date a century or two earlier.

There isn't much material evidence for dating the Pentateuch, though many scholars are fairly confident that Deuteronomy dates roughly to the time of Ezra (with some speculating that Ezra may have been its author) in the 5th century BC.

I consider the presence of both creation stories to be evidence that whoever was redacting/editing the source material together did so on purpose--we could only hazard a guess as to why. Though as someone of faith who believes Scripture is sacred and inspired, I see the presence of the two creation stories as important to the overall biblical drama leading as it does to Christ.

• (sincere inquiry) When you say that you believe each story stands on it's own and provides its own perspectives, would you feel comfortable explain further what you mean? as I'm interested to hear your perspective.

Thank you for the reply! and especially for the links and additional information.

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Sure, the days of creation show up throughout the Bible, if nothing else in the form of the Sabbath. The New Testament links God's saving work in Christ to the restfulness prefigured by the Sabbath, and uses the language of the creation in ways to speak about the new creation. The renewal of creation that is inaugurated by Jesus' death and resurrection, working its way in the lives of individual humans as forgiveness of sins, redemption, and grace through faith and ultimately in the apokatastasis, the renewing and healing of all creation; a world broken now put back together and healed under God's love and compassion.

The second creation narrative also shows up throughout the biblical drama. St. Paul calls Jesus the "Second Adam", as Christ becomes the "new man" who fixes and heals the wounds caused by Adam as described in the Garden narrative of Genesis chapter 3, that narrative begins in the second creation story. The present fallen reality associated with Adam the "man from dust" held in contrast to the future renewed creation brought by the second Adam the "man from heaven".

I would suspect that in some ways this gets into a far larger topic (or many topics really) that involves a lot of intersection of theological ideas and biblical texts, themes, etc. The short answer is that the saving work of God for the world in Jesus is about God's faithfulness to creation as the good Creator God putting the wrongs to rights.

-CryptoLutheran

Johnathan_D_Hill said:

Disclaimer: Although I claim no one particular religious affiliation at the moment I do hold the belief that there is a Supreme Being/Entity which is the source of everything. I'm currently on a quest to understand this Being as much as humanly possible and thus I'm here at a Christian forum. I will try to word my questions and responses carefully as I am not trying to debate rather Christianity is accurate or false, I'm seeking information.

my following question relates to Genesis and covers the following things;

• 2 Creator Beings
• 2 Creations
• 2 types of Man being created

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
​

Clearly in the above 2 passages it's explicit to me what was executed;

• God - talking to others like him or of his caliber gives the command or instructions of creation Man in their likeness and image.
• God - (not the others who he was speaking with) created Man
• God - gave man dominion over Fish of the sea, Fowl of the air, Cattle, the Earth and everything that creeps upon the Earth
• God - created this man in his own image.
• God - created both Male and Female

Now, where I begin to lack understanding is after Genesis 2:3 when God blesses the seventh day and sanctifies it as in the very next passage of 2:4 a new being is introduce without 'proper introduction' named 'LORD God'.

Genesis 2:3

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​

Genesis 2:4

These are the generations of the heavens and the of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.​

Now the reason why I take it that the being 'God' and the being 'LORD God' are different is for the following reasons;

1. The word in the KJV "LORD" is capitalized and precedes the previous title of "God" (written in non-capitalized letters except the first).
2. When 'LORD God' comes into the bible, Man and animals and plants have not been created (although they were created in Genesis 1 under the being "God")

Genesis 2:5

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.​

With Genesis 2:5 compared to Genesis 1:26-1:27 it says to me the the following;

• LORD God comes into the creation story after God
• LORD God and God are two different beings with two different scopes of power (will expand upon this further down)
• LORD God and God are creating in two different realms of existence

I also seem to pick up that Man was fashioned in 2 different manners being the two beings;

God in Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the seas, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

God in Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

God in Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

LORD God in Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

LORD God in Genesis 2:8

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
​

The 5 above passages says to me that there are 2 types of Man;
One created in the image of God by God and One formed (without any indication as to which image it has taken) by LORD God.

Also the Man created by God in Genesis 1 seems to be already alive/living after the very act of creation and if I'm reading the insinuation correction this form of man (created by God) was created in the same material as God. While man created by LORD God is not said to be made in the image of LORD God and further more is created from;

• Dust of the ground
• Having the Breath of Life breathed into it's nostrils to become a 'living soul'

====
As a non-Christian I am not able to post this in the other sub-forums (and I understand and respect that decision) so I'm asking here for some clarity and understanding of the seemingly 2 different entities and their methods of creation. Again, I am not looking to prove or disprove Christianity - for all intends and purposes I believe all religions hold truth and I'm just attempting to understand the truth of the Bible currently so my questions above may seem skeptical but they are more inquisitive than anything.

Thanks for reading, hopefully my questions makes sense.

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i made a video on this..

it literally answers everything you ask here and ties in a much larger picture.