Where do you stand on the efficacy of Christ's atonement?

John Mullally said:

The video in the opening post is about 10 years old. In a recent post (Oct 2020) MacArthur now argues that God wants everyone saved - although not strongly enough to "decree" it.
If God Desires All Men to Be Saved, Why Aren't They?

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Like he "wanted" Pharoah to obey his command to him? (Exodus 4:21-23)

bling said:

Christ could use any words He wanted to in His parables but always used the very best word, so in the Parable of the prodigal son Christ twice discribes the son why in the foriegn land as being "dead", but that son was still physically and mentally alive and doing stuff, including coming to his senses and turning to his father.

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He was dead to his father, as our spirits are dead to God until we are born again and made alive in him.

Clare73 said:

He was dead to his father, as our spirits are dead to God until we are born again and made alive in him.

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I fully agree with you on this. By the father's definition of "dead", which is also Jesus' defintion the son was dead, yet the son did stuff, like comng to his senses and turning to the father.

Clare73 said:

He was dead to his father, as our spirits are dead to God until we are born again and made alive in him.

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Good Day, Clare

Just to add " the dead" to is is used even today in Jewish society not to be taken literally, but to show the heights of disappointment.

In Him,


Bill

John Mullally said:

Jesus shows us Gods heart for the lost when He wept over Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

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Good Day, John

The correct understanding of what is being taught by this verse by what it says depends on who/what you think Jerusalem is, who/what her children are... and who is not willing?

As far as this being connected with the "lostness" of anybody that at least from this verse is a argument made for silence.

So can you tell me the who/what's of this verse in you view?

In Him,

Bill

John Mullally said:

The gathering "as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings" represents establishing right relationship with Christ - especially among children. Jerusalem's religious leadership (descendants of those who killed the prophets) rejection of Christ tragically blocks Christ's effort to do that.

From a wider view, man's loss of right relationship with Him, grieves Jesus.

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Good Day, John

I am not looking to steal this thread on this verse... But

You seem to infer that this has something to do with Children (especially). But the text has a possessive pronoun (your) Children.

How often I wanted to gather your children together

So can we agree that he is talking about the children of Jerusalem specifically?

Did "her" children have free-will?

Could Jesus have tried harder, or was he doomed to failure and learned that along the way?

I really invite you to ask about these verses in "ask A Calvinist" where you can ask all the questions you want about certain texts and we can dig into the written word and what it says by how it is written.

IN Him,

Bill

John Mullally said:

To start off with I believe that God desires all men to be saved men per 1 Timothy 2:4 & 1 Peter 3:9 - I believe in free will & receiving by faith and repentance per Acts 2:38. But of course there is disagreement in the Christian community. Here John MacArthur dismisses arguments that God wants all to be saved with "God's will is always done" at 35:40 - that implies a lottery type pre-determined damnation for many as it is totally up to God - like a puppet on a string. Where do you stand?

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If we believe God wants to save all, but saves some, we may question His power to get His will done.

If we believe God doesn't want to save all, we may question His love for the human race.

I hold to God wants to save all.

John Mullally said:

Good points. I believe those two scriptures I referred to in my opening posts declare that God desires for all men to be saved. So I don't believe there is a lack of love.

As to God's potency, have you ever thought that maybe God leaves some things up to man. After all, God gave dominion of the earth to Adam. I believe that man's continued rebellion has led to a situation where even Jesus and Paul term Satan "the god of this world" and that we are now in a spiritual battle.

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​

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By "the latter" I meant that if God doesn't want to save all, I would question His love for man. I will by no means do that, so I believe God wants every person in this world saved.

zoidar said:

By "the latter" I meant that if God doesn't want to save all, I would question His love for man. I will by no means do that, so I believe God wants every person in this world saved.

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If you interpret this decision to mean all WILL be saved then Christ was just babbling about the unforgivable?

TedT said:

If you interpret this decision to mean all WILL be saved then Christ was just babbling about the unforgivable?

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Of course, all won't be saved.