How to understand : "Under Grace"

eleos1954

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That is the Law of Righteousness that is established by God's blood, and new birth, as a believer being "made righteous". (born again).
This has nothing to do with trying to go back under the old covenant law to try to save yourself by commandment keeping.

There is nothing wrong with the law.

DEATH is the curse .... NOT .... the law.

It is the work of Jesus in the believer (not our works) helping us to NOT sin (transgression of the Law).

True ... we can not save ourselves ..... that is the work of Jesus in the believer .... to Him be all the glory for the work HE does.

Be thankful of the work He does in you.

Are you overcoming any of your sin? If so, how so?
 
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pescador

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"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith." Galatians 3:10-11
 
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fhansen

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"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith." Galatians 3:10-11
And living by faith means to now live with God, rather than apart from Him, living by the Spirit, living under grace. And living the life of grace means, not freedom from the obligation to be righteous, as if, for one, we should sin more so more grace might abound more, but it means to be overcoming sin, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, doing good, being holy, apart from and without regard to the law.
 
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fhansen

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I think we can reduce much of this discussion down to one question. If we’re no longer under the law, but now under grace, living by the Spirit, are we still obligated to be personally righteous?

Are we obligated to be righteous in thought, word, and deed- at least to some level in this life deemed sufficient by God? And I think even reading Paul's letters alone tell us that yes, we are. We are not justified by the law; we're justified-made righteous- by God, and then enjoined to remain in that righteousness, in Him, and to live accordingly. The will of man is involved, however small the role it may play, precisely and only because God absolutely wants it involved. We can say "no"-anytime. And this involvement is the reason why it's all taken so long, the reason why God didn't just stock heaven with the elect and hell with the rest in the beginning.

To be justified by the law means self-justification: self-righteousness. To be justified by faith means God-justification: God righteousness, the real thing. The first is based on pride, while still apart from or in rebellion against God, while the second is based on union with Him, as we turn to Him in faith instead of reliance on ourselves.

The second brings man full circle, from disobedience and separation from God in Eden, through the Mosaic covenant which tested man's ability to be righteous on his own, as Adam thought he was, to the recognition of our need for God, Himself, and the means to finally achieve the communion with Him that we were meant for.

We could say that it's to eat of the right tree now, the Tree of Life made available again as man finally becomes jaded of the fruit of the other Tree. As he's developed a hunger and thirst for the truth and righteousness and love that are so lacking in the world of human beings, left on their own. As he's ready to embrace the light when it shines forth on him.
 
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Sidon

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There is nothing wrong with the law.

DEATH is the curse .... NOT .... the law.
?

Try to see this..

1.) "Christ came to redeem us from the Curse of THE Law". That is John 3:16

2.) "The power of SIN is the Law". this is "sinning and confessing", and being a "sinner".

The reason that God replaced the LAW with GRACE...>"you are not under the law, but under GRACE"....... if you are born again......is 1, 2 and this next one.

3.) God found fault with the law , commandments , which is the old covenant, because none of this can give you righteousness, or make you righteous.
And without righteousness, you are this...... John 3:36


So, God manifested a NEW Testament and the New Covenant that is not about law or commandments, but is totally based on The Blood of Jesus and FAITH. And this new covenant, gives you the "gift of Righteousness".

See, the blood of GOD deals with ALL SIN. And the law, and the commandments, didnt deal with it at all, and can't, they can only expose it and you as a SINNER.
 
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Bro.T

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As soon as you can, try to believe that you are saved not by enduring, but by God dying as Christ on the Cross, for your sin.
That is not your "enduring".
That is God providing Salvation, as "the gift of Salvation".
You dont "endure" for that.....You receive this GIFT = by faith.

I get what you saying, but grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12)

But to maintain your grace we must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Thats the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments).
 
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pescador

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I get what you saying, but grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12)

But to maintain your grace we must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Thats the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments).

1 John 3:4-9, "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God."

We most definitely do not need to keep the law; that is a denial of Christ. Those of us who are born-again Christians are in Christ and therefore are no longer under the law, since He has fulfilled all the law's requirements.
 
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Fervent

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One thing I always think of when the question of what it means to live under grace is Luke 6:3 and the example of David. The Bible tells us that David kept the whole law except in two instances, the taking of the census and the incident with Bathsheba. Yet Jesus highlights a story of a clear violation of what is written in David's taking of the bread of the presentation as an answer to Pharisaical challenges to His own actions. The law was never meant to be taken as an absolute, literal thing to be enforced but was given as a guide for how Israel was to live righteously in the land and do right by the people, something it failed to do as the prophets continually remind us. Meticulously keeping a cerimonious set of rules to be "holy" is not the path to righteousness, but God is a God of order and grace is not an escape from the true Law.
 
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pescador

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I get what you saying, but grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12)

But to maintain your grace we must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Thats the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments).

I am forever grateful that I am no longer under sin and no longer under the OT law. I am dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 1 John 3:4-5, " Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin." So, if you are in Christ, then you are, by definition, sinless.

Keeping the OT law is a denial of Christ. Verse 4 is a definition of sin (only).
 
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Fervent

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I get what you saying, but grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12)

But to maintain your grace we must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Thats the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments).
Are you saying that Christ's death was insufficient? That our salvation is incomplete, and must be supplemented by our law-keeping?
 
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fhansen

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Its called "God's Grace" because its God providing it, not you.

Your love isn't God's Grace.
God's Grace is Jesus , the Son of God, dying for you, because of God's love.
We love because He loves. Our love is indeed God's grace-that's the only place it comes from. Like faith and hope, as with wisdom, these are virtues that humans can possess by the grace of God, by His provision.
 
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fhansen

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We most definitely do not need to keep the law; that is a denial of Christ.
Keeping the OT law is a denial of Christ.
I'm sure you don't mean to say that not breaking the commandments is a denial of Christ. Or that breaking the commandments is ok.
 
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Sidon

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But to maintain your grace we must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Thats the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments).

Grace is God on the Cross.
You can't maintain that.
But you can have faith in it,........ and if you do, God will give you the new birth.
 
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Sidon

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We love because He loves. Our love is indeed God's grace-that's the only place it comes from. Like faith and hope, as with wisdom, these are virtues that humans can possess by the grace of God, by His provision.

There is human love, and then there is God's love.
God's love is agape, and human love is soul realm.

Christianity is designed for a sinner to become the righteousness of God, "In Christ" = God's Spirit joined to the spirit of the saved person.
"one with GOD, In Christ".

Discipleship, is the born again person becoming less and God becoming more, in them.

Paul teaches this as..>it is not i who lives but Christ who lives in me..
 
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fhansen

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There is human love, and then there is God's love.
God's love is agape, and human love is soul realm.

Paul teaches this as..>it is not i who lives but Christ who lives in me..
And we can know that we're in Christ to the extent that we love. Love is the true measuring stick of our nearness to God and of our justice/righteousness.
 
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eleos1954

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Try to see this..

1.) "Christ came to redeem us from the Curse of THE Law". That is John 3:16

2.) "The power of SIN is the Law". this is "sinning and confessing", and being a "sinner".

The reason that God replaced the LAW with GRACE...>"you are not under the law, but under GRACE"....... if you are born again......is 1, 2 and this next one.

3.) God found fault with the law , commandments , which is the old covenant, because none of this can give you righteousness, or make you righteous.
And without righteousness, you are this...... John 3:36


So, God manifested a NEW Testament and the New Covenant that is not about law or commandments, but is totally based on The Blood of Jesus and FAITH. And this new covenant, gives you the "gift of Righteousness".

See, the blood of GOD deals with ALL SIN. And the law, and the commandments, didnt deal with it at all, and can't, they can only expose it and you as a SINNER.

Do you sin (transgression of the law). Have you overcome any of your sin(s)? If so, how so?

I am not saying the law saves anyone, only Jesus does, but that does not mean the law is obsolete .... when one is saved .... THEN .... the Holy Spirit works in the believer to help them (give them power) to overcome their sin.

God does not make mistakes .... nor does He change is mind.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

Overcomes what? ...... SIN (transgression of the law)

The grace of God is nothing "new" .... God has been showing His grace (favor) towards mankind since the beginning.

The grace of God is when one receives Him and then He sends the Holy Spirit to help them overcome their sin (transgression of the Law).

If one is not overcoming their sin (through the power of Christ - Holy Spirit) they are not walking in the Spirit.

Again .... the Law leads us to Christ .... then after one is saved .... Christ leads them back to the law and gives them the power of the Holy Spirit to help them overcome it.

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law

John 14:21
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

Walking in the Spirit

If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God’s law. For the commandments say, “You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet.” These—and other such commandments—are summed up in this one commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law. Romans 13:8
 
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Sidon

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And we can know that we're in Christ to the extent that we love.

Paul said that "Christ loved me and Gave Himself for me".
Paul was not "loving" when he was helping to gather Christians and have them murdered.

WE are not saved because we loved God. But rather because God loved us and came here and saved us.

So, all the "Love" that we become and perform, is based on God loving us first, while we were "dead in trespasses and sin", "alienated from the Love of God that is found in Christ".
 
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Sidon

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I am not saying the law saves anyone, only Jesus does, but that does not mean the law is obsolete ....


The born again are "not under the law, but under Grace".

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

"The Law is the power of sin", and that is the CURSE.

So, to live the holy life, as God requires...>"be holy as I am Holy". Is to have the Holiness of God become who we are, in Christ, as "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
This is the born again Spirit that is a New Creation.

All the born again, are "made righteous", because of the blood of Jesus and "the gift of Righteousness".
 
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BobRyan

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There are 2 dominions, .........found in the Spiritual Realm

1. Law
2. Grace.

WE are under one or the other.

When we are under the law, the law has dominion and it judges us.
Its the law that judges and defines us as "SINNER".
Its GRACE that defines us as "Saint".

When we are born again, we are "no longer under the law, but we are under GRACE".

See that spiritual dominion change?
Its real.

So, now, the law, can't title us, it can't define us, so......it has no right to judge us anymore as : "sinner".
It has no dominion over us. "Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law".
"you are not under the Law, you are under GRACE".

UNDER= Dominion.

The born again now exist "Under Grace" and it is our dominion.
Why?
Because our sin is gone and Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law.
AND, the born again exist in the Kingdom of God, and there is no LAW there....so, there is no dominion of the Law.
The only dominion that exists in the KOG< is GRACE.
The only LAW that is the dominion of Grace is GOD.
Hes the dominion, and the Born again are "ONE with GOD, In Christ".
So, its GOD who defines us according to us being born again, as a "new Creation" "in Christ"... So that means, there is no law found in His Dominion, that can define you in this Eternal Spiritual Reality.
God, on the Cross, has resolved the Law, that was against you, by redeeming you from it, and then putting you into HIS Dominion.
"Translated FROM........Darkness.....TO Light."
This is why the Born again are only defined by "Grace" as that is God's DOMINION regarding the born again.... which is to be "the righteousness of God" "made Righteous"... in Christ".
---------------------------------------

You have read the NT and you read that ..>"we are translated from Darkness....>TO LIGHT".

See that?
That Light is God's Kingdom, and there is no Moses Law there.
God does not need law and commandments in His Eternal Kingdom...He's God. He's Holiness itself.
God's NAME is "HOLY".

This Law and Commandment stuff was made for humans on Earth, and given to us by MOSES, because we are sinners by fallen nature and had to be shown what we are BY the law and commandments that show us what we are,...... that then leads us to the Cross to get this resolved by becoming "the righteousness of GOD.....in CHRIST".
The law and commandments are a holy mirror that reflect us as compared to God's holiness, and we see we are lost, sinners, needing to be RESCUED.
This is The Cross.
Jesus's blood and death is our eternal rescue.., proven by Christ being resurrected.

The law is only for the unrighteous, who are down here on earth in this position... John 3:36
We the born again, are up there, we are "ONE WITH GOD">..and there is no Moses Law in this situation, that can define the born again.
We are "Under Grace", not under the law, once we are Born again Into God's Holy Spirit, by God's holy Spirit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The confusion for most Christian, is that they are trying to stay MENTALLY DEFINED (wrong mind, broken faith) by what isn't able to define you any more.
They are trying to keep defining themselves as a "sinner" when in fact they now spiritually exist in GOD, and there is no Moses Law found there.
There is only Grace., and Grace only defines you as "made righteous".
So, if you are having FAITH issues reflected as you can lose your salvation as your BELIEF..... you have to change the way you think, regarding understanding who you are become, as a Born Again, "made righteous", "Son of God".

You have to renew your mind from the old way of thinking of yourself as a "sinner", (carnal mind)..... or as a "saved sinner" and instead only see yourself as God has recreated you to EXIST, for ETERNITY< as "the righteousness of God, in Christ"...."made Righteous"....possessing "eternal LIFE.

And then when you read Romans 4:8 that says that God does not charge your sin to you, and then when you read 1 John 3:9 that says the born again can't sin..... it'll make sense when it says you "cannot sin" ......perfect sense.
And when you begin to now see yourself as....>"As Christ is, so are the born again in this world"....it will make perfect sense, because that is the TRUTH.

------------------------------------------------

1.) Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

So, when We are born again, we are no longer under the law, we are "under Grace".
GRACE is the spiritual law that runs, that operates, that controls , the Kingdom of God.
All the born again..are in the Kingdom of God, and that is why we are SPIRITUALLY "seated in Heavenly places, in Christ'.
This is why all the born again are "One with God".... and ...."as Jesus IS so are the Born again in this world"

See all that?
That is the real you, the born again you, the you that is 1 John 3:9, that cannot sin.

This is the REAL You, that is "in Christ" and God only sees this "new Creation" as YOU.
He does not see your mind or your body as the real you.
God only sees you as His SON, born again, Spiritually.

So, when you instead see yourself as that person who just had that bad thought, you are seeing yourself as the old man, the sinful nature, and God does not.

This is why you think about SIN, vs seeing yourself as Made righteous and cannon sin.

Reader what about that stuff you confess..
Well, God does not evaluate it, you do.
God sees you only as born again, (if you are, and not just water baptized).
----------------------------------------------------

I always talk about the renewed mind and being made righteous.
That is because when you see yourself like that, as that TRUTH.......then you finally see yourself as God sees you, and then these issue with how your natural mind tries to define you as..>"well, i just did that again, so that's what i am and who i am"....stop being falsely relevant.

All that is relevant is this TRUTH......which is that God has remade you as His very Righteousness, and that does not ever change because of your behavior.
Listen....
Your behavior is your state, but your eternal status, is "God's Son", "made righteous". "having Eternal Life"...."born again"
Your emotional state changes from day to day......you are sometimes a better person, sometimes not so good, sometimes happy, sometimes not.... and this has no effect on your Born again Spiritual STATUS, that is always...>"One with God, In Christ"
Being Born Again is not impacted by how you think, its only created by God's Holy Spirit.

2.) Paul redefined the title of our carnal behavior as "works of the Flesh".

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,

He did this because ....

The born again are not under the law, we are under Grace.
Grace is now our new dominion.,and we are under it.
Graces has dominion over us, and in this, there is no law or commandment keeping, that can define you.
The born again, as under Grace, are defined as "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
That is who you are, when born again.
The "New Creation" "in Christ" is the REAL YOU, that is the Son of God.

Your natural mind that is prone to lust and self righteousness and unbelief, and then worries, and confesses, is the mind of the DEAD YOU< that was "crucified with Christ".
Paul tells you to "reckon the old man dead", because in fact, He is....and you are now the born again New Creation in Christ, that God recognizes as the real you, because He has given you the "new birth", as PROOF.

So......When you do something that is a carnal deed.......
That is what Paul defines as "sin consciousness" and a "work of the flesh".
This is all related to the "soul realm" and not your born again Spirit that can't sin, and is made righteous.

The "soul realm" is your natural (carnal) mind, and this is always in opposition to the Mind of God, the Mind of Christ, and it wants to direct how you see yourself as a Christian.
It will tell you.....>"well, see what you did, that is who you are", "you're a sinner".
But that is not the right mind,..... that is the mind of the FLESH trying to run your FAITH.
We are told to "renew" our minds into perfect alignment with How God only and always sees us, as "made righteous". A "new Creation" "in Christ" as that is the part of you that is going to heaven. Not your body and not your carnal mind.
Paul said....>"as many as BE Perfect".....and that is all who have a renewed MIND that is controlled by REAL FAITH.

For now, until you are Raptured, you are stuck with this situation. You have to learn how to think correctly as REAL FAITH regarding who you are become , by new birth, as "the new creation" as who you really are, even tho, your natural mind informs you differently.
That " carnal mind" is not the right one and you are to "reckon it dead", and renew it, so that you discipline your mind and the way you think AS how you see yourself. You are only and always to see yourself as God sees you, which is..."made righteous".. "In Christ", "New Creation". "born again".
That is the "renewed" mind.
That is "walking in the Spirit"

Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! 16 Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

And of course 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
 
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BobRyan

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But as for the saved --
Rom 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Having "the Law of God written on heart and mind" Heb 8:6-12 under the "New Covenant"

The born again are "not under the law, but under Grace".

True - not under the curse of the Law as lost sinners - but under grace.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

"The Law is the power of sin", and that is the CURSE.

That is true in the case of the lost.

But as for the saved --
Rom 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Having "the Law of God written on heart and mind" Heb 8:6-12 under the "New Covenant"
 
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