The Danger of Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine

Humble_Disciple said:

In Matthew 24:13, when speaking of the time of great tribulation, Jesus says "He who endures to the end will be saved." How does this square with the pre-trib rapture teaching that we don't need to endure to the end, but instead will be rescued before anything bad happens?

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The time of “the End” (End of the World) is a period of time known as the “Day of the Lord” or the “Day of Wrath.” (Which is 3 and 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1,290 days). It's like when a guy is on a sinking ship in icy waters who says to the other people on the boat, “This is the end.” It's like in a Western movie, when you see the heroes riding off into the sunset on horseback while the credits say, “The End.” In other words, things can still happen while it is called, “The End.” We are to endure to the End before the “Day of the Lord” happens. The Day of the Lord is the End.


Here we see in Scripture according to Amos 5:18 that the day of the Lord is called, an “end” and that is a time of darkness and not light. In fact, the verse gives us a “woe” to desire the day of the Lord. Yet, I have heard some Post Tribbers boast like we must go through the great tribulation like it is some kind of great honor.

In other words, the Day of the Lord (the last 3 and a half years of the Tribulation) is a time of darkness whereby the world will be judged for their rejecting Jesus Christ. Only the two witnesses and the 144,000 (Messianic Jews) will live during this time as a witness to the remaining lost.

The whole point of 2 Thessalonians 2 is that Paul is trying to reassure the Thessalonian believers that they are not in the time known as the “Day of the Lord” (Which is a time period of God's Wrath being poured out upon the world beginning with the trumpet judgments, i.e. the really bad judgments). Paul is saying in 2 Thessalonians 2 that before the “Day of the Lord” (a.k.a. Day of Christ - KJB - 2 Thessalonians 2:2) will not happen until there is a great falling away (i.e. believers in Christ will no longer follow sound doctrine), and the man of sin shows himself in the temple (the Jewish temple) that he is God.

The first half of Paul's prophecy has already happened in that believers of today have fallen away from sound doctrine in the area of proper Soteriology. We are living in the last days described in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 whereby men are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God. They have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. For many believers today justify that you can commit serious sin (on some level), and still be saved while doing such sins. The part that still needs to be fulfilled is the man of sin (the Antichrist) showing himself that he is God in the Jewish temple. So we need to have a Jewish temple first before this prophecy can be fulfilled (i.e. the coming of the Day of the Lord).

21 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:21-22).

The great tribulation would include the man of sin (the Antichrist) killing 1/4th of the population of the world by the enforcement of the mark (4th seal). The rest of the great tribulation would then follow with the Day of the Lord” (6th seal) which is a reply to God's people crying out for justice just being martyred by the Antichrist (5th seal). So the great tribulation will be shortened for the Elect's sake in that they will be taken up to meet Christ in the Middle of the Tribulation by angels. This is the second “Taking up” event.

But in the Post-Trib viewpoint: How can the great tribulation be shortened for the Elect?
It cannot be shortened in a Post-Trib viewpoint.
Thus, the Post-Trib viewpoint is not true.

“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (Matthew 24:44). This means Christ’s coming (for His faithful ones) is going to be unexpected. The Son of Man is not going to just come to destroy this world, but He is first going to come to take His true followers. By believing the plain meaning of what Matthew 24:44 says, it cannot be the Post Trib view because it sounds like His coming is totally unexpected in that the Son of Man will come in time that we think not. This means that He will come unexpectedly. He will catch us off guard in His coming for His remaining disciples. Again, this is not the Second Coming, but the coming for His NT people. For surely a person can see all the signs of Revelation happening around them to predict the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ. So obviously Matthew 24:44 cannot be in reference to the 2nd coming but it is in reference to the coming of His servants (Which is before).

For one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Also, this part of the passage in Matthew 24 cannot be true if the Post Trib viewpoint is true, as well.

“But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:48-51).

How can a person say that the Lord will delay His coming beyond Revelation 19?
Such a thing would not make any sense. I believe this passage is actually warning us against the Post Trib viewpoint in that the Lord will delay His coming for His bride at the End of the Tribulation with His 2nd Coming to destroy the Earth. For I have seen this happen. I have seen some who hold to Post Trib beat their fellow servants (metaphorically speaking of course with their words). For if the Lord comes in a time you think He says, then up until that time, you can live it up in this life, or do your own thing.
But Matthew 24 says He comes in a time that ye think not.

The danger of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

The only danger for the pretrib doctrine is what happened in the 70s. Everyone prophesied that Jesus was coming on such and such a day and many people quit jobs and ECT thinking God was coming and because of that many of those people went bankrupt or lost their homes and ECT.

The bible teaches to be ready for Jesus every second of the day. So I do not believe the doctrine is wrong but the way people go about it is wrong. If you just follow the Word of God then there will be no worries.

Btw I am not going to debate rapture in this thread. If you have questions about my statement great lets discuss it but if not this thread stops here for me.

God bless

Godwilling said:

The danger of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

The only danger for the pretrib doctrine is what happened in the 70s. Everyone prophesied that Jesus was coming on such and such a day and many people quit jobs and ECT thinking God was coming and because of that many of those people went bankrupt or lost their homes and ECT.

The bible teaches to be ready for Jesus every second of the day. So I do not believe the doctrine is wrong but the way people go about it is wrong. If you just follow the Word of God then there will be no worries.

Btw I am not going to debate rapture in this thread. If you have questions about my statement great lets discuss it but if not this thread stops here for me.

God bless

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The problem is that is not the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is not about date setting. The Pre-Trib Rapture is about the Lord being able to come at any moment or in a time we think not. But the loss of a job, and or home is not the end of the world. One can get another job, and or another home. But life does not consist in the abundance of things. For our Lord says:

Jesus tells us our basic needs (i.e. like food, shelter, clothing, etc.) will be met if we seek first the kingdom of God.

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Matthew 6:33).

A false believer would leave the faith if there is no rapture it is good to be informed if there is a rapture because if there is an escape then people should know to help prepare themselves to be serving Christ to escape tribulation but one should not expect that he will not have to go through tribulation and I think if there is a rapture it could only be for the persecuted church who suffer for their faith in countries where they are troubled who never deny their faith as revelations says because you have kept my command to persevere I will keep you from the hour of trial which will come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth I do not believe those who are not raptured can not be saved but people have to suffer for their faith

Humble_Disciple said:

The danger of pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is that believers will not be prepared for the time of great tribulation, expecting that God will just rescue them before anything really bad happens.

The early church fathers and the early Protestant Reformers taught that the rapture will occur after the great tribulation. It wasn't until the modern doctrine of Dispensationalism that belief in a pre-trib rapture became popular, and there are serious biblical problems with Dispensationalism, from a traditional Reformed perspective.

The popular acceptance of pre-trib teaching today seems to be an outgrowth of modern materialism and consumerism, that we shouldn't have to suffer for the Gospel. Just look at how much money has been made by the Left Behind franchise.

Are there any Biblical passages which prove, definitely, a pre-tribulation rapture?

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I agree 100%

AdamjEdgar said:

- the Islamic faith does not believe jesus is the Messiah.

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I will have to correct you on this. You can verify this for yourself, but it is clear in the Quran, verse 3:45, that one can see the reference to the Messiah Jesus.

Humble_Disciple said:

How is a pre-tribulation rapture compatible with Matthew 24:13, that he who endures to the end will be saved? This seems to suggest a post-tribulation rapture. Before the rise of dispensationalism, did anyone historically teach a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Yes, it was brought to light in circa 1800 AD when Church Truth was recovered in Ireland after the falsehoods of the RC rule with force of law to 1500 AD; and also the various denominated sects that formed after much of what they learned under the RC and still practice today. One might read the history on that period from 1827 AD with an honest inquiry.

When one takes a verse out of context, as was done over Matthew 24:13 by a few readers here, and builds a doctrine, they are missing "all the counsel of God" and not "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God tells us. All noted Bible scholars show the word: "saved" as in Matthew 24 refers to 'preserved' --not salvation of the soul. Look it up by reliable Bible scholars and not some preacher who has his own ideas. Well, I do suppose some herein will ignore this and go on with their ideas. Before concluding truth about our Holy Bible, one needs to know the full picture as in "all the counsel of God'. I seek to do that in all my studies of God's Word over 60 years, though I cannot claim perfection. I seek to not let one verse tell me the whole story ---though John 3 and John 14 surely gives us a good start. Keep looking up, for "our redemption draweth nigh"! --speaking of the 'home call' of faithful saints.

Christ's witness is true. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed the Sign of His coming and gathering of His Church is AFTER... the "great tribulation".

In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul was actually pulling from what Lord Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse (i.e., those Scripture reference I gave above).


Paul 1 Thess.4 covers two groups that Lord Jesus gathers on the day of His return:
1. the resurrected 'asleep' saints He brings with Him from Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).
2. those of His faithful Church still alive on earth on the day of His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17).


In Christ's Olivet discourse, it's the same idea:
1. the Matthew 24:29-31 example is Jesus gathering the 'asleep' saints from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


2. in the Mark 13:24-27 example, Jesus gathers His saints still alive on earth, from end of the earth to the utter most heaven.

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV


Yet those men behind the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory tell their followers that Christ's Olivet discourse Scriptures do not apply to the Church! If one has the common sense to open up God's Word and study for theirself, like we are supposed to, then telling us those Olivet discourse Scriptures don't apply to the Church, but only to the Jews, that ought... to bring up an immediate red flag!

The above Scripture comparison proves that what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 is the same thing Lord Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse.

There is no pretribulation Rapture. Rapture and 2nd Coming are same event

alertandawake said:

I will have to correct you on this. You can verify this for yourself, but it is clear in the Quran, verse 3:45, that one can see the reference to the Messiah Jesus.

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sorry my mistake...yes you are absolutely correct. I inadvertently used a Christian statement inclusive of Jesus Divinity instead of ensuring the difference here. Muslims do not believe Jesus is God.

Bible Highlighter said:

To understand End Times prophecy, you need to understand Daniel's 70 weeks correctly.

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could i critique this diagram...i see a huge fundamental flaw in this theory and perhaps you could explain my misunderstanding...

Note the last "1 week of years" where "A covenant between Israel and the One who is to come (Daniel 9:26&27)

If one is to take your view literally, then if we then go back to Daniel 2,7 and 8...there is a massive problem.

I can prove that Daniel 7&8 and Revelation 13 are directly linked...ie that they are speaking of the exact same historical kingdoms and period in time. The little horn in both means the exact same thing. "How is this possible, in daniel 7 the little horn comes out of Rome and Daniel 8 it comes out of Greece?" i hear you ask...well that is simple, are you aware of the following:

• • Adrian Goldsworthy, Cezar: Życie giganta

  • Aleksander Krawczuk, Cesarz August

  • Polybius, The Histories

  • Oswald Sobrino, An Affable Bust of Pompey the Great: Insight into a Major Roman Figure and his Times

So the link between Daniel 7&8 is proven, thus the 2300 years prophecy is directly linked to the coming earthly kingdoms immediately after Daniels received his visions. You are essentially claiming that Jesus will return 2300 years after 457 B.C! (1844)! Obviously that did not happen so it must have been a pretrtib secrete rapture!

Now i personally do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, however, I feel that the error in your diagram ultimately defeats your pre-tribulation rapture. This means that your diagram is wrong. Have you thought that perhaps the last week of Daniel's propehcy actually refers to Jesus ministry on earth starting in A.D. 27-29? If you were to read to text more closely, does it not make sense that "in the middle of the week, he shall be cut off" is referring to Jesus ministry lasting 3.5 years (he died in A.D 31-33) and, the second part of the prophecy is fulfilled at the stoning of Stephen 3.5 years later in A.D 34-36. (generally there is a 2 year disagreement on dates used but it doesn't change the time periods between)

From Jesus baptism to stoning of Stephen was 7 years! (you can research this for yourself on google its pretty obvious.)

If you use my dating, then you dont self defeat your doctrine about the tribulation and second coming!

Humble_Disciple said:

Can anyone please point me to any passages of scripture which prove a pretribulation rapture? How can we be prepared for the coming Antichrist if we just expect that God will make us disappear before he arrives?

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Who has the answer?
It is an interesting topic.

Those who have followed Christ faithfully always keeping themselves like the wise virgins may be raptured but that refers to second coming for when He will return but if they were especially ready before as Jesus said pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man.

If that is not a rapture yet there will be protection for those who are ready but perhaps some stand before Son of Man through the escape they stand early and it seems there could be a rapture as it says two will be in one bed one will be taken and the other left. Also it says people will be working and not everyone can work in tribulation.

That does seem to describe a rapture if the eagles are the believers to go to join wherever the rest of believers are joined truly to Christ though Christ is alive now His body and blood is poured in this world and eternally to eat and drink it which people do be allowed to do so if they obey His words to have relationship with Him to be able to unite fully now in ordinance or later if they prepare as Jesus said He will give some of hidden manna to those who overcome but they do so because the body and blood is still given to eat and drink His body and blood His body is as a carcass because it is not anymore physically alive that body was slain yet He remains alive not dead it now can be consumed as it fully died and gives life as it is resurrected but if eagles refers to birds that will eat flesh near end then it could refer to end when people who followed antichrist will be eaten by birds but those never tested still on earth will remain on earth when Christ comes.

But it does not seems to refer to end as it seems there are those left behind who still have chance to be saved as it even says after tribulation satan will be bound but at end it is not the case so it seems there could be rapture as the bible says dead in Christ will rise first why would they rise first on earth if we are at end that would seem not seem to be because the whole world will end then but it could be the case the world will just end revealing the saved by catching up and then everyone on earth will die by destruction of flesh eating birds and sword.

Revelations 19:21 says this sword will proceed from the mouth of Christ to slay unbelievers and unfaithful and then the world will be destroyed by fire but it could be a rapture because it says after people are destroyed by sword and antichrist is destroyed there is still people on earth who survive who maybe were lukewarm Christians for it says they will remain and the devil will be bound which allows them to have chance to repent to be saved but then devil will be released to be able to deceive those who didn’t use opportunity or allow themselves to be deceived.

But the bible says those who are faithful God will keep them from hour of trial so could it be a rapture or could it be as it says in revelations those who are faithful who kept the word of God God prepared a place in wilderness for them to be protected from attack of Satan and maybe to be protected from trial from the antichrist or it could be both the faithful church is raptured and those left behind who never had chance before to know of God who accept Him then those who are faithful will have protection during that time from antichrist in wilderness yet will need to stay faithful and others will be persecuted who keep commandments from then on they have to overcome

Red Gold said:

Who has the answer?
It is an interesting topic.

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There is not one verse in all of Scripture that specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.

A pretribulation rapture was never even heard of in the church until about 200 years ago.

Authoritative NT teaching locates

the rapture with the resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

with his trumpet call; i.e., summons to Judgment (Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52;
1 Thessalonians 4:16),

in the last day (John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24), which is the Final Judgment, the day of the Lord
(1 Thessalonians 5:2-6; Luke 21:34-36; Matthew 24:42-44),

at the end of time.

Resurrection --> Rapture --> Second Coming --> Final Judgment --> End of Time.

Anything not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching is contra-Biblical.

Humble_Disciple said:

The danger of pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is that believers will not be prepared for the time of great tribulation, expecting that God will just rescue them before anything really bad happens.

The early church fathers and the early Protestant Reformers taught that the rapture will occur after the great tribulation. It wasn't until the modern doctrine of Dispensationalism that belief in a pre-trib rapture became popular, and there are serious biblical problems with Dispensationalism, from a traditional Reformed perspective.

The popular acceptance of pre-trib teaching today seems to be an outgrowth of modern materialism and consumerism, that we shouldn't have to suffer for the Gospel. Just look at how much money has been made by the Left Behind franchise.

Are there any Biblical passages which prove, definitely, a pre-tribulation rapture?

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No, there are none. The scriptures they use does not imply that any will be taken away from here pre-tribulation. These teachings started in the 18 hundreds from one's (mis)interpretation of Margaret McDonald's dream - along with John Darby.

First, I believe that this prophecy is a type / antitype in that it has two applications...the coming desctruction of Jerusalem which we know occured first in A.D 70 (type), and also for the end of time just prior to the second coming (anti-type)


I do not think there is anything in this verse in Matthew 24 (which specifically uses the word "tribulation") that could be interpreted as a pretrib-rapture. It actually finishes up at the end of vs 22 by stating that "for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short".


that quite clearly tells us, that all will experience this tribulation and that we must flee to the mountains to escape the impending destruction. It specifically has the inclusion of the "elect" here in vs 22.

The elect are those who are waiting and longing for the second coming of Christ...very clearly they are most definitely still on earth during the tribulation prophecy given by Jesus in Matthew 24.

I have no thoughts on how we are to interpret "flee to the mountains", however, i think a general thought has been to take this literally.

I dont think there can be any doubt about when the tribulation is...the words of Jesus are pretty self-explanatory. Jesus is our first authority on this doctrine in Matthew 24, all other writings should be considered from this over-riding theme when interpreted.