I cannot fathom being apathetic to history

Andy Pierce · Jun 14, 2021

HTacianas said:
I've never heard of him before. Steven Anderson is his name. But I know a lot about what he preaches. I used to believe everything he's saying. There's an idea among some protestants that go variously by Baptists, Independent Baptist, Non-denominational, Bible Baptist, and several other names. Just so everyone knows, they follow a type of Alexander Hislop/James Milton Carroll version of Christian history that has it that some loose group of people throughout history have held to the teachings of the apostles since the foundation of Christianity, but have remained outside of the Church. I could go on and on about their beliefs.

What brought me to my senses was hitting the stone wall of simple arithmetic. If you follow their logic to its natural conclusion, that being "everybody else is wrong and I'm right", it leads eventually to the idea that you yourself are the only one going to heaven. And yes, I'm serious. The one question they cannot answer is "if this group has existed throughout history, how did you meet them"? There is no answer to that question because they never met that group of people because that group of people does not exist.

Anderson says that we believe in working our way to Heaven as if we believe in earning ourselves a ticket into Heaven.
Doesn't our church believe God can let anyone into Heaven, and that nothing we do in our lives guarantees we will go to Heaven?

HTacianas · Jun 14, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
Anderson says that we believe in working our way to Heaven as if we believe in earning ourselves a ticket into Heaven.
Doesn't our church believe God can let anyone into Heaven, and that nothing we do in our lives guarantees we will go to Heaven?

Those statements are both generally true. We do "work our way into heaven" but "nothing we do in our lives guarantees we will go to Heaven". Who goes to heaven and who doesn't is entirely up to God. But this Anderson guy seems to think that "accepting Jesus as your savior" guarantees you a ticket to heaven. But Orthodox Christians accept Jesus as their savior, so according to his own beliefs we are already saved and have nothing to worry about. He can't have it both ways.

Rather than Mr. Anderson's partial acceptance of the bible, I prefer to accept the bible in its entirety. And rather than Mr. Anderson's acceptance of his own traditions I prefer the Traditions of the Orthodox Church. The Traditions of Orthodoxy are long standing and have existed for two thousand years. Mr. Anderson's traditions are only recent and he places himself as chief arbiter of who is right and who is wrong. That is not a thing I would take upon myself.

ArmyMatt · Jun 14, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
He also says homeless people deserve to starve to death.

yeesh

Andy Pierce · Jun 14, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
yeesh

I am impressed by his energy. Hating requires a lot of energy. I wonder what Anderson's childhood was like. Probably not pleasant or normal.
I saw one video where Anderson held up a Bible and said "Behold your God!" as if he was literally calling the Bible God. He's on the same level as Heaven's Gate cultists.

Andy Pierce · Jun 14, 2021

HTacianas said:
Those statements are both generally true. We do "work our way into heaven" but "nothing we do in our lives guarantees we will go to Heaven". Who goes to heaven and who doesn't is entirely up to God. But this Anderson guy seems to think that "accepting Jesus as your savior" guarantees you a ticket to heaven. But Orthodox Christians accept Jesus as their savior, so according to his own beliefs we are already saved and have nothing to worry about. He can't have it both ways.

Rather than Mr. Anderson's partial acceptance of the bible, I prefer to accept the bible in its entirety. And rather than Mr. Anderson's acceptance of his own traditions I prefer the Traditions of the Orthodox Church. The Traditions of Orthodoxy are long standing and have existed for two thousand years. Mr. Anderson's traditions are only recent and he places himself as chief arbiter of who is right and who is wrong. That is not a thing I would take upon myself.

He believes we're going to Hell because we believe in working in order to better our chances of going to Heaven.

HTacianas · Jun 14, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
He believes we're going to Hell because we believe in working in order to better our chances of going to Heaven.

That's a very good way to put it.

Andy Pierce · Jun 14, 2021

HTacianas said:
That's a very good way to put it.

Oh well, there will always be someone who thinks I'm going to Hell.
God can reject me on Judgement Day no matter what works I do. I don't see how it's logical to call that 'trusting in my works over Jesus' if I believe my works cannot trump Jesus' will.

ArmyMatt · Jun 15, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
I am impressed by his energy. Hating requires a lot of energy. I wonder what Anderson's childhood was like. Probably not pleasant or normal.
I saw one video where Anderson held up a Bible and said "Behold your God!" as if he was literally calling the Bible God. He's on the same level as Heaven's Gate cultists.

wow. I don't recall anyone in the Bible doing that with the Torah.

ArmyMatt · Jun 15, 2021

Metaethicist said:
Slam dunk refutation.

sometimes it's so dumb and bad all I have is a "yeesh"

Justin-H.S. · Jun 15, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
I am impressed by his energy.

Imagine if that energy was put to good use in the Church?

Andy Pierce · Jun 15, 2021

daydreameranastasia said:
He openly mocks a variety of different cultures
They call him the hate-pastor because his sermons are hate filled. Not a fire and brimstone pastor like some baptist pastors…an actual hate-pastor.
He has called for the death penalty of homosexuals. He is a pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church which has been labeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-gay hate group.

While homosexuality and all sexual immorality is a sin, advocating the death penalty for it is not really the best way to go about “winning souls” (as he puts it).

I just kinda feel bad for him.

Lord have mercy.

Steven Anderson (pastor) - Wikipedia
Faithful Word Baptist Church - Wikipedia

Being called that by the SPLC is a compliment btw

Andy Pierce · Jun 15, 2021

Justin-H.S. said:
Imagine if that energy was put to good use in the Church?

I suspect about 1% of people who are this hate-filled end up leaving their hateful worldview. Rate of conversion is low.

Andy Pierce · Jun 15, 2021

I think I figured out what's at the core of their theology: Anyone who does not believe in absolute certainty of their salvation is not trusting Jesus.

I left the SBC and never really believed in certainty of salvation because there's no way to distinguish correct from incorrect certainty of salvation.

I have heard other people say 'If you are not absolutely certain of your salvation, you're going to Hell' so they're not alone in believing this. If you get saved, you obtain this magical knowledge. Nothing else you believe really matters to them.

Even only using the KJV isn't as important as certainty of salvation.

Andy Pierce · Jun 15, 2021

Metaethicist said:
More often than not, when I was in the SBC I'd encounter someone with the certainty of their damnation rather than salvation. Because that's the logical conclusion when the magic knowledge doesn't manifest.

They didn't feel the certainty, so they believed they were going to Hell?

Andy Pierce · Jun 15, 2021

Metaethicist said:
Yes. I've seen people (somewhat publicly) break down and weep saying that - like after an altar call.

I remember reading about an account from a black adolescent boy. Pretty ridiculous.

I never felt it either. I prayed and I prayed and I prayed yet never felt it. It's really stupid. None of them can prove their feelings are different from false feelings.
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will be in Heaven.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 15, 2021

It depends. If it's someone who has enough time to leisure time to read and think but they spend all of that time invested in trivial concerns or knowledge, then I do wonder about the state of society in general. Such as a person who knows more about a particular videogame, than say the wars of Religion or the Roman Empire.

Still, I think Protestants are becoming more willing to actually be invested in some Christian history. Rather than none at all.

Justin-H.S. · Jun 16, 2021

Andy Pierce said:
I suspect about 1% of people who are this hate-filled end up leaving their hateful worldview. Rate of conversion is low.

Hate is a helluva drug.

Chesterton · Jun 16, 2021

HTacianas said:
There's an idea among some protestants that go variously by Baptists, Independent Baptist, Non-denominational, Bible Baptist, and several other names. Just so everyone knows, they follow a type of Alexander Hislop/James Milton Carroll version of Christian history that has it that some loose group of people throughout history have held to the teachings of the apostles since the foundation of Christianity, but have remained outside of the Church.

I was going to say that's exactly like Ellen White and the SDAs also, but then I thought, doesn't that have to be true of every Protestant sect? I mean, you either have to believe in some "secret history", or else believe that Christianity first began with the founding of your particular group, sometime after 1517.

Chesterton · Jun 16, 2021

buzuxi02 said:
What's funny is in Greece there is a tiny sect of neopagans who teach the pagan version of this. That they are descendant of a secret underground Hellenic pagan catacomb sect that managed to survive christianization and remain hidden. Meanwhile most still have christian first AND last names. Greek custom still practises is your first name is the passed down name of your grandparents!

Years ago I came across a website for a pagan group that wants to abolish Christianity in Greece and return to the old gods. I thought it might be a joke, but then I read where they've actually engaged in some terrorist acts against the government. I can't remember their name. Is this who you're talking about?

HTacianas · Jun 16, 2021

Chesterton said:
I was going to say that's exactly like Ellen White and the SDAs also, but then I thought, doesn't that have to be true of every Protestant sect? I mean, you either have to believe in some "secret history", or else believe that Christianity first began with the founding of your particular group, sometime after 1517.

HTacianas · Jun 16, 2021

Metaethicist said:
Funny when the 'secret history' is just linking heretical sects through history haphazardly and then claiming all historical documents about the sects that show the heresies are just RCC propaganda.

That was James Milton Carrol's methodology when he wrote his pamphlet Trail of Blood. He included in that lineage the Novationists. The irony of that is staggering.

Albion · Jun 16, 2021

Chesterton said:
I was going to say that's exactly like Ellen White and the SDAs also, but then I thought, doesn't that have to be true of every Protestant sect? I mean, you either have to believe in some "secret history", or else believe that Christianity first began with the founding of your particular group, sometime after 1517.

That definitely isn't the case, although it is true of a handful of Protestant denominations (if indeed they even deserve to be considered Protestant. Many of the candidates are more often classified as cults).

HTacianas · Jun 16, 2021

Metaethicist said:
Oh yeah, I first came across that pamphlet in a footnote to a children's ABC book. Very bizarre. Have you seen the pamphlet about why it was grape juice and not wine that Jesus turned from water?

That sounds like one of those Chick Tracts. "My tradition says drinking alcohol is a sin and we know Jesus never sinned so he must have been drinking grape juice instead of wine".

I cannot fathom being apathetic to history

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