20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

sovereigngrace said:

Not true. I previously presented multiple passages that prove that, but you rejected these. They forbid your beliefs. I will repost.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

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So because they are alive, which I do not object, they must therefore be in heaven now?

Were they alive when Jesus was stating John 3:13?

sovereigngrace said:

It doesn't matter how often you deny it, these billions of rebels that reject Christ and embrace their father the devil are sinners. You have presented nothing (or can) to prove otherwise.

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And all you have is your opinion. No verse in Revelation 20 calls them sinners.

You have to lean on private interpretation that demands God's Word is out of order, and needs human understanding to correct it.

Moriah's Song said:

If they went into the "holy city"/the New Jerusalem/Paradise/heaven" then 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 would certainly be the answer to your question would it not? ...

"For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
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Only "immortal saints" can enter heaven after their/our bodies have been changed.

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Also, throughout the OT, Jerusalem is referred to as the "holy city" because it was dedicated for specific reasons 'the salvation of the world through the death and resurrection of Christ." After that was accomplished, there was no longer any reason to refer to Jerusalem as "the holy city."

That is indicated in the following verses of which I will put only two of these 6 NT references (Mat 4:5, Rev 11:2, Rev 21:10, Rev 22:19)

Mat 27:53 "...and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Rev 21:2 "...And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
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The word "saints" is found many times in the OT as well as many times in the NT. However, the following verse does IMPLY that this could very well be those "saints" of Matthew 27....

1Th 3:13..."so that he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints."​

Lastly, Satan comes and an angel of light; misusing scripture at seen in the temptation of Christ. But, just because pre-mils and dispys misuse 1 Thess and other verses to imply the "rapture of the church" and what goes with it, does not mean Matthew 27s resurrection of the "saints" was not a legitimate resurrection to be feared but used as a fulfillment of the job he came to earth to do...pave the way for the elect to enter Paradise just as the way the thief on the cross was promised by Jesus while hanging on the cross.

That thief on the cross was a part of the OT because Christ had not yet died and risen. Most of the verses you used apply to the future resurrection at the end of the age. My original post was a reply to Timtofly's post to show that there are mentioned only 2 resurrections in scripture where those resurrected are resurrected as immortal bodies and that no "rapture of the church" is ever spoken of.

There are only 2 instances in the NT where humans entered heaven of which we cannot say any more than what Paul did of his own experience where he says that he "did not know whether it was in the body or out of the body".

If Enoch an Elijah were both translated into heaven without dying how is it that it is so difficult to accept that those dead saint could have been raised after Jesus arose and ascended into heaven along with the risen Christ [as immortal bodies] where he says in John writes in 20:17-18..."

"[Mary], do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and our God." Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her.

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The plausible explanation would be that Enoch was translated to a future date, and never entered Paradise. He was then called Elijah. The next time he was translated to the mount of Transfiguration. Then came back to ascend with Christ on Sunday after the resurrection.

Otherwise Enoch was translated and was no longer Adam's flesh and blood. He was changed just like the church at the Second Coming. Jesus was saying no descendant of Adam could ever enter Paradise. Only those changed into an incorruptible image of Christ, a physical change, can allow a soul to enter Paradise.

The soul currently passes out of this corruptible body into a permanent incorruptible body immediately. Not even the living can prevent that nor proceed that process. That is the only way the soul can enter Paradise. That was the point Jesus was making.

The thief died after the Atonement was provided. This fixation or obsession on Christ waiting 3 days to arise, before there can be a physical change in any one, is human error. The thief was in Paradise that day, not 3 days later. Jesus did not lie to the thief and sin, just before being the perfect Atonement. This obsession is ludicrous. Amil tend to take the most non literal statements and turn them into hyper literal meanings. What about 1000 in Revelation 20? Now that is a literal statement. No hyper literal added meaning necessary. In fact the word soul is used. John did not define corruptible body nor incorruptible body. So no one can say this is definitely spiritual nor definitely physical. Paul explains what a physical resurrection is. That does not change for souls just Coming out of the Great Tribulation. These souls experience a first resurrection. John also already covered in his gospel what a first resurrection is. It is physical. The corruptible physical body dies. The soul is given a new incorruptible physical body. This is not a spiritual birth nor a spiritual resurrection. The soul never had access to their spirit, and that remains the case, because John never says they are given a robe of white. John states that for martyred souls in the 5th Seal, and does not mention that point in Revelation 20:4. They rule as priest:

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First is not about temporal chronology.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The first is being born of water in the womb, physical. So all the usages of the word first when it comes to the soul is and can only be physical. All the usages of the word second deal with the spirit of a man. Not the breath/air of a man. The spirit that is in the presence of God, that we are spiritually dead to. This robe of white was taken from Adam and he died spiritually the second he ate. Adam physically died that second as well. His soul went from an incorruptible sin free body to a corruptible sin nature body. Adam literally lost the image of God physically and spiritually. Thus all of Adam's flesh has to be born into corruptible sin nature bodies until that body dies and the soul enters an incorruptible permanent body. It is permanent, because the second death cannot touch it.

Now these decieved humans during Satan's Death march, have permanent incorruptible bodies. God still sends fire from heaven and consumes them. In the next instant heaven and earth pass away. Those were the last humans to declare their independence from God. They ended up in Death, Death was emptied into the Lake of Fire, and then Death itself the final enemy was cast into the Lake of Fire. Literally there can be no more Death in the New reality.

Here is the thing about Enoch, Elijah, Moses and those at the Second Coming. Their physical body was instantly changed. It was the reverse process from Adam. Now Adam's incorruptible body ceased to be. It did not go any where literally. It did not return to dust. Adam and Eve's new corruptible bodies were the bodies that went back to dust, in lieu of the incorruptible bodies that were never supposed to die and return to dust. So this change eliminates the process of having a body sit around and go back to dust. Why Moses? Moses spent 40+ days directly with God. Face to face, so Moses had to have changed for that very reason. I think Moses was changed just like Enoch was, who also had a corruptible body that was changed in the presence of God. That is why Satan demanded the body of Moses in Jude 1. Satan wanted his hands on a dead incorruptible body. God would not let Satan have that incorruptible body. Moses was also so in love with God’s people, he was willing to sacrifice himself, and be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life for them. God said no, that was God's plan to be the Atonement. At the Second Coming those on earth in Christ will not have a body that returns to dust either. The body will instantly change around the soul, then the spirit, the robe of white is wrapped around the body. The putting on of immortality like a garment.

Spiritual Jew said:

It doesn't make sense to me that John would say that he saw souls if the ones he saw had bodies.

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John is indicating something new about the soul. We are our soul. We are not our body, nor the spirit of God. Many use the term soul because it goes directly to who we are. They do not have to address the fact a body is attached. That is a given assumption that does not need proof.

Spiritual Jew said:

If there were, then why aren't they mentioned in 1 Cor 15:22-23?

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They are mentioned, the firstfruits. Christ is not plural. It says Christ the firstfruits.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (the whole of the OT and is ongoing for all in Christ of the NT); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (Those in dead human flesh).

24 Then cometh the end (those from the Millennium kingdom), when he shall have delivered up the (Millennium) kingdom to God.

Paul did not have the detail of any time references. Only John in his witness would know that there would be over 1991 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. Only John knew of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Demanding that God corroborate His plan into every single verse of Scripture is not living by faith but demanding that God gives us literal proof so we can have sound human theology. Trusting God is what God wants. God does not need for us to trust human theology.

Freedm said:

I'm with SJ on that one. Neither of those men went up to heaven. Jesus said so in John 3:13. Besides, Elijah wrote a letter to king Jehoram five years after the whirlwind. 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.

The whirlwind took him into the first heaven, which is the atmosphere.

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Are you claiming God cannot send "mail" from Paradise? God reached down and wrote on a wall for one king. God is the originator of all things.

sovereigngrace said:

Quoting a commentary is a weak response.

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Quoting those commentators who have spent their lives studying scripture for us to use as an "aid" to correctly interpreting scripture is not "a weak response" at all IMHO. After seeing how scripture has been twisted on forums like this, I should think that the more educated than ourselves would be welcomed - not condemned when a topic or scripture can't be understood by those of us who are less educated. When people get sick and they don't know what that pain is they go to a doctor. If the doctor can't diagnose it properly we go to a specialist; same with scripture.

Therefore, I quote several of the earliest writings on Matthew 27 from the Church Fathers....

The apostolic Father Ignatius was the earliest one to cite this passage, and his writings are widely accepted as authentic and are dated ca. A.D. 100-138 and more commonly to ca. A.D. 110. His writings provide valuable insights for knowledge of the early second-century church. They are the earliest and most authentic verification of the historicity of the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27 on record—one coming from a contemporary of the apostle John!

Ignatius to the Trallians
“For Says the Scripture, ‘Many bodies of the saints that slept arose,’ their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude” (chap. Ix, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, p. 70).

Ignatius to the Magnesians (AD 70-115)
“…[T]herefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He who they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead” [Chap. IX] (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I (1885). Reprinted by Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, p. 62. Emphasis added in all these citations).

Irenaeus (AD 120-200)
Irenaeus also was closely linked to the New Testament writers. He knew Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus wrote: “…He [Christ] suffered who can lead those souls aloft that followed His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact that when the holy hour of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies” (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus XXVIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, Alexander Roberts, ibid., 572-573). This is followed (in XXIX) by this statement: “The Gospel according to Matthew was written to the Jews. For they had particular stress upon the fact that Christ [should be] of the seed of David. Matthew also, who had a still greater desire [to establish this point], took particular pains to afford them convincing proof that Christ is the seed of David…” (ibid., 573).

Freedm said:

Which has not yet occurred? Are you sure about that?

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Yes, I am certain because Christ has clearly not yet returned. And that is when 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 will be fulfilled.

If all the scriptures were written prior to this event, then you have no scriptures to confirm that it hasn't happened, which means you're relying on your own understanding. Your position on this is not as strong as you think.

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If 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is already fulfilled, then what about all the Christians who have died since then? Why would Paul not mention anything about their resurrection in a passage dealing with the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality?

Well, I would think it was nonsense too if I was expecting a resurrection to involve physical bodies coming out of their graves for all to see. That certainly has not happened, but that's not what the resurrection is according to Paul. So on what basis do you think it's utter nonsense?

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What Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians is clearly regarding a bodily resurrection. That has not yet happened. All of the dead in Christ from all-time will be resurrected at the same time, which will be when the last trumpet sounds at His second coming. Why would some be resurrected before that? If that occurred, then where does scripture speak of the resurrection of any believers who died since then?

Timtofly said:

John is indicating something new about the soul. We are our soul. We are not our body, nor the spirit of God. Many use the term soul because it goes directly to who we are. They do not have to address the fact a body is attached. That is a given assumption that does not need proof.

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He said he saw the souls of those who were slain. If he was referring to them body, soul and spirit as "souls" then that would be a ridiculous way of wording it. Instead, it should say he saw the souls who were slain and not that he saw the souls of them that were slain. Instead, it strongly implies that he saw a part of them, which was their souls.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 gives the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality and it says only Christ has been resurrected unto bodily immortality so far. Next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming and that has not yet occurred. There is no scriptural support for the idea that anyone but Christ has been resurrected with an immortal body yet.

Timtofly said:

They are mentioned, the firstfruits. Christ is not plural. It says Christ the firstfruits.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (the whole of the OT and is ongoing for all in Christ of the NT); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (Those in dead human flesh).

24 Then cometh the end (those from the Millennium kingdom), when he shall have delivered up the (Millennium) kingdom to God.

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No, it's saying that Christ Himself is the firstfruits. That means He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. It's the same thing that the following verses teach:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, next in order to be resurrected unto bodily immortality are those who are His at His second coming. Do you think that OT saints are not His? If so, you are sadly mistaken. They have not yet been resurrected unto bodily immortality. That won't happen for them apart from us, which is what the following passage is about:

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Moriah's Song said:

Quoting those who are well known to be respected commentators like Matthew Henry who has been, and is still used by many, many pastors is much better than the interpretations that have been posted on scripture on this topic IMHO of course.

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The problem, to me, is that you quoted him along with Jamieson, Fausset & Brown without offering any of your own commentary. What am I supposed to do with that? What if I just responded with quotes from Bible commentators that agree with me? Wouldn't that be kind of ridiculous for us to have a "discussion" where we're just sharing the thoughts of other people back and forth? I'm talking to you, not them.

I'm not even sure what they were saying in those quotes. I find that these popular old Bible commentators were often not clear about what they were trying to say. It would have been much better if you gave your understanding of what they were saying so that I could see why you were quoting them.

With that said, please don't bother doing so now. I'm just saying that if you ever quote a Bible commentator, you should tell us why you're quoting them and give your understanding of what they said (since your understanding of what they said might not be the same as mine or someone else's).

Spiritual Jew said:

He said he saw the souls of those who were slain. If he was referring to them body, soul and spirit as "souls" then that would be a ridiculous way of wording it. Instead, it should say he saw the souls who were slain and not that he saw the souls of them that were slain. Instead, it strongly implies that he saw a part of them, which was their souls.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 gives the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality and it says only Christ has been resurrected unto bodily immortality so far. Next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming and that has not yet occurred. There is no scriptural support for the idea that anyone but Christ has been resurrected with an immortal body yet.

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No, what he saw was the soul's glorification. They already had bodies. They were being glorified. The body was not the point. The body does not need to be part of the narrative.

keras said:

The Early Church Fathers, the Commentators, plus all the scholars up until now, cannot have had the truth about prophecy. Matthew 11:25
Daniel 12:4 & 8 make it clear that the prophesies are sealed until the time of the end. Only then, will a few understand. Daniel 12:10

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Why are you acting as if Daniel 12 is talking about all prophecy? It's not. No, it's only talking about certain prophecies in the book of Daniel.

You're mistaken about what "the time of the end" means, anyway. The time of the end is referring to the New Testament era. The New Testament is what gives us understanding of Old Testament prophecies. So, your statement that the Early Church Fathers and other commentators and scholars up until now could not have had the truth about prophecy is false.

Do you not think that Paul, Peter, John, etc. knew the truth about prophecy? Of course they did and they shared it with others both verbally and in the scriptures that we have today. To think that no one has understood the prophecies so far because it supposedly wasn't yet the time of the end is simply not true.

John and Peter knew what "the time of the end" meant and it's not what you think.

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The time of the end started long ago and will last up until the second coming of Christ.

Timtofly said:

No, what he saw was the soul's glorification. They already had bodies. They were being glorified. The body was not the point. The body does not need to be part of the narrative.

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Your view contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 as well as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. It's as simple as that. Paul taught that no one besides Christ will be resurrected unto bodily immortality until the last trumpet at Christ's second coming. If you're comfortable with holding to a view that blatantly contradicts those passages, so be it.

Spiritual Jew said:

There is no scriptural support for the idea that anyone but Christ has been resurrected with an immortal body yet.

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There is nothing in God's Word about an immortal body. That is Satan's Greek mythology. You are not even listening to Paul. Paul claims we put on immortality at the Second Coming. John says they put on robes of white. This is being glorified. They already had incorruptible permanent bodies from God. Putting on immortality is putting the spirit back on top of a physical incorruptible permanent body from God.

Before the Cross, those literal souls had to wait for the incorruptible body. A soul had some form, because they can see each other. The witch could see the soul of Samuel. Not sure if Saul did. But they had no physical body. That was tasting death. A soul in Abraham's bosom, was tasting death.

At the Cross they recieved their incorruptible bodies. They were resurrected, into bodies, and redeemed. They were not sin nature bodies. They ascended into Paradise sometime on Sunday. It happened between the time Mary saw Jesus and before He returned to meet the two disciples on the road.

All in Christ up until the Second Coming recieve an incorruptible body at the point the soul leaves this corruptible body. No one can taste death any more. They are Christ the firstfruits. They are in Paradise. These dead bodies we live in will soon be resurrected at the Second Coming. Changed in mid air.

At the Second Coming our spirit will be given to us, and we will no longer need the Holy Spirit. We will be totally redeemed. We will be glorified as one church and presented to God like John claims in Revelation 7. The full image of God restored to Adam's family.

Spiritual Jew said:

The problem, to me, is that you quoted him along with Jamieson, Fausset & Brown without offering any of your own commentary. What am I supposed to do with that? What if I just responded with quotes from Bible commentators that agree with me? Wouldn't that be kind of ridiculous for us to have a "discussion" where we're just sharing the thoughts of other people back and forth? I'm talking to you, not them.

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Normally when posters give their opinion, the response is: "that is just your opinion." Hearing that all the time gets old after a while.

Now people complain because they get no opinion? Welcome to the internet.

Guojing said:

so for you, you believed the ascension of David took place, not immediately after Jesus resurrected, but at ad 70.

alright then

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Correct.

sovereigngrace said:

Of course you do. Extreme Preterists are fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70. For the rest of us, we are obsessed with Christ's sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection. The cross is at the center of our faith. It is the most significant event in our history.

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Not sure why you think those two things are different. It's all part of the same story. Christ's resurrection was necessary in order to remove the old sacrificial atonement system and bring in the new eternal life system.

The funny thing is, you believe Jesus has waited over 2000 years to take advantage of his power over death. I believe he only waited 40 years.