How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟415,058.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Same thing as Isaiah 11:6-9, which says the "lion" and "wolf" and the "snake" won't hurt and destroy on God's holy mountain (Mt. Zion), is speaking of the end of divinely decreed wars against Jerusalem from the jews' national enemies. Note that when Nebuchadnezzer attacks Israel in the 500s BC, he is called "A lion coming up from his thicket to make the land desolate" (Jer 4:5-7). The Babylonian conquest is described as follows: "a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities" (Jeremiah 5:6). The wild, dangerous animals are metaphors for the natural enemies of the Hebrew tribes during wartime.

Huh?

It seems that you often neglect that "symbolism" is an integral part of these prophesies. That's why it says Christ is the Root, the Branch, and it speaks of Lambs and Wolves. Jesus Christ was sent, the messenger of the Covenant, to confirm these promises made (Luke 1:68-75). And we can see that Romans chapter 15 illustrates the promises made to the fathers, quoted from "this very Isaiah chapter 11", were fulfilled in Christ. He is the true Holy City come down from heaven which makes us the representation of the Holy City, New Jerusalem. It's not as cut and dried as it might first seem.

Romans 15:9-12
  • "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
  • And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
  • And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
  • And again, Esaias (Isaiah) saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."
This Root of Jesse prophecy, along with the comments about the reigning over Gentiles is directly from Isaiah 11 speaking of the same wolf and lambs.

Isaiah 11:1
  • "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:"
Isaiah 11:10
  • "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Romans chapter 15 declares to us that these prophecies of Isaiah 11 are fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

And if you will read Mark 16, we should also consider the other verses present too.

Isaiah 11:8
  • "And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."
Harmonizes with Mark chapter 16, declaring the child of God can pick up serpents and cannot be hurt by them. The same symbolic principle is in view. The wolves, asp, goats, etc. are symbols of FALSE TEACHERS of the congregation among believers (child, lamb, etc.) Those baptized in the Spirit cannot be hurt by the serpent. For example, they can play in the serpent's den but will not be hurt (decieved). Nor the lamb be hurt by the wolf (even if he is in sheep's clothing). It's all the exact same principle of the "seal" or security placed upon the Child of God by faith in Christ.

Therefore, in Isaiah 65:23 reads:

Isa 65:25
(25) The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The Holy Mountain speaks about all the nations of the Earth coming into the Kingdom of God (New Testament congregation) by the way of Jesus Christ since Pentecost! The language about israel and Judah being gathered from the four corners of the Earth refers to all of God's people (spiritual Israel). This is obviously a prophecy about Jesus Christ. He is the root of Jesse and the Branch of this kingdom.

Many people don't understand the full importance of these verses because they are confused about the language of the animals and children dwelling together. This is spiritual language, and all we have to do is search the scriptures to know what God has in mind. Wolves, leopards, lions, bears and snakes (asps and cockatrices) are used to describe Satan, his kingdom, and all those who follow him. Look these up yourself and learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. Your quoted interpretation isn't accurate because this is not what God is talking about.

..something to think about.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.


The wolf and the lamb shall feed together(Isaiah 65:25)

Even if it is a metaphor, maybe it is maybe it isn't, it still couldn't possibly be meaning something that is already applicable. The following, as one example, clearly proves it.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This is something that obviously still applies to right now as well, meaning the time we are presently living in. This was already true in the first century and that it is still true today, meaning Matthew 7:15.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain(Isaiah 65:25)


There is no way in a million years, in any sense, that this, not that anyone is claiming they are, so, I'm not claiming anyone is saying they are, I'm simply trying to make a point here in general---Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves--- is a description of this---The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain. The point being, these things are a contradiction if both apply to the same era, rather than one applies to this present era, the other applies to the era after the 2nd coming. It is after the 2nd coming when this will be the case---The wolf and the lamb shall feed together---regardless whether that's meaning in or literal sense or is a metaphor.

The latter clearly involves lambs and wolves, the same thing the former is involving. Obviously then, in order for the latter to be true, even if both passages should be understood metaphorically, it has to at least be meaning after a time that the former is no longer true. Clearly, the time when the former is no longer true, it has not arrived yet. Not in the first century nor even up until now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,188
25,222
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,728,999.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
(Continues from previous post)

Mat 24:15-16
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

That verse is telling the true witnesses of Christ that when they "see" the abomination stand in the Churches (the only Holy Place on earth besides believers, after the cross!), then they are not to stay, but flee to the Mountains. Sorry, Hammster, NOT ot the literal mountains of Israel in the Middle East, as if they could be any security or safety. Not an alleged Holy place in a literal Temple in Jerusalem 70AD (because it was no longer Holy to qualify for this prophecy anyway!), but flee from the Holy Place which after the cross is the external Church. It is the only Holy place that even could become abominable. Flee to the mountains (Kingdom) of God. Not literal Heaven, not literal mountains.

Psa 133:3
(3) As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Mic 4:1
(1) But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.


Joel 3:18

(18) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.


These is the mountains that we are to flee to when we see abomination stand in the Holy Place. Not no mounds of dirt in the Middle East. Judaea after the cross is symbolically the Church where Jesus Christ is a chief cornerstone right now. Not a province in Israel in 70AD nor today. When that city becomes abominable, we are to flee from it to the protection of the real Kingdom of God, because the city will no longer be the representation of God's habitation. The Church is fallen. She has become a harlot, Revelation 18:2. And this is what the language of the voice from Heaven calling the witnesses who were dead in the street, symbolizes. They are called to come out of Jerusalem and ascend to the Kingdom of heaven.

Revelation chapter eighteen also illustrates the calling of God's servants out of an abominable City which shall fall as babylon.


Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


And they stood afar off WHERE God is. Where the cloud of heaven is! Because His congregation had turned to lawlessness, so that spiritually it was as babylon the great. This is the spiritual condition of the Church as I can see today! This is the reason the witnesses come out. Because God is going to bring Judgement upon His unfaithful congregation all over the world, and He doesn't want His witnesses there that they may be partaker with them in sin, or receive of this city's plagues. For that City is under wrath of God. We saw what happened to Jersualem in Old Testament as an example for the New!

Jer 23:14
(14) I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.


Again, this is why the witnesses are called out. No they were not literally killed and so they were not literally raised up from that non-literal death, nor do they go into 'literal' heaven as yet. For now, they are called to life to remove themselves from these streets where they laid, and go to the only place where they will be secure. To the mountains of God, to the spiritual heavens.

Isa 52:7
(7) How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

The true believers 'stand upon their feet' and by the Word of God come up to this mountain retreat that their feet will stand on a firm foundation of Truth. And the enemies of God beheld them as they went in a cloud. And there is no more ministering in this House after they leave, it is now destined to fall.

Now the cloud in scripture symbolizes God's Glory. For example:


Exo 40:35

(35) And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Num 16:42
(42) And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.

1Ki 8:11
(11) So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

And many other such verses. See, Hammster? The cloud signifies the Glory of God. Let repeat one more time:

Clouds of Heaven = Glory of God!

This is a time of judgement upon this house when the priests will not be able to minister by reason of the Glory of God. When we read that the believers are told to come to heaven by God, and they stand up from death in the streets and go into a cloud, it's signifying that they are in the Glory of God. God is now going to make that unfaithful city desolate, and He doesn't want them there to be caught up in it. Which is again evidence that this was not talking about the rapture because if it was, then time would be no more and the end of the world/age would happen right then and there. Because God swore that at the sound of the seventh Trumpet, there would be time no more.

Rev 10:6-7
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And so there is not any question that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, it is the end of time when the mystery of God is finished, and not when a tenth part of the city falls, Revelation 11:13. The rapture is when the whole world is destroyed and the judgement sits at 'last' trump (1st Corinthians 15:52). It is not this time of symbolic Church death when they cannot work. The last trumpet means exactly that. The last! For example, there will be no more trumpets sounding after the last. And it is obvious that the last trumpet hasn't sounded when these are called to remove themselves from the city and fear this mobilization. The enemies of God fear because the very foundation of their Church is shaken because of this exit, and though they do not repent of the iniquities which made this city abominable, they are troubled by this exodus of true believers just as the Judaizers troubled Paul and the Apostles. This is their fear of what is going on, and the fear of wicked men usually manifests itself in reviling, speaking evil against the saints, and in unrighteous anger.


Luk 21:25-26
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Those of the sea is symbolic of the unsaved world. The Church were fishers of men from the sea (world). The sea and waves roaring illustrate the world is full of iniquity and beating against the ships (Churches). There is distress and anguish as the unsaved are in a state of quandary, confused over evil of the world. And the Church has no answers because they have forsaken the God of the Bible, and are themselves running to and fro seeking the Word, but unable to find it. The city echoing the noise of iniquity in the sea. This is the fear in the enemies of the true Church. Sounds familiar today? There is a judgment upon these people, His New Testament unfaithful congregation of God! Because this is the vengeance of the lord ushering in the coming of that which is perfect or complete.

Luk 21:22
(22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

It's the days of vengeance and the completion of all that was written. It is a time of God's judgment upon them for killing (silence) the testimony of His faithful and True Saints, for spiritually shedding blood by their hatred. When the believers leave the Church their works leave with them, and there is nothing of the waters of life left in the Church. All you see is a false doctrine that comes out of flase prophets and Christs in the congregation right now to deceive many to believe their lies. This is part of God's judgment upon her. They shall drink wormwood. There is no candle or lamp burning, as they are left in darkness. This city shall be left desolate. The unfaithful New Testament congregation is being judged RIGHT NOW before Christ return to judge the rest of the world. The judgment must come upon God's house first, remember?

Just as Jerusalem of the Old Testament fell, so Jerusalem of the New Testament is under the SAME JUDGMENT for her spiritual fornication and abominations.
Tldr. Isaiah 19 shows the cloud language as judgement. And elsewhere.
 
Upvote 0

Jeffwhosoever

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student
Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Sep 21, 2009
28,133
3,878
Southern US
✟417,189.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
No more death is a present reality in Christ.

I’d be curious to know where that is taught in scripture.
Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

No more death means no more death. Once eternity begins, in Revelation 21, we live forever and all the former things have passed away, forever. I think they will be possibly visible (burning hell) but so far away as to not influence us in the new heaven and new earth, but may serve as a visible reminder of the evil that used to exist both in the world and in us (our sinful nature). Perhaps light years away but like the light we see now in the sky from long ago. That sinful nature is gone forever in eternity in God's redeemed, angels, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and his demons are burning literally in hell forever. What happens to the lost humans who never accept the Lord is a point of contention that is beyond the scope of Eschatology, so I won't even mention it. But those who are in eternity after the 1000 years (whether a symbolic or literal 1000 years) we are back to the conditions of Eden, with no sin, no death, no tears, no sufferring. We will be together with the Lord forever, both on Spirit and in resurrection bodies that will never age, never tire, never die. For us, the second death holds no power.

Don't all Christians believe in the eternal state, regardless of your eschatological views of how we get there? I thought I understood Historicists, Preterists (excluding full preterism which isn't orthodox or allowed on Christian Forums), Futurists and Idealists all agreed that an eternity is coming regardless of how we get there where we live forever in body and spirit in redeemed and resurrected bodies and serve the Lord forever without sin and without death, as Eden began originally. But Satan will be roasting far away with his demons and beyond the ability to influence us ever again. No more snakes in the garden of God's future Kingdom.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟799,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

No more death means no more death. Once eternity begins, in Revelation 21, we live forever and all the former things have passed away, forever. I think they will be possibly visible (burning hell) but so far away as to not influence us in the new heaven and new earth, but may serve as a visible reminder of the evil that used to exist both in the world and in us (our sinful nature). Perhaps light years away but like the light we see now in the sky from long ago. That sinful nature is gone forever in eternity in God's redeemed, angels, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and his demons are burning literally in hell forever. What happens to the lost humans who never accept the Lord is a point of contention that is beyond the scope of Eschatology, so I won't even mention it. But those who are in eternity after the 1000 years (whether a symbolic or literal 1000 years) we are back to the conditions of Eden, with no sin, no death, no tears, no sufferring. We will be together with the Lord forever, both on Spirit and in resurrection bodies that will never age, never tire, never die. For us, the second death holds no power.

Don't all Christians believe in the eternal state, regardless of your eschatological views of how we get there? I thought I understood Historicists, Preterists (excluding full preterism which isn't orthodox or allowed on Christian Forums), Futurists and Idealists all agreed that an eternity is coming regardless of how we get there where we live forever in body and spirit in redeemed and resurrected bodies and serve the Lord forever without sin and without death, as Eden began originally. But Satan will be roasting far away with his demons and beyond the ability to influence us ever again. No more snakes in the garden of God's future Kingdom.

Yes all Christians believe that, thanks to the saving work of Christ on the cross, we spend eternity in the presence of God after we die. Even full preterists
(IO adherents being the lone exception)
We simply differ on where, when and how that happens.

A lot of practical conundrum’s in your view that I can see right off the bat. Firstly, since eating from the the tree of life in the garden was necessary for eternal life both before and after the fall, We know Adam was not intrinsically immortal. Had he not fallen and chosen not to eat from the tree of life, which he was free to eat from or abstain from before the fall, he would have physically died.
The fall did not bring in physical death to the world. There were seasons with falling leaves, spiders, sharks, Venus fly traps etc… all Before the fall.

The fall brought in eternal separation from God as the consequence of physical death, It did not bring in physical death itself.

The Revelation 21 passage States that on the new heavens and earth, just outside the gates of the city are adulterers harlot monger’s liars fornicators and other sinners.

It also states that the gates of the city remain open and the spirit and bride call from inside the city to outside the city to all who thirst to come drink the water of life freely.

Since the already saved do not thirst for the water of life (one drink and you shall never thirst again) who are those there who are "thirsty" that you say the spirit and the bride are calling to from inside the cities gates on the new heavens and earth?

No more tears? So you’re saying we will not even be able to cry tears of joy? If no more death means no more death, then certainly No more tears means no more tears, right? It will be some sort of Prozac like existence? Not to joyful not to sorrowful, steady as she goes even keel eternity?

seems to me you have some issues that you yet need to reconcile with your own view before you can hope yo stand it up as a viable alternative to mine, as it appears very inconsistent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Everything about the physical is death.

We are in dead corruptible bodies. This life is the only death we will experience. The soul does not physically die. The body physically dies. The soul goes from one physical body to another physical body. That is what the rapture is for. The soul goes from the dead corruptible to the permanent incorruptible physical body.

The same change those in Christ have now. Except the soul goes to a permanent incorruptible body in Paradise.
You're not answering the question. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by "dead in Christ". Can you explain that phrase to me?
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
That was at the Cross.

Not 70AD.
I think it was 70 AD because of what Paul said here:

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.

By the time he said this Jesus had already been crucified and resurrected, yet the night was not over yet.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
I’m not sure I understand your question.

If those in the past, faced the tribulation of their time, do they not now know: what the tribulation of our time will be (in principle)?

At least what it will be "like"?

The answer should be encouraging, not distancing?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,188
25,222
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,728,999.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
If those in the past, faced the tribulation of their time, do they not now know: what the tribulation of our time will be (in principle)?

At least what it will be "like"?

The answer should be encouraging, not distancing?
I have no idea what they know.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,188
25,222
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,728,999.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
But we know they went before us.

We know they did not love their lives to death.

And now we know that we must not love our lives to death, either?
Okay.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic

I just mean not only do we not have to "concern ourselves", we know why we need not be concerned.

"Fear not those who can destroy the body but not the soul, fear Him who after He has killed is able to throw into Hell" (from memory, gospels)

Another way of putting it is: "Fear not death as if it is out of the ordinary, fear losing through death that which keeps extra-ordinary "extra-ordinary""
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

No more death means no more death. Once eternity begins, in Revelation 21, we live forever and all the former things have passed away, forever. I think they will be possibly visible (burning hell) but so far away as to not influence us in the new heaven and new earth, but may serve as a visible reminder of the evil that used to exist both in the world and in us (our sinful nature). Perhaps light years away but like the light we see now in the sky from long ago. That sinful nature is gone forever in eternity in God's redeemed, angels, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and his demons are burning literally in hell forever. What happens to the lost humans who never accept the Lord is a point of contention that is beyond the scope of Eschatology, so I won't even mention it. But those who are in eternity after the 1000 years (whether a symbolic or literal 1000 years) we are back to the conditions of Eden, with no sin, no death, no tears, no sufferring. We will be together with the Lord forever, both on Spirit and in resurrection bodies that will never age, never tire, never die. For us, the second death holds no power.

Don't all Christians believe in the eternal state, regardless of your eschatological views of how we get there? I thought I understood Historicists, Preterists (excluding full preterism which isn't orthodox or allowed on Christian Forums), Futurists and Idealists all agreed that an eternity is coming regardless of how we get there where we live forever in body and spirit in redeemed and resurrected bodies and serve the Lord forever without sin and without death, as Eden began originally. But Satan will be roasting far away with his demons and beyond the ability to influence us ever again. No more snakes in the garden of God's future Kingdom.

Obviously, when the dead in Christ rise first, and the rapture that follows, eternity has begun for all of these. How could it not? Once someone becomes bodily immortal, if that is not an eternal state at that point, what state is it? If the thousand years follows the 2nd coming, which is what I believe to be the case, this would have to mean that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the eternal age, the fact there would already be those that have put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming. But not everyone puts on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, though. Some are killed during the 2nd coming, some are spared during the 2nd coming, thus the latter remain mortal during the thousand years.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You're not answering the question. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by "dead in Christ". Can you explain that phrase to me?
I did. Us on earth are both dead and in Christ. Those in Paradise are alive and in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think it was 70 AD because of what Paul said here:

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.

By the time he said this Jesus had already been crucified and resurrected, yet the night was not over yet.
Yep, night is still nearly over. Nope it was not over in 70AD.
 
Upvote 0

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Yep, night is still nearly over. Nope it was not over in 70AD.
But Paul said "the day is almost here". Surely you can't think 2000 years later is "almost here".

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟125,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
But Paul said "the day is almost here". Surely you can't think 2000 years later is "almost here".

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over
; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.
I agree with Paul. The day is almost here. I would agree with him if I lived 50 years after he died. I would agree with him if I lived 350 years after he died. The time between me living and him dying does not change the truth of what he claimed. We are still in the darkness, until the Second Coming. God has not brought the world through the fire and out onto the other side yet.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Freedm

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
740
172
42
Austin TX
✟40,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I agree with Paul. The day is almost here. I would agree with him if I lived 50 years after he died. I would agree with him if I lived 350 years after he died. The time between me living and him dying does not change the truth of what he claimed. We are still in the darkness, until the Second Coming. God has not brought the world through the fire and out onto the other side yet.
You would have to change the meaning of the word "almost". I'd rather not.
 
Upvote 0