Conditional Election vs. Unconditional Election

Humble_Disciple

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How can someone be deserving of God’s wrath if they have been created by God incapable of meeting the expectations that He implemented knowing full well that they are incapable of meeting them?

I don't claim to understand God's sense of justice in regards to His plan for salvation. I just hope to be as honest as possible about what the Bible teaches regarding it.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
 
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bling

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Please elaborate.
Being "just" is the treating of everyone equally in the areas that really matter, which is salvation. Yes, you can be born a wealth, well educated Jew or a poor, lamb Gentile, but as Paul points out in Romans 9,10 and 11 those things just really does not matter when it comes to the all important salvation.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Being "just" is the treating of everyone equally in the areas that really matter, which is salvation. Yes, you can be born a wealth, well educated Jew or a poor, lamb Gentile, but as Paul points out in Romans 9,10 and 11 those things just really does not matter when it comes to the all important salvation.

I'd again like to say that I don't believe that Arminians are unsaved. I just don't believe that Arminianism is logically consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Here is an outline of what Paul teaches in Romans 9:19-21:

Sermon Outline for Romans 9:19-21
God’s Absolute Sovereignty in Predestination
  1. The Objections
    1. God is unrighteous
    2. God cannot blame those whom He hardens
  2. The Answer – “Who are you, O man?”
  3. God’s Sovereignty Expressed
    1. The illustration of the potter and the clay
      1. The potter has power over the clay
        1. The power is not just strength
        2. The power is the authority, the right to do as the potter pleases
      2. The vessels cannot question or protest the potter’s purpose
      3. The difference in the vessels
        1. Some are unto honor
        2. Some are unto dishonor
      4. The purpose is to reveal God’s sovereignty to determine the final destiny
        1. to honor / to dishonor
        2. to salvation / to damnation
        3. without regard to works
  4. God’s Sovereignty Questioned
    1. The issue
  5. God’s Sovereignty Confirmed
    1. Paul does not give in to the objection, and does not change the truth expressed
    2. Paul does not apologize or water down God’s absolute sovereignty
    3. Paul’s interest does not include being popular
    4. Paul’s answer
      1. You are talking back against God
        1. Rebellion
        2. Contradiction
      2. “Who are you, O man?”
        1. The Creator and the creature
          1. The Almighty
          2. The human – proud, haughty, arrogant, wicked, evil, rebellious, selfish speck of dust
        2. The creature has no right to ever reply against the Creator – “What are you doing?”
          https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/acton_bill/SermonNotes_rom/Rom_9_19-21/78.cfm
 
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98cwitr

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I'd again like to say that I don't believe that Arminians are unsaved. I just don't believe that Arminianism is logically consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Here is an outline of what Paul teaches in Romans 9:19-21:

These days I find it very hard to separate Arminianism from Pelaganism though. Maybe our contemporary Arminian members can show us where the two divide.

Pelagianism is a heterodox Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace. Pelagius (c.  355 – c.  420 AD), a British ascetic and philosopher, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments. He also taught that it was unjust to punish one person for the sins of another; therefore, infants are born blameless. Pelagius accepted no excuse for sinful behavior and taught that all Christians, regardless of their station in life, should live unimpeachable, sinless lives.

Pelagianism - Wikipedia
 
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Humble_Disciple

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These days I find it very hard to separate Arminianism from Pelaganism though. Maybe our contemporary Arminian members can show us where the two divide.
Pelagianism - Wikipedia

I don't like to call myself a Calvinist because of its connotation of double predestination. I believe that God simply passes over those who aren't predestined unto salvation, rather than predestining their damnation or being the author of their sin. As far as I know, Martin Luther taught single predestination.
 
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98cwitr

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I don't like to call myself a Calvinist because of its connotation of double predestination. I believe that God simply passes over those who aren't predestined unto salvation, rather than predestining their damnation or even being the author of their sin. As far as I know, Martin Luther taught single predestination.

Single or double predestination is a bit off topic, so I won't delve into it (albeit I'd like to have that discussion); but we aren't baptized into Luther or Calvin, but Christ. Scripture seems crystal clear on the issue of God's sovereignty over man, including salvation, IMO.

I think Reformed/Systematic Theology is spot on with its teachings. Take God's Word as Gospel...all of it or none of it.
 
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fhansen

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Conditional election teaches that the elect are predestined by God to salvation due to God's foreknowledge that they would believe on their own free will, while unconditional election teaches that God predestines the elect according to His sovereignty alone, without regard to the elect's free will.

What I'd like to know is why it even matters whether we accept unconditional vs. conditional election. How can we claim to know that one is true and not the other? And what difference does it make if both unconditional election and conditional election result in the salvation of the elect?
Man is a morally accountable being, even in his weakened, fallen state. We need to know that, that we must will rightly and act accordingly, with the help of grace, with the help of God-and that's all we really can know and need to know. And in real life, in practice, I think most believers actually live more or less that way, regardless of professed theology.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I don't like to call myself a Calvinist because of its connotation of double predestination. I believe that God simply passes over those who aren't predestined unto salvation, rather than predestining their damnation or being the author of their sin. As far as I know, Martin Luther taught single predestination.
So, you don't believe that God loves the world then, as John 3:16 says? You think He only loves some of the world?

Have you ever read these passages:

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

How can your belief in unconditional election be reconciled with passages like these? Clearly, God wants all people to repent and to be saved. With that being the case, it makes no sense to think that He purposely makes it impossible for some to repent and be saved.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Single or double predestination is a bit off topic, so I won't delve into it (albeit I'd like to have that discussion); but we aren't baptized into Luther or Calvin, but Christ. Scripture seems crystal clear on the issue of God's sovereignty over man, including salvation, IMO.

I think Reformed/Systematic Theology is spot on with its teachings. Take God's Word as Gospel...all of it or none of it.

As far as I know, most of the historical Reformed doctrinal confessions taught single, rather than double, predestination. Are you familiar with the difference between the two?
 
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bling

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I'd again like to say that I don't believe that Arminians are unsaved. I just don't believe that Arminianism is logically consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Here is an outline of what Paul teaches in Romans 9:19-21:

The first huge problem is taking a few verses out of Romans and acting like these verses stand alone from what Paul has been teaching throughout Romans. Paul’s letter to the Romans is used in even secular universities to show how to use logic to build premise on premise to your conclusion. It is: “Because this is true, then this must also be true” and so on. There is also the very best use of diatribes in teach found with Paul in Romans, which is also used in both philosophy and educational university class rooms. I say all this to point out Paul is perfectly consistent in Romans addressing the issue in Rome. Paul is not going off on some tangent talking about “free will”, which would be out of context for the rest of Romans.

Paul is really trying to resolve one huge main issue in this Large body of Christians in Rome and he is the very best person for the job, being a Jew of Jew (willing to give up his heavenly position to save Jews (Ro. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race) and the Apostle to the Gentiles. The huge problem Paul is addressing throughout the Christian Romans is the lack of fellowship between the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians. If Paul had established the Church in Rome, it would not have had this problem, since all his established congregations were missed Jew and Gentile. The Church in Rome was most likely established by Jewish Christians who left Jerusalem at the time of Steven’s stoning, so they knew nothing about Gentile Christians. During the reign of Claudius all the Jews were thrown out of Rome which would include Christian Jews. At that time, they would have come in contact with Gentile Christians and returned to Rome after Claudius allowed them to return and some must have gone to the Gentiles, but established separate meeting places, most likely outside the Jewish areas of Rome.

The overriding subject of Paul in all of Romans has to be kept in mind when interpreting what Paul is talking about in Romans 9. Scholars have divided up Paul’s letter which can be followed easily in the Greek, with Romans 9 being part of Romans 9, 10, and 11. Generally Paul is teaching in Ro. 9,10 and 11, that although the Jews are much better prepared for the Messiah and a moral Christian life, it has not helped them, over the Gentiles, to accept God’s salvation. Paul even goes on to say, it is his hope that the Gentiles accepting salvation might help bring the Jews back. All this teaching is done in the style Paul has been using which is diatribes (debates with an imaginary student to avoid making it just a lecture).

Preachers try to tell you what Paul is talking about in Romans 9, but look at Paul’s conclusion to what he has been talking about: Ro. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

The Jews being Jews (made for a very special purpose) became a stumbling stone to them and harder for them to accept righteousness by faith. This theme will be carried on in the next two chapters.

The whole of chp. 9 is pushing the idea the Jews and Gentiles are equal in the one area which counts: “righteousness”, which is also the idea pushed in chapters 9,10,and 11, which is also pushed in the whole letter to the Roman Christians.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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So, you don't believe that God loves the world then, as John 3:16 says? You think He only loves some of the world?

Have you ever read these passages:

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

How can your belief in unconditional election be reconciled with passages like these? Clearly, God wants all people to repent and to be saved. With that being the case, it makes no sense to think that He purposely makes it impossible for some to repent and be saved.

How would one interpret the above passages of scripture in light of other passages which suggest that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect?

According to Calvinists, passages of scripture which refer to the call of salvation as applying to all people really mean all kinds of people, meaning that the elect will be called from among all races, nations, social classes, etc.
 
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BobRyan

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Conditional election teaches that the elect are predestined by God to salvation due to God's foreknowledge that they would believe on their own free will, while unconditional election teaches that God predestines the elect according to His sovereignty alone, without regard to the elect's free will.

What I'd like to know is why it even matters whether we accept unconditional vs. conditional election. How can we claim to know that one is true and not the other? And what difference does it make if both unconditional election and conditional election result in the salvation of the elect?

Evangelism under the unconditional election model that is logically consistent.
1. rent out a big auditorium.
2. Speaker shows up
3. See who else shows up
4. See who just-so-happens to decide to accept Christ while at that Auditorium.

Evangelism under the conditional election model that is logically consistent.
1. Rent out a big auditorium
2. Do lot's and lot's of advertising - strong arguments for persuading to attend
3. Speaker shows up -
4. Lots of people show up in response to outreach and advertising
5. Speaker makes appeals "we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" - 2 Cor 5
6. See who decides to accept Christ as a direct result of hearing etc. Faith comes from hearing Rom 10
 
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BobRyan

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How would one interpret the above passages of scripture in light of other passages which suggest that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect?

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" -- "yes really"

John 3:16 "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave..." --- "yes really"

2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" --- "yes really"

Is 5:4 "What MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" -- God's lament.

==================

By contrast to almost all of scripture - some will "camp out" in a misunderstanding of Rom 9 that they will not correct when confronted with the gaps in that sort of method.
 
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BobRyan

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cooperative salvation versus operative salvation,
Or God plus man versus God alone.

If God alone cannot save all mankind then the fault would be "God alone'.

By contrast - scripture says "God is NOT partial" Rom 2:11

The failed model that suggests God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved vs los does not pass the test of scripture.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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This is Martin Luther on the extent of the atonement:

Luther, Lectures on Romans (1515-1516), from the scholia at Rom. 15:33 (“Now the God of peace be with you all,” LW 25:375–76): “The second argument [against predestination] is that ‘God desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim. 2:4). . . . these verses must always be understood as pertaining to the elect only, as the apostle says in 2 Tim. 2:10 ‘everything for the sake of the elect.’ For in an absolute sense Christ did not die for all, because he says: ‘This is my blood which is poured out for you’ and ‘for many’—he does not say: for all—‘for the forgiveness of sins’ (Mark 14:24, Matt. 26:28).”
Was Luther a Calvinist?

As I said in my original post, whether conditional election or unconditional election is true, the ultimate result is the same. I just don't think that Arminians should be so quick to label John Calvin as a heretic, when Martin Luther, the original founder of the Reformation, taught many of the same things.
 
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fhansen

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This is Martin Luther on the extent of the atonement:



As I said in my original post, whether conditional election or unconditional election is true, the ultimate result is the same. I just don't think that Arminians should be so quick to label John Calvin as a heretic, when Martin Luther, the original founder of the Reformation, taught many of the same things.
Sometimes it seems Luther is harder to pin down on some of this stuff, depending on the commentary. Anyway, Lutheranism teaches that grace is resistible- I think.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Sometimes it seems Luther is harder to pin down on some of this stuff, depending on the commentary. Anyway, Lutheranism teaches that grace is resistible- I think.

I would like to read The Bondage of the Will soon, to see what Luther really taught on these matters.
 
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fhansen

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At the end of the day though maybe it doesn't make a huge amount of difference because I think that, whether we believe that God causes the elect to will rightly, or whether we believe that God integrates the will of the person somehow in His election, all believers would generally still be concerned about their eternal destiny if they were to find themselves living in a manner which is outrightly opposed to the will of God.
 
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How would one interpret the above passages of scripture in light of other passages which suggest that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect?
His atonement only applies to those who put their faith in Him. That doesn't mean He didn't die for everyone else to give them the opportunity as well.

Look at this verse:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Christ sacrificed Himself for all people. And all people must choose whether to accept or reject/deny Him. The false prophets and false teachers Peter referenced here denied Him even though He paid the price for (bought) them.

So, how was it that they denied Him? Was it because they couldn't accept Him since they weren't chosen? Or did they choose not to accept Him? Does it make sense for it to talk about them "bringing swift destruction on themselves" for rejecting Christ if they had no choice in the matter? No, right?

According to Calvinists, passages of scripture which refer to the call of salvation as applying to all people really mean all kinds of people, meaning that the elect will be called from among all races, nations, social classes, etc.
I couldn't disagree more. The context doesn't support that. For example, look at this passage:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Is this saying that God just commands the elect from all races, nations, social classes to repent? Or does He command literally "all people everywhere" to repent? Notice that it also says He has set a day when He will judge the world. That's clearly referring to the whole world, right? And it says He has given proof of this to everyone by raising "the man He has appointed" (Jesus, obviously) from the dead. That's referring to literally everyone, right? So, the context demands that "all people everywhere" refers to literally all people. And He doesn't command anyone to repent who is not able to do so.
 
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