Help with Romans 9:1-5

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Clare73 said:
I hold the doctrines of the NT.

What is amillennialism?

When you stated

There is no temporal age to come after the Church.
The next age is eternity, in the new heavens and the new earth, the home of righteousness.

that implies you believe there will not be a millennial/1000 year reign of Christ in the current earth, before the new heaven and new earth comes in Rev 21.

2BeholdHisGlory · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
From Abraham, all who have come to faith are considered His descendants.

At the same time He had descendants of the flesh.

I hear what you are saying, I am trying to nail this down better by asking questions, but how do you know if a Jew is lying about being a Jew?

For example,

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

If someone said to you that they were a Jew (in Israel) you met them and believed them, how would you know whether they were telling the truth?

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
Oh, so you also believe we are currently living in the millennium now?

No. What I do not believe is that your "70th week of Daniel" interpretation of Matthew 24 & 25
can be superimposed on Romans 11:30, 31. Still don't.
Romans 11:
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
No. What I do not believe is that your "70th week of Daniel" interpretation of Matthew 24 & 25
can be superimposed on Romans 11:30, 31. Still don't.
Romans 11:
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

I didn't link my explanation of Matthew 25:31-46 specifically to Romans 11:30-31, but once you understand how to rightly divide the word of Truth, that passage can be understood properly.

Thru the fall of Israel, we are now given the opportunity to be saved (Romans 11:11), that is what vs 30 is repeating.

But Paul reminds us that that the nation of Israel has not been abandoned, because of God's unique relationship to their physical fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Romans 11:28-29)

Thus, vs 31 is saying that because God has shown us gentiles mercy in this current age of grace, likewise, thru that same mercy, God will extend it to Israel in the age to come.

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
Thus, vs 31 is saying that because God has shown us gentiles mercy in this current age of grace, likewise, thru that same mercy, God will extend it to Israel in the age to come.

I get it that is what you are saying. I do not see that as what Paul is saying at all.

Guojing said:
I didn't link my explanation of Matthew 25:31-46 specifically to Romans 11:30-31, but once you understand how to rightly divide the word of Truth, that passage can be understood properly.

That is exactly what you did in post #20.
I will pass for now on your explanation of how to rightly divide the word of Truth.

Guojing said:
But Paul reminds us that that the nation of Israel has not been abandoned, because of God's unique relationship to their physical fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Romans 11:28-29)

Yep. Which is why is also states:
Romans 11:
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember:
you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.
Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity;
but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Which is why he goes on to say that Gentiles must show mercy to natural Israel.
Romans 15:
25 But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints.
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution
for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been
partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things.

Just as he instructed the Corinthians in his second epistle chapters 8 & 9 pertaining to preparing an
offering to be brought to Jerusalem for the saints there, who were under persecution at that time.
And yet you managed to drive the discussion to your interpretation of Matthew 24 and 25, the 70th
week of Daniel, which is well off topic. Your position that Jews have no special status has been made
clear. And yet, in Romans 9-11, Paul is diligent to let Gentiles know that his kinsman will always be
beloved because of the Patriarchs. That is on topic.

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Your position that Jews have no special status has been made
clear. And yet, in Romans 9-11, Paul is diligent to let Gentiles know that his kinsman will always be
beloved because of the Patriarchs. That is on topic.

Yes, but that applies to the age to come. Israel will be God's favored nation once again during the time of Jacob's trouble, because of God's special relationship to their physical ancestors.

I believe you are claiming that even in the current but now period, Israel is now still God's favored nation?

Am I correct in concluding that?

Mr. M · May 16, 2021

Guojing said:
I believe you are claiming that even in the current but now period, Israel is now still God's favored nation?
Am I correct in concluding that?

No, you are not. Paul is instructing the Gentiles to maintain merciful kindness toward natural
Israel, even as they are left in unbelief for the sake of the Gospel. You are making this complicated.
Christians are expected to be instruments of God's mercy, beginning with the saints that were in Jerusalem at the time the Gospel was being preached to them.

Guojing · May 16, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
No, you are not. Paul is instructing the Gentiles to maintain merciful kindness toward natural
Israel, even as they are left in unbelief for the sake of the Gospel. You are making this complicated.
Christians are expected to be instruments of God's mercy, beginning with the saints that were in Jerusalem at the time the Gospel was being preached to them.

I agree we are expected to be instruments of God's mercy.

But Israel has no special status in the eyes of God now, they are as uncircumcised as any nation (Acts 7:51).

I am curious whether you still regard "natural Israel" as having some special status. Do you?

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I hear what you are saying, I am trying to nail this down better by asking questions, but how do you know if a Jew is lying about being a Jew?

For example,

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

If someone said to you that they were a Jew (in Israel) you met them and believed them, how would you know whether they were telling the truth?

In the same way we are told there will be wheat and tares in the church, folks make false claims about their identity for whatever reason.

However with Jewishness a DNA test does help to confirm, along with family records.

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

Guojing said:
Do you agree with what I said in that previous thread about the difference between Abraham's descendants between the stars of heaven and sand in the shore?

They are in line with what you are saying above.

I have no opinion on this...

Guojing · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I have no opinion on this...

So when you said

From Abraham, all who have come to faith are considered His descendants.

At the same time He had descendants of the flesh.

You are lumping them both together in the same group?

Mr. M · May 16, 2021

Guojing said:
I agree we are expected to be instruments of God's mercy.

But Israel has no special status in the eyes of God now, they are as uncircumcised as any nation (Acts 7:51).

I am curious whether you still regard "natural Israel" as having some special status. Do you?

Asked and answered. My concern is for the people. I was never discussing the political nation in regard
to prophecy.

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

Guojing said:
So when you said

You are lumping them both together in the same group?

No...

2BeholdHisGlory · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
In the same way we are told there will be wheat and tares in the church, folks make false claims about their identity for whatever reason.

However with Jewishness a DNA test does help to confirm, along with family records.

Okay, so you agree that there are fake Jews. In both places in Revelevation it speaks of these in relation to the synagogue which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Is it possible to push an agenda forward in the name of "Christians for Jews" but them not really being so, but rather the same be the synagogue of Satan?

Since, they cannot be anti christ (if I am understanding you correctly, from what I have read) that they cannot be considered anti christ (unless you dont believe that).

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Is it possible to push an agenda forward in the name of "Christians for Jews" but them not really being so, but rather the same be the synagogue of Satan?

Since, they cannot be anti christ (if I am understanding you correctly, from what I have read) that they cannot be considered anti christ (unless you dont believe that).

Regarding you first question, I think this is possible. However on the ground in Israel I have seen much good will towards the church from Jewish leadership.

Regarding your second point, The use of the term anti-Christ needs to be made carefully. This is because there is a Spirit of anti-Christ abroad which drives the unsaved world. There is also a particular appointing of a unique end times figure along with the False prophet and the Beast.

Contemporary Jews may be more anti-Christ in view of the way much (not all) of the church failed to assist then during the Holocaust. Just wear a cross among Jews and you will feel this very quickly.

There is a similar anti-Christ sentiment among peoples colonized by the west who were subject to the pillaging of land, and the church did little to address the injustice... In both cases however such injustices should never be a reason to reject Christ as the injustice He experienced eclipsed any historical injustice we can refer to.

2BeholdHisGlory · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Regarding you first question, I think this is possible. However on the ground in Israel I have seen much good will towards the church from Jewish leadership.

Regarding your second point, The use of the term anti-Christ needs to be made carefully. This is because there is a Spirit of anti-Christ abroad which drives the unsaved world. There is also a particular appointing of a unique end times figure along with the False prophet and the Beast.

Contemporary Jews may be more anti-Christ in view of the way much (not all) of the church failed to assist then during the Holocaust. Just wear a cross among Jews and you will feel this very quickly.

There is a similar anti-Christ sentiment among peoples colonized by the west who were subject to the pillaging of land, and the church did little to address the injustice... In both cases however such injustices should never be a reason to reject Christ as the injustice He experienced eclipsed any historical injustice we can refer to.

Okay, so you agree its possible.

Do you agree with how John speaks of how to determine antichrist?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Or did he make these determinations (for the church) carelessly?

Because he speaks of every spirit equally there without exception.

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Okay, so you agree its possible.

Do you agree with how John speaks of how to determine antichrist?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Or did he make these determinations (for the church) carelessly?

Because he speaks of every spirit equally there without exception.

Like I said - the anti-Christ spirit drives the unsaved world.
The question that seems to be needing attention is whether there is a case for claiming that this is worse in Israel than elsewhere. Personally I think not...
Israel allows churches to freely operate. Many countries do not.

2BeholdHisGlory · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Like I said - the anti-Christ spirit drives the unsaved world.
The question that seems to be needing attention is whether there is a case for claiming that this is worse in Israel than elsewhere. Personally I think not...
Israel allows churches to freely operate. Many countries do not.

Why didnt John include that question and make an exception to his statement though?

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Why didnt John include that question and make an exception to his statement though?

What point are you trying to make?

I have no issue with the scriptures you raise...

Guojing · May 16, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Asked and answered. My concern is for the people. I was never discussing the political nation in regard
to prophecy.

Okay, you have a special fondness for the people of Israel and want to help them as much as you can.

I can respect that belief.

Help with Romans 9:1-5

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