20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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sovereigngrace

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Now who is foisting ethics onto people and into God's Word? Sin was eradicated before Satan was placed in the pit. This alledged sin is because they were decieved. They were not decieved, nor carrying out sinful acts, 5 seconds before Satan was released. You are making all that up yourself. God's Word claims sin was eradicated. You claim sin is eradicated at the Second Coming. Then you change God's Word to claim there are more people alive today than the sands of the sea, unable to be counted. You claim Satan is not decieving the nations now. You do not know when he will start. You claim there is no sin now, but sin is very much rampant, even though you claim Satan is not even decieving the Nations now, that cannot be counted, even though most nations currently know how many people they have. In fact they are trying to decrease population, not increase it. No nations have plans to march your billions of unregenerates, and there may even be believers in such armies, who will be consumed by fire. Do their souls go to heaven, or did they loose that privilege because the government forced them to serve in the military?


It is not my paradigm. It is God's Word, Revelation 20. Comes right after Revelation 19. No human opinion necessary to mix up and change around the words that John wrote down for us to read.

Again, no Scripture. Just false claims and avoidance. You have invented a picture which you cannot support.

When have I said "there is no sin now"?

When did i "change God's Word to claim there are more people alive today than the sands of the sea, unable to be counted"?
 
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Timtofly

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Again, no Scripture. Just false claims and avoidance. You have invented a picture which you cannot support.

When have I said "there is no sin now"?

When did i "change God's Word to claim there are more people alive today than the sands of the sea, unable to be counted"?
You claim this happens at the end. The end of what? You really think this earth will overpopulate within 1000 years on it's own full of sin?

Where is your Scripture showing that sin exist after the Second Coming, when it is eradicated?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You claim this happens at the end. The end of what? You really think this earth will overpopulate within 1000 years on it's own full of sin?

Where is your Scripture showing that sin exist after the Second Coming, when it is eradicated?

I have showed you it many times. There are billions living today who are sinning. Before the end of time/world the wicked will surround the saints and persecution will be ratcheted up.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I am in a rather serious bible study group on eschatology and we are considering most if not all views. However, one thing I can say its premillenialism does not hinge on Revelation 20 that I can see. What makes you think it does?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I am in a rather serious bible study group on eschatology and we are considering most if not all views. However, one thing I can say its premillenialism does not hinge on Revelation 20 that I can see. What makes you think it does?
What that means is that it hinges on the assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19. The only other scriptural support that people attempt to give for premillennialism is all from the Old Testament. If premil was true then why would Revelation 19-20 be the only place in New Testament scripture where it is taught?

In the rest of the New Testament we see descriptions of complete destruction occurring at His second coming (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Peter 3:3-13, Rev 19:18) which doesn't allow for mortal survivors to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

Also, we see descriptions of a single judgment day repeatedly in New Testament scripture rather than multiple judgment days (Acts 17:30-31, Matthew 25:31-46, Matt 10:15, Matt 11:22-24, Matt 12:36, Matt 13:36-43, 47-50, 2 Peter 2:9, 2 Peter 3:7, 1 John 4:17, Jude 1:6).

And we see descriptions of a single resurrection event or day of all of the dead rather than multiple resurrection days (John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15).

Also, scripture indicates that the resurrection of believers and judgment of unbelievers both will happen on "the last day" (John 6:39-44,54; John 12:48).
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am in a rather serious bible study group on eschatology and we are considering most if not all views. However, one thing I can say its premillenialism does not hinge on Revelation 20 that I can see. What makes you think it does?

So, can you show me where the OT prophets, Jesus, Paul or the NT writers taught some literal 1000 years full of more-of-the-same after the second coming outside of Revelation 20? I say this as a former Premil. I could not find this anywhere else in Scripture.

For example, can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two resurrection days separated by 1000 literal years? Can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two judgment days separated by 1000 literal years?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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So, can you show me where the OT prophets, Jesus, Paul or the NT writers taught some literal 1000 years full of more-of-the-same after the second coming outside of Revelation 20? I say this as a former Premil. I could not find this anywhere else in Scripture.

For example, can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two resurrection days separated by 1000 literal years? Can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two judgment days separated by 1000 literal years?

Our study of eschatology is in the very early phases, but there is significant eschatological Scripture in the book of Daniel, the Epistles of the Apostle Paul (Thessalonians, etc.), the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 23-24, and associated parallels in Mark and Luke) as well as other Epistles of the Apostle John (1 John) and other chapters of Revelation beyond Revelation chapter 20 all refer to prophecy that many (but not all) Christians consider applicable to the future and not all fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem under Nero in AD 70.

Once I get further along in our study (which we are going at the rate of about 8 verses (not chapters) per week, I'll let you know what we find.

Anything I'd say now would be premature. We are using two useful books plus a commentary I've always used by Dallas Theological Seminary called the "Bible Knowledge Commentary." The two books specific on Revelation we are using include "4 Views on Revelation" by C. Marvin Pate, Stanley N. Gundry, Kenneth L. Gentry Jr., Sam Hamstra Jr., Robert L. Thomas, et al and "Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary, Revised and Updated Edition" by Steve Gregg.
 
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Timtofly

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I have showed you it many times. There are billions living today who are sinning. Before the end of time/world the wicked will surround the saints and persecution will be ratcheted up.
That is not even close to what Revelation 20 claims. Try again.
 
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Timtofly

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What that means is that it hinges on the assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19. The only other scriptural support that people attempt to give for premillennialism is all from the Old Testament. If premil was true then why would Revelation 19-20 be the only place in New Testament scripture where it is taught?
Why does John not teach a rapture, like Paul? Paul covers the Second Coming from the church's perspective. John in Revelation is coming from a tribulation of Jacob's trouble perspective. Revelation 8-20 is not even for the church. Paul's two Second Coming narratives are not even for Jacob's trouble. They are for the church. Each writer is coming from a different perspective. No writer covers the whole event from all points of view.
 
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Timtofly

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So, can you show me where the OT prophets, Jesus, Paul or the NT writers taught some literal 1000 years full of more-of-the-same after the second coming outside of Revelation 20? I say this as a former Premil. I could not find this anywhere else in Scripture.

For example, can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two resurrection days separated by 1000 literal years? Can you give me one single Scripture to support the theory of Rev 20 of two judgment days separated by 1000 literal years?
Daniel 12:1-8

“When that time comes, Mikha’el, the great prince who champions your people, will stand up; and there will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and that moment. At that time, your people will be delivered, everyone whose name is found written in the book. Many of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence. But those who can discern will shine like the brightness of heaven’s dome, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever."

“But you, Dani’el, keep these words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rush here and there as knowledge increases.”

"Then I, Dani’el, looked; and I saw in front of me two others, one on this bank of the river and the other on its other bank. One of them asked the man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river, “How long will these wonders last?” The man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river raised his right and left hands toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times and a half, and that it will be when the the power of the holy people is no longer being shattered that all these things will end."

This is a 3500 year period. The half of time covered the 69 weeks of Daniel 9. It was about 500 years from Daniel to Christ. The times is the 1991 years since the Cross. There is still 1000 years for all to be complete, and Death is the last enemy to be conquered. Those consumed by fire in Revelation 20 are the last humans who chose death, instead of life. Then Death is cast into the lake of fire at the GWT.

The earth is not going to keep getting better for the next 1000 years. The Second Coming will happen very soon and Christ will reign on earth those last set of years known as time.

Exodus 20 and the 4th Commandment. It is a prophecy containing Adam's punishment and the end of it. 6 days shalt thou labor, but the 7th Day is the Lord's Day.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Our study of eschatology is in the very early phases, but there is significant eschatological Scripture in the book of Daniel, the Epistles of the Apostle Paul (Thessalonians, etc.), the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 23-24, and associated parallels in Mark and Luke) as well as other Epistles of the Apostle John (1 John) and other chapters of Revelation beyond Revelation chapter 20 all refer to prophecy that many (but not all) Christians consider applicable to the future and not all fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem under Nero in AD 70.

Once I get further along in our study (which we are going at the rate of about 8 verses (not chapters) per week, I'll let you know what we find.

Anything I'd say now would be premature. We are using two useful books plus a commentary I've always used by Dallas Theological Seminary called the "Bible Knowledge Commentary." The two books specific on Revelation we are using include "4 Views on Revelation" by C. Marvin Pate, Stanley N. Gundry, Kenneth L. Gentry Jr., Sam Hamstra Jr., Robert L. Thomas, et al and "Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary, Revised and Updated Edition" by Steve Gregg.

Understand. I have read this book. It gives a good perspective.

The main downfall of Premil (in my opinion) is the lack of corroboration. What is forced on Revelation 20 is not supported anywhere else in Scripture. I would be happy to go through each main tenet of Premil at some stage.

The strength of Amil is the fact that multiple Scriptures teaches a final climactic return of Christ and the introduction of eternal perfection, not another age of the same-old same-old.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Understand. I have read this book. It gives a good perspective.

The main downfall of Premil (in my opinion) is the lack of corroboration. What is forced on Revelation 20 is not supported anywhere else in Scripture. I would be happy to go through each main tenet of Premil at some stage.

The strength of Amil is the fact that multiple Scriptures teaches a final climactic return of Christ and the introduction of eternal perfection, not another age of the same-old same-old.
I would be definitely interested as a student of eschatology to consider your point for point thoughts, either here, by PM, or I can share my email address by PM.

Jeff
 
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TribulationSigns

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The dead saints from Adam until now, have to wait until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Excepting the GT martyrs, who will be raised back to mortal life by Jesus at His Return.
The living people of God, who mostly will be those kept in a place of safety during the 1260 days of the GT, will be gathered to Jerusalem, as Matthew 4:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:17 tell us.

Ahem!
 
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sovereigngrace

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I would be definitely interested as a student of eschatology to consider your point for point thoughts, either here, by PM, or I can share my email address by PM.

Jeff

That would be great. I have studied this in depth from 2000. I started writing a book to support Premil that year and ended up changing my position after 6 months to Amil because of the amount of climactic Scripture I encountered. I am happy to engage here or privately by email.
 
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ShineyDays2

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Anything I'd say now would be premature. We are using two useful books plus a commentary I've always used by Dallas Theological Seminary called the "Bible Knowledge Commentary." The two books specific on Revelation we are using include "4 Views on Revelation" by C. Marvin Pate, Stanley N. Gundry, Kenneth L. Gentry Jr., Sam Hamstra Jr., Robert L. Thomas, et al and "Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary, Revised and Updated Edition" by Steve Gregg.

Jeff, The first thing that caught my eye was "Dallas Theological Seminary" and the authors of the books you are using for your studies.

To begin with I have one word for Dallas Theo. Sem. .... indoctrination! This seminary has a long history of being dedicated to promote the false doctrine of pre-mil/dispensationalism that that originated from Scotland and England in the early 1800's. John Nelson Darby is the one that is credited with vigorously promoting the "new" system and who brought it to the USA. That is when D.L. Moody, Ryrie, Chafter (Shafer?) started publishing the theory. Dallas Sem. openly admits to promoting this "false" doctrine and has been exceedingly successful at it. The original purpose was to make money by selling books that were published by D.L. Moody publishing company.

Do yourself the biggest favor by searching out "the origins of dispensationalism by Charles Nelson Darby. It is an eye opener.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jeff, The first thing that caught my eye was "Dallas Theological Seminary" and the authors of the books you are using for your studies.

To begin with I have one word for Dallas Theo. Sem. .... indoctrination! This seminary has a long history of being dedicated to promote the false doctrine of pre-mil/dispensationalism that that originated from Scotland and England in the early 1800's. John Nelson Darby is the one that is credited with vigorously promoting the "new" system and who brought it to the USA. That is when D.L. Moody, Ryrie, Chafter (Shafer?) started publishing the theory. Dallas Sem. openly admits to promoting this "false" doctrine and has been exceedingly successful at it. The original purpose was to make money by selling books that were published by D.L. Moody publishing company.

Do yourself the biggest favor by searching out "the origins of dispensationalism by Charles Nelson Darby. It is an eye opener.

The orgins are rooted in the Jesuits.
 
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ShineyDays2

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The orgins are rooted in the Jesuits.
Soverign...That is true but it was picked up by Darby and Darby was the biggest promoter. The Jesuit priest could be referred to as "the seed" whereas Darby is most known for being "the roots" as I understood from my research. Dallas could be "the blossom" that is still in full bloom.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Soverign...That is true but it was picked up by Darby and Darby was the biggest promoter. The Jesuit priest could be referred to as "the seed" whereas Darby is most known for being "the roots" as I understood from my research. Dallas could be "the blossom" that is still in full bloom.

Well put!
 
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