What do you think about the sacraments?

Anthony2019

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But is it really a common practice to deny communion to people who had not confessed to the pastor?
That's a really good question. Throughout my life in the church, I have never known a single occasion where the priest/minister has refused to administer the sacrament to anyone personally. I do know of one instance where a minister refused to conduct a service of Holy Communion because of the way certain members of the congregation were acting and behaving towards one another when they entered the church.
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's a really good question. Throughout my life in the church, I have never known a single occasion where the priest/minister has refused to administer the sacrament to anyone personally. I do know of one instance where a minister refused to conduct a service of Holy Communion because of the way certain members of the congregation were acting and behaving towards one another when they entered the church.

Sometimes a spiritual father has to put their foot down to unruly children.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Thanks to @HTacianas , @tampasteve , @Anthony2019 , @ViaCrucis , @Paidiske , @The Liturgist , and @MarkRohfrietsch for explaining the purpose of individual confession to a pastor.

All, more or less, agree with the statement "all may, some should, none must".

This is with the exception of @HTacianas who wrote, "it is a pre-requisite to the Eucharist." This may theoretically, and historically, be the case in EO, OO & RC churches. But is it really a common practice to deny communion to people who had not confessed to the pastor?
With respect, why do you insist on the selective reading of Scripture yet disregard the admonishments clearly stated regarding the reception in an unworthy manner? This draws the whole sacrament into question, and may be the root cause of those who defy the value and efficacy of the Eucharist.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Sometimes a spiritual father has to put their foot down to unruly children.

-CryptoLutheran
Speaking of "unruly children"; excommunication for the impenetent is not uncommon in many of our Churches.
 
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Albion

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My understanding is that the confession forgives the sin, but the penance and potential indulgence removes the temporal punishment part. Or perhaps I misunderstand, which is entirely possible.
I don't think that's right, steve, but I meant my comment as a small footnote only and am mindful of your earlier request that we not get into the weeds. ;)
 
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Valletta

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I am sure it happens, but I have never seen it personally. I would have to say it is denied very infrequently. In my RCC parish confessions were open a few hours every weekend, maybe 1-3% of the Mass attendees went ahead of time regularly (probably some made appointments too, but the numbers would be negligible). The RCC in my area only "required" it annually, but it is not like anyone was keeping record.
It's up to the individual, if you have grave sins you should confess them as soon as possible. Pope John Paul II received this important sacrament every day. How important? In the Bible Jesus BREATHED on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sin, harkening back to Genesis when God formed many out of dust and BREATHED on man and gave man life.
 
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Valletta

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That's a really good question. Throughout my life in the church, I have never known a single occasion where the priest/minister has refused to administer the sacrament to anyone personally. I do know of one instance where a minister refused to conduct a service of Holy Communion because of the way certain members of the congregation were acting and behaving towards one another when they entered the church.
Usually the priest would not know if a person had repented or not.
 
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Paidiske

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I am not sure what "penance" other priests offered, but the few I had gone to always prescribed acts of service or kindness as opposed to saying some number of prayers or what have you, which is the stereotypically thought of penance.

Generally speaking, I try to aim penance as a "putting right" of what was done wrong. So if, for example, the penitent had stolen, penance might include the return of the stolen goods. Of course it is seldom that straightforward. But it is about demonstrating a willingness to do differently than whatever it was that one came to confess.

But is it really a common practice to deny communion to people who had not confessed to the pastor?

All I can add to this is the observation of a Catholic colleague of mine, that there were not enough hours in the week to hear the confessions of all the folk who received communion from him. There simply is not the clergy manpower (so to speak) to sustain that level of confessional practice.

As far as I am aware, the Anglican churches in some Australian provinces are the only churches in the world where the Seal of Confession is not ostensibly inviolable...

So the Australian Anglican case is alright insofar it is the willing decision of the church. That said, I would argue it does defeat the purpose of the sacrament of reconciliation, and it has generally been acceptable for a confessor to demand a penitent turn themselves into the police before receiving absolution. But it is a complex area and Australia is reeling from high profile sex abuse scandals, so I am not well equipped to comment on it other than to say their current policy is probably in their best interest for the time being.

You may be right that we are the only place, I am not well enough informed on international canon law to comment.

I do not believe that it defeats the purpose of the sacrament, personally. Where the problem comes in is not so much when the penitent is the perpetrator, where, as you rightly note, reporting can be mandated before receiving absolution. The more difficult problem is when the penitent discloses that they have been the victim of abuse. This is more common than you might think, since many victims carry heavy burdens of (misplaced) guilt. What I am observing in my pastoral practice is that victims are now avoiding disclosing, because they know that mandatory reporting means they will not be able to make decisions about the speed and circumstances of official processes in response, and they wish to avoid the trauma of legal investigations etc. This has denied those victims appropriate pastoral care which could help them approach reporting over time. But that is a problem with mandatory reporting in general and not simply in the context of confession.

My own sense is that this change in canon law will make not one iota of difference in the actual practice of reconciliation. But what it has done is said to the wider community, "We will not cover up child sexual abuse. There is no dark corner, no cloak of confidentiality, no carpet under which we will sweep this. We will do all that we can to keep children safe." And in the social context in which we are operating - where the general public, in many cases, see us as an institutionalised paedophile ring in archaic drag - that is a very important stance to take.

I do know of one instance where a minister refused to conduct a service of Holy Communion because of the way certain members of the congregation were acting and behaving towards one another when they entered the church.

I did that once. Told them they were in no fit place to come to the table. To their credit, they rose to the challenge and attempted to reconcile.
 
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Andrewn

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The spiritual practice of the Russian Orthodox Church is to use the sacrament of reconciliation frequently; the rule at most in the Western US seems to be to reconcile at a minimum within four weeks of each partaking of the Eucharist.

With respect, why do you insist on the selective reading of Scripture yet disregard the admonishments clearly stated regarding the reception in an unworthy manner? This draws the whole sacrament into question, and may be the root cause of those who defy the value and efficacy of the Eucharist.
I'm reading a Catholic book, which says, "Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and to go to confession at least once a year."

Then it goes on to say, "If we ever commit a mortal sin, we should go to confession as soon as possible, but for venial sins, it's a good practice to go at least once a month, even if it's not obligatory."

Do you go to confession once a month?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm reading a Catholic book, which says, "Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and to go to confession at least once a year."

Then it goes on to say, "If we ever commit a mortal sin, we should go to confession as soon as possible, but for venial sins, it's a good practice to go at least once a month, even if it's not obligatory."

Do you go to confession once a month?
In this case, my reply was not regarding Confession and frequency of private confession, but rather open vs. closed communion. Regarding myself, very frequently, but not always in a formal liturgical way (which may include he and I sitting down over a couple beers).
 
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Generally speaking, I try to aim penance as a "putting right" of what was done wrong. So if, for example, the penitent had stolen, penance might include the return of the stolen goods. Of course it is seldom that straightforward. But it is about demonstrating a willingness to do differently than whatever it was that one came to confess.

I expect an Orthodox priest would deal with shoplifting in a similiar way, although they might not require it be done in the precise way you outlined because what you’re asking the penitent to do is incriminate themselves. In the US, a shoplifting conviction can have extremely adverse consequences for employability; people convicted of shoplifting generally can’t work in retail.

For other things of a more subtle nature, they probably wouldn’t.

All I can add to this is the observation of a Catholic colleague of mine, that there were not enough hours in the week to hear the confessions of all the folk who received communion from him. There simply is not the clergy manpower (so to speak) to sustain that level of confessional practice.

The confessions people make at All Night Vigils and during the Third and Sixth hours before the Divine Liturgy in the Slavonic churches, and similiar practices in the Romanian church (except Romanians like to do just Vespers at night, and Matins in the morning), tend to be extremely brief compared to Roman Catholic confessions. Also, high frequency confession means there is less to confess. A ROCOR Archimandrite, whose command of English was passable but not good enough to hear confessions, had people who could not speak Russian (or I suppose Church Slavonic) read a laminated sheet of paper in which they accused themselves of basically all sins. This may seem baffling at first, but when we consider the words of our Lord, that all sins are equal before God, and that merely fantasizing about a sin such as adultery amounts to committing it, and when we consider the hamartiological concept that slamder is a form of murder, this makes sense.

Orthodox Christians, including the bishops and the priests confess a pre communion prayer in which they state they are the worst of sinners. Bishops and priests go a step beyond that by begging the forgiveness of the congregation.

The only case I know of where resources did not exist in the Russian Orthodox Church for everyone to confess and then receive communion was the parish of St. John of Kronstadt, where the attendees at each liturgy were usually dominated by a mix of pilgrims and sailors in the Imperial Navy, although there were regular parishioners; St. John was trying to break the habit of people taking communion and confessing once a year, which he correctly saw as unorthodox and an import from some of the problematic aspects of the Western Church (both parts of the church likewise had a sacramental problem in the first millennium involving baptism delayed in extremis and excessively severe penances, and rigorists like Tertulliam who believed post-baptismal sin was inherently damnatory). So St. John had the people about their sins at the top of their lungs before the liturgy, maintaining privacy through high volume unintelligibility.

The average Slavonic Orthodox Church tends to want monthly confession unless something comes up that the parishioner feels requires a special confession. In addition to hearing confessions at All Night Vigils and at the Hours before the Divine Liturgy, priests will also hear them by appointment, and I believe that an unwritten rule derived from common courtesy of not holding up the line or delaying the service is that someone with an extended confession should make an appointment.

I think also the lack of penances in most cases reduces the time, since the priest just absolves the penitent without having to determine an appropriate penance.

You may be right that we are the only place, I am not well enough informed on international canon law to comment.

I do not believe that it defeats the purpose of the sacrament, personally. Where the problem comes in is not so much when the penitent is the perpetrator, where, as you rightly note, reporting can be mandated before receiving absolution. The more difficult problem is when the penitent discloses that they have been the victim of abuse. This is more common than you might think, since many victims carry heavy burdens of (misplaced) guilt. What I am observing in my pastoral practice is that victims are now avoiding disclosing, because they know that mandatory reporting means they will not be able to make decisions about the speed and circumstances of official processes in response, and they wish to avoid the trauma of legal investigations etc. This has denied those victims appropriate pastoral care which could help them approach reporting over time. But that is a problem with mandatory reporting in general and not simply in the context of confession.

My own sense is that this change in canon law will make not one iota of difference in the actual practice of reconciliation. But what it has done is said to the wider community, "We will not cover up child sexual abuse. There is no dark corner, no cloak of confidentiality, no carpet under which we will sweep this. We will do all that we can to keep children safe." And in the social context in which we are operating - where the general public, in many cases, see us as an institutionalised paedophile ring in archaic drag - that is a very important stance to take.

I am not familiar with Anglican canon law. The only work of canon law I have studied other than boring UCC related texts is the Rudder, an English translation of the Eastern Orthodox canon law compiled around 1745 by St. Nicodemus the Athonite, who was also one of the two compilers of the brilliant anthology on hesychasm, the Philokalia. This is useful as it contains most of the ancient canon laws of the early church, including the Apostolic Canons, the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils and various regional synods, and the canons of Patristic figures. The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Church of the East, never changed their canon law in the sense of repealing older canons, although newer canons were added, but mostly, the canon law is static. And if you read the canon law, it is remarkable how relevant it is, especially if you understand the cultural context behind some of the canons which otherwise seem odious from a modern perspective.

I would say it is likely that paedophiles will confess where the sacramental seal is still intact. I understand the PR motivation for the Anglican church doing what it did, but I disagree with it.

I did that once. Told them they were in no fit place to come to the table. To their credit, they rose to the challenge and attempted to reconcile.

Indeed, it has always been the prerogative of Anglican priests to repel notorious evil livers from the sacrament. I have heard that Roman Catholic priests are no longer allowed to do this.

I myself would repel from the sacrament anyone who performs non-medically necessary abortions, profits from strip clubs, inappropriate contentography or prostitution (e.g. pimps and website owners, who exploit and sexually traffic women), unrepentant adulterers, homosexuals and womanizers, government officials whose actions are detrimental to religious freedom or the traditional Judeo-Christian values of the United States and the Congregational Church in the period 1770-1920, and people who spread false rumors about other members in the church. But we project a conservative image so I expect the only likely case of someone being refused communion would be spreading false rumors about other members of the church.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm reading a Catholic book, which says, "Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and to go to confession at least once a year."

Then it goes on to say, "If we ever commit a mortal sin, we should go to confession as soon as possible, but for venial sins, it's a good practice to go at least once a month, even if it's not obligatory."

Do you go to confession once a month?

I do, yes.
 
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CleanSoul

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People will say that it's the rings, but they are not essential to the sacrament

The matter in matrimony is the consent of each individual, their desire to be one, and the consummation.

confession doesn't meet the definition of a sacrament--no physical properties, no explicit commission by Christ,

In confession, the matter is the actual sin, contrition, and the confession of said sin(s).

no explicit commission by Christ,

John 20:21: Jesus said to them again, peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.(Bold mine)

Why did God send His Son? So our sins may be forgiven. The timeline in these verses is when? I believe it is the first time He met with the disciples, after walking out of the tomb, after dying so that our sins can be forgiven.

John 20:22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23: Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain, are retained."

This is how powerful, important, and oftentimes necessary confession is. This is the second time, (out of two, of course) in the Bible when it is recorded that God breathed on man.

This was done not long before Jesus ascended to heaven. Jesus knew that people were still going to sin, and Jesus gave this authority to the apostles as part of the church He created, which is the body of Christ, of which He is the head.
 
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Andrewn

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Which one?
Consoling the Heart of Jesus, by Michael E. Gaitley, MIC.

I have a problem with some beliefs regarding the Virgin Mary, even though I have high regard for her. But it is generally a fantastic book that I definitely recommend.
 
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Something of importance, at least in regard to Lutheranism, is that our definition of a Sacrament is based on certain, somewhat strict criteria:

1. We take our definition of a Sacrament from St. Augustine of Hippo, "The word is added to the element, and there results the Sacrament, as if itself also a kind of visible word" (St. Augustine, Tractates on the Gospel of John, 80.3); and therefore define a Sacrament as God's word connected to "the element", that is something material, in context Augustine is speaking of Holy Baptism, as God's word connected to the water, thus making Baptism a Sacrament, and thus efficacious in doing what God has purposed it to do.

2. To this we also include this definition, that a Sacrament is "an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace"; and therefore for something to be a Sacrament it must meet these criteria: a) And outward sign, b) instituted by Christ, and c) to give grace. If it does not meet this definition, it cannot be called a Sacrament.

3. It must be for the whole Church.

These are the reasons why Lutherans historically limit the number of Sacraments to two or three. Namely Holy Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Confession and Absolution.

Of the remaining four of the western seven Sacraments: Holy Orders, Holy Unction, Holy Matrimony, and Holy Confirmation:

1. Holy Orders - While the Office of the Keys was indeed truly instituted by Jesus Christ for His Church, the ordination of specific officers through which the exercise of the Keys is to occur is not instituted by Jesus Christ for all in the Church. Thus while the ordained has been conferred by the Church the office of exercising the Keys, and through this there is grace for the whole Church; it does not rise to meet the criteria of being a Sacrament in the proper sense.

2. Holy Unction - Christ did not institute Holy Unction, but the anointing of the sick is nevertheless part of the Church's purpose in the world, and through those called to anoint and pray for the sick we do, indeed, believe in God's activity and power to make well. As such, the sacramental character of Holy Unction is not rejected--but rather it simply does not meet the criteria of being a Sacrament.

3. Holy Matrimony - Christ did not institute Holy Matrimony, but nevertheless we should not deny the sacramental character of the institution of marriage; that through the giving of one another to each other in the bonds of Holy Matrimony there is nevertheless still a sacred pledge and a mystery of faith that bears witness to God's grace. Not all are married, not all will be married. So Holy Matrimony is indeed a holy thing, it does not meet the criteria of being a Sacrament.

4. Holy Confirmation - This is more complicated, in large part because the Western Rite of Confirmation had become a considerably different thing than the historical Christian practice of Chrismation, which--even today still in the East--is fundamentally and inseparably connected to Holy Baptism. Confirmation was retained by Lutherans not as a Sacrament, but as a "Churchly Rite", which has been beneficial for thousands of Christians; and should not therefore be done away with.

To add my own position to the above: I believe that historic Chrismation should be done in the Church; namely the anointing of oil for the baptized, as the sacramental seal of the Holy Spirit upon the Baptized. This is, in fact, done in many Lutheran churches (at least every one I've witnessed a Baptism in). Whether Chrismation should be counted separately from Baptism is, I think, a worthwhile discussion to have. I would, at least tentatively, describe it as part of the Rite of Baptism.

Of the four not regarded as Sacraments in Lutheranism, I think the two that come closest to being Sacraments are Holy Orders (in the exercising of the Keys as means of grace for the Church); and Holy Chrismation as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit upon the baptized. Though even here I would probably describe Chrismation more as a sacramental seal, rather than a Sacrament; and as something that should simply be part of the ordinary Baptismal Rite. But, I wanted to be clear that in these last two paragraphs I am not trying to provide "official Lutheran" teaching; but rather expressing merely my own thoughts and opinions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Valletta

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I'm reading a Catholic book, which says, "Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and to go to confession at least once a year."

Then it goes on to say, "If we ever commit a mortal sin, we should go to confession as soon as possible, but for venial sins, it's a good practice to go at least once a month, even if it's not obligatory."

Do you go to confession once a month?
If you were not committing mortal sins technically you could go without the sacrament of reconciliation for your entire life. But the book is right about the practice of once a month for most Catholics.
 
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Valletta

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I'm reading a Catholic book, which says, "Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and to go to confession at least once a year."

Then it goes on to say, "If we ever commit a mortal sin, we should go to confession as soon as possible, but for venial sins, it's a good practice to go at least once a month, even if it's not obligatory."

Do you go to confession once a month?
By the way, it is standard practice at each Catholic Sunday mass for the people to ask God to forgive their sins.
 
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Paidiske

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I would say it is likely that paedophiles will confess where the sacramental seal is still intact.

In that case, I think you have misunderstood the situation regarding how such confessions are handled (they will not be absolved without reporting, even in the Catholic church). There is, at least in principle, no way for a paedophile to confess and be absolved that does not involve their crime being reported, even where the seal is considered inviolable.

I understand the PR motivation for the Anglican church doing what it did, but I disagree with it.

Why? If there is no difference in outcome, why oppose it? (By the way, I find reducing this matter to "PR" to be very dismissive of the grave injury and evil we are discussing).

Indeed, it has always been the prerogative of Anglican priests to repel notorious evil livers from the sacrament.

Not exactly. If I were to wish to deny communion to a specific individual for their behaviour, I would first need to seek the agreement of my bishop. I would not seek such agreement lightly, and I myself have never done so for someone in my pastoral care (although I have witnessed situations in which I think such agreement should have been sought).

But the situation I referred to above was one in which, immediately before communion, members of the congregation had been insulting one another with words which would trip the profanity filter on CF. I could say to them collectively that this was not an appropriate way to approach the table of our Lord, and that they had some work to do before the service could proceed.
 
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In that case, I think you have misunderstood the situation regarding how such confessions are handled (they will not be absolved without reporting, even in the Catholic church). There is, at least in principle, no way for a paedophile to confess and be absolved that does not involve their crime being reported, even where the seal is considered inviolable.



Why? If there is no difference in outcome, why oppose it? (By the way, I find reducing this matter to "PR" to be very dismissive of the grave injury and evil we are discussing).



Not exactly. If I were to wish to deny communion to a specific individual for their behaviour, I would first need to seek the agreement of my bishop. I would not seek such agreement lightly, and I myself have never done so for someone in my pastoral care (although I have witnessed situations in which I think such agreement should have been sought).

But the situation I referred to above was one in which, immediately before communion, members of the congregation had been insulting one another with words which would trip the profanity filter on CF. I could say to them collectively that this was not an appropriate way to approach the table of our Lord, and that they had some work to do before the service could proceed.

It’s not for me a question of defending paedophiles, but rather preserving the integrity of the seal of sacramental question. Now, demanding paedophiles confess their crimes to the police before absolving them, which you are implying is what is happening, is a completely different ballgame. There are also other factors to consider from a mental health perspective which we as clergy are not supposed to deal with. But I do feel that the actual sacrament of reconciliation and what is said therein should be completely private and inviolable. In the US, it is protected by law, within certain parameters.
 
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