Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73

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Thanks for sharing but this is not a new argument it is an old “argument in silence (Dressler?).

When did I say these were new arguments? I said I am reviewing the evidence on both sides of the question for each text. Some may be new arguments. But most will not because we have had 2,000 years of discussion about the faith.
 
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tall73

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It is an “argument of silence” and the premise is that because there is no scripture verse stating that no one kept the seventh day Sabbath prior to Exodus 16 therefore no one kept the seventh day Sabbath ever until Exodus 16. Yet this same “argument of silence” can be made not just for God’s 4th commandment but for everyone of Gods’ 10 commandments. So, what I would like to examine here, from the scriptures prior to Exodus 16 is, does the premise of this “argument in silence” mean that none of God’s people knew about or kept, not just God’s 4th commandment Sabbath but anyone of God’s 10 commandments or the laws for remission of sins and sin offerings prior to Exodus 16-20.

Yet this same “argument of silence” can be made not just for God’s 4th commandment but for everyone of Gods’ 10 commandments.


Yes, and also:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Sin was in the world before the law. But the law was not spelled out for all in the same way.

The point I made here is that this is the first spelled out requirement for Sabbath keeping, and the first clear example of Sabbath keeping.

This also relates to our earlier discussion in Romans 2:


Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

There are some who do not have the law. Yet they do by nature the things contained in the law.
 
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tall73

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FIRST TABLE:

Please show from Scripture where you get the notion that the first table contained four commandments.

Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments

Agreed, you have now demonstrated that they were aware of the requirement to not have other gods long before the time of Exodus 16.

And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which [were] in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem.

Yes, this shows they were aware of it long before Exodus 16.


And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Yes, this shows understanding of the third commandment in a time usually dated to the patriarchal period, and therefore, before Exodus 16.


Didn't see any humans stated to be keeping or breaking the sabbath there prior to Ex. 16.

Some of the other texts you referenced (Genesis, Mark, etc.) we will be addressing.
 
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tall73

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Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.

You have now demonstrated obedience to parents prior to Exodus 16.

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Agreed, shows murder was a problem long before Exodus 16.

And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What [is] this [that] thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she [was] thy wife?

Yes, adultery was a known problem long before Exodus 16.

With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what [is] thine with me, and take [it] to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them.

Yes, stealing was recognized as wrong long before Exodus 16.

My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.

Lying was a known wrong, which would include bearing false witness.

And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God [is] not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

Agreed.
 
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tall73

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So for me if we are doing an honest scripture review as shown through the scriptures

Yes that is the goal. And so far you only demonstrated humans referring to nine, not ten.

We will be addressing Genesis and Mark as well.
 
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tall73

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Keep in mind also when you read Exodus 20:8-11 the commandment starts of "REMEMBER" the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

It is to be remembered because it is an appointed time. Which of the other ten are an appointed time?
 
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tall73

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*Genesis 2:3 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did Abraham keep the passover?

The reason why I believe the Exodus 16 command was given is shown in the chapter contexts. In Exodus 16, prior to the promulgation of the Decalogue and the inauguration of the Mosaic covenant, Israel obeyed the Sabbath law by resting “on the seventh day” (Exod. 16:30). God indicated in this chapter that some Israelites, however, were not keeping the Sabbath commandment with these words:“How long do you [plural] refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions [or ‘laws’; Heb. torah]?



Exo 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
Exo 16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exo 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.

They all came to tell Moses that there was twice as much. Then he explains why:

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exo 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

He has to explain how the Sabbath works. So how did they already know it?

Nor did they keep it. And they were not punished at this point with death as was later the case.

He again reiterates the six days then the sabbath, and this time they listen and do it.

Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

See, the LORD has given you the sabbath . . .” (Exod. 16:28-29). That this is not a new, unknown institution seems to be indicated by the words of Exodus 16:23,

He explained it right there, and we don't see it explained before. Moreover, they ignored it. Yet they were not stricken.

If they already knew it why tell everyone again, and why were they so confused? If they had been disobeying it for some time, why were they not punished?

Now if you want to argue that they had been in slavery for years and didn't know better and He had to restate it, ok. But then why wait for over a month? And why do we not see it stated that way?

It is clear that God had previously spoken and instituted a Sabbath for which ancient Israel was accountable prior to the inauguration of the Mosaic covenant....

Now this we agree on, it was before Exodus 19. However, it is spelled out in chapter 16. And it seems to be all rather new to them, and they don't do it but are not killed.
 
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tall73

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Ex 20:11 makes the case that the first text showing that humans were obligated to keep God's Sabbath - was Gen 2:1-3. So then that is "the first text" indicating human beings are commanded to keep the Sabbath.

We will be talking a look at Genesis 2, as I mentioned form the first post.



Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind - not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaks to the "making of both" in Gen 1 - Gen 2:3.

We will be looking at this as well.

No wonder gentiles are commanded not to profane the Sabbath in Is 56:6.
Is 56:
Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;

And this.

after the cross in the New Earth according Is 66:23.

We will be looking at that as well.

In this case I posted Exodus 16, and you didn't reference that text much at all.

Do you see anything in the text of Exodus 16 you wish to comment on?
 
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BobRyan

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In this case I posted Exodus 16, and you didn't reference that text much at all.

Do you see anything in the text of Exodus 16 you wish to comment on?



23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD (YHWH): bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. (KJV)


23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. (NASB)


28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "" How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
29 ""See, the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.''
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

===================================
Exodus 16 is of interest to me for a few reasons.

1. It refutes the more recent claims of some who suggest that God told Israel to "pick one day 1 in 7 as your Sabbath... then whatever day that is be sure to keep your Sabbath". Rather it is "the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) .. Ex 20:10 also affirms it.
  • Israel had no control over which day was "7" in Gen 2:1-3
  • they had no control over which day God would not rain down manna during the week
  • and they were given no input into God's statement "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"

2. It refutes the idea that Exodus 20 is the first time they heard about the Genesis 2 fact.

3. It is God who would have the responsibility for knowing the exact day of the week at Sinai that would match the exact day of the week in Gen 2:1-3 as the 7th day. So no need to try and figure out if someone "Else" was keeping track.

4. Certainly during the captivity in Egypt - as slaves they would not have any way to keep Sabbath and it suggests that God would not have given them over to that state of slavery in Egypt had they not already left God while in Egypt - before becoming slaves.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The point I made here is that this is the first spelled out requirement for Sabbath keeping, and the first clear example of Sabbath keeping.
I think posts # 1078 and post # 1079 linked, debunks the myth of the "argument of silence" that Gods' law was not known by God's people (see Genesis 26:5) prior to Exodus 16 to Exodus 20. As shown through the scriptures already, everyone of God's 10 commandments can be listed and shown prior to Exodus 16 and Exodus 20. So to state there was no law (and you cannot separate Gods' Sabbath law from the 10 commandments as it is one of the 10) prior to Exodus 16 or Exodus 20 is simply not biblical.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another There are some who do not have the law. Yet they do by nature the things contained in the law.
We need to keep in mind the context of what Paul is saying here in Romans 2. Paul is not stating that Gentiles are righteous because they do by nature some things in the law. He is simply stating that by doing what is in the law from the heart even if we do not know what is in the law gentiles are doing the right thing.

The context here of course is that it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doers of the law that shall be justified. Of course we are talking about God's 10 commandments here as it is through the law that Paul states we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7.

So the point of these scripture in Romans 2 and Romans 3 is to show that none are righteous before God no not one therefore we can only be justified through God's forgiveness and faith *Romans 3:9-23 but this faith is not like some teach in abolishing God's law (10 commandments), but saving faith according to Paul establishes God's law *Romans 3:31.

So to claim we are following God according to the scriptures while breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken is not saving faith but the faith of devils who believe but do not follow *James 2:17-20; 26.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Please show from Scripture where you get the notion that the first table contained four commandments.
I do not need to. The tables were in reference to Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 of the two great commandments of love to God and man. The first four commandments are our duty of Love to God and the second six are our duty of love to our fellow man. On these two commandments of love hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40)
Agreed, you have now demonstrated that they were aware of the requirement to not have other gods long before the time of Exodus 16 Yes, this shows they were aware of it long before Exodus 16. Yes, this shows understanding of the third commandment in a time usually dated to the patriarchal period, and therefore, before Exodus 16.
I believe the scriptures provided in posts # 1078 and post # 1079 linked, show that all of God's 10 commandments were known by God's people.
Didn't see any humans stated to be keeping or breaking the sabbath there prior to Ex. 16. Some of the other texts you referenced (Genesis, Mark, etc.) we will be addressing.
In Exodus 16, prior to the promulgation of the Decalogue and the inauguration of the Mosaic covenant, Israel obeyed the Sabbath law by resting “on the seventh day” (Exod. 16:30). God indicated in this chapter that some Israelites, however, were not keeping the Sabbath commandment meaning that the Sabbath was being kept prior to Exodus 16 with these words: “How long do you [plural] refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions [or ‘laws’; Heb. torah]? See, the LORD has given you the sabbath . . .” (Exod. 16:28-29). That this is not a new, unknown institution seems to be indicated by the words of Exodus 16:23, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD.” The NASB is the only major English translation that translates the Hebrew dabar as “meant.” It is normally translated at this point as “said” or “commanded.” Taking it as “meant” does not necessarily rule out that God had said or commanded these very words (or something close to them) at some point prior to the events narrated in Exodus 16. It is clear that God had previously spoken and instituted a Sabbath for which ancient Israel was accountable prior to the inauguration of the Mosaic covenant.

On top of this we have also seen that the Sabbath was instituted at creation in the Garden of Eden and was given to Adam and Eve with Jesus as the creator stating that the Sabbath was made for man kind in Mark 2:27.

The Sabbath was made on the “seventh day” of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. While man was made on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. Now why did God make the Sabbath for? JESUS answers this very question and says *Mark 2:27, And he said to them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. So the reason that the Sabbath was made was for man. Adam and Eve represented our first parents and mankind. Therefore according to Jesus Adam and Eve were the first to keep the first Sabbath in the garden of Eden!

The Sabbath and all of God’s commandments were handed down to thier children of made known by the spoken Word of God as well as God's plan of salvation that God made known to Adam and Eve in *Genesis 3:14-15 for all those who wished to follow God's Word. As it is written in the scriptures

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. The Hebrew word used for laws in this scripture is Torah.

God's people knew what sin was before Exodus all through this early period by hearing the Word of God. They also offered sin offerings when they sinned during this early period.

Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7) Jesus says that which defiles a man is an evil heart that breaks God’s commandments *Matthew 15:16:19. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).
When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

So, it is very clear that the spoken word of God included God’s commandments, not only as the knowledge of what good and evil; sin and righteousness were but also the laws for remission of sin [forgiveness] if any of God’s laws were broken. If they had no law then they would have no knowledge of what sin is.

If they did not know what sin was there would have been no need of sin offerings. Yet here we also see in Genesis 22:2-7 that it was a regular practice for Abraham and his family to offer burnt offerings for sin. So before Mt Sinai God’s people had the spoken Word of God and practiced the torah of the old covenant.

After slavery to the Egyptians they received the written Word of God but through all this time God’s people had a knowledge of what sin was and what to do if sin was committed. God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin and it lies at his door. Jesus says the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God.

Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7). Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). God destroys mankind for evil and sin with a flood as well as Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and the Egyptians with plagues for disobedience to God's WORD *Genesis 6:5-13; Genesis 13:10-13; 18:20-33; 19:24; Exodus 9:13-14.

If there was no knowledge of sin there would be no punishment for it. God’s WORD is very clear that all of God’s Commandments were kept by God’s people before the written WORD through the Spoken WORD of GOD. God's 10 commandments give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness. *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. If we break any one of them we stand guilty before god of sin according to James in James 2:10-11.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is if broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:&. According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8.

.............

CONCLUSION: God's SABBATH was made for mankind. Adam and Eve were the first to keep it with God in the Garden of Eden. God's WORD and God's laws were known by the spoken word of God passed down to God's people from Adam and Eve from generation to generation. All of God's TORAH laws for remission of sins (not Mosaic; referring to animal sacrifices for sin offerings) were practiced before Sinai this included sin offerings. God has always had a people that followed his Word although not all people followed God's Word according to the scriptures.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Did Abraham keep the passover?
Of course not. It was a different covenant given to the seed of Abraham. Did Abraham keep the laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifice? If he did than he knew what sin was right?
Exo 16:19-25 ..... (scriptures snipped to save space for repost) They all came to tell Moses that there was twice as much. Then he explains why: He has to explain how the Sabbath works. So how did they already know it? Nor did they keep it. And they were not punished at this point with death as was later the case. He again reiterates the six days then the sabbath, and this time they listen and do it.
You need to keep in mind here that God's people were slaves in Egypt for 400 years. During this time it would have been quite possible over many generations that their habits and their slavery would have made it difficult if not impossible for them to practice God's laws therefore the necessity to leave Egypt and for God to make known all His laws again including the introduction of a new covenant with more written laws in the Torah outlining God's plan of salvation for all mankind.
LoveGodsWord wrote: It is clear that God had previously spoken and instituted a Sabbath for which ancient Israel was accountable prior to the inauguration of the Mosaic covenant....

Now this we agree on, it was before Exodus 19. However, it is spelled out in chapter 16. And it seems to be all rather new to them, and they don't do it but are not killed.
Your micro-quoting me again. I did ask you not to do this many time already as most of what you try to argue here is already addressed in the rest of my post you left out. As posted earlier it is quite clear from the scriptures that God's people always had Gods' laws and practiced them as shown in the scriptures Genesis already provided in posts # 1078 and post # 1079 linked and the follow up posts. There is no indication anywhere in Exodus 16 that God had not given His people prior to Exodus His laws. It fact it is God Himself that states that He had given His people both his Sabbath and laws in Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 and Genesis 26:5 and to state otherwise would be to deny the very Words of God. As posted earlier it is an argument of silence your trying to make here when there is no silence on this matter.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is to be remembered because it is an appointed time. Which of the other ten are an appointed time?
No. It is one of God's 10 commandments and says...

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT

"REMEMBER" is pointing to something already known something in the past that according to Jesus was given to all mankind (Mark 2:27). REMEMBER points back to creation *Genesis 2:1-3 when God made the Sabbath on the "seventh day" of the creation week for all mankind and blessed the "seventh day" and set it apart as a Holy day of rest and remembrance of creation and God as our creator of heaven and earth. Gods' 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments according to Paul and James that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 and righteousness when obeyed according to the scriptures (Psalms 119:172).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Yes that is the goal. And so far you only demonstrated humans referring to nine, not ten. We will be addressing Genesis and Mark as well.

As shown in the scriptures already provided in posts # 1078 and post # 1079 linked and the follow up posts # 1091 linked everyone of God's 10 commandments have been shown to exist prior to Exodus 16 not 9 but all the 10. I would like to add here in light of the overwhelming amount of scripture that seems to disagree with your position here, even if Gods' commandments where only known in Exodus 16 and Exodus 20 it is not an excuse to break them when we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word according to the scriptures as shown in James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. When God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word it makes us more accountable to God as he expects us to believe and follow them according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30. According to the scriptures, if we reject God's Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin once God shows is what sin is we stand before God guilty of sin and in danger of the judgement according to Hebrews 10:26-31. I appreciate the discussion but I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. As shown through the scriptures your argument from silence on this issue does not stand.
 
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tall73

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1. It refutes the more recent claims of some who suggest that God told Israel to "pick one day 1 in 7 as your Sabbath... then whatever day that is be sure to keep your Sabbath". Rather it is "the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) .. Ex 20:10 also affirms it.
  • Israel had no control over which day was "7" in Gen 2:1-3
  • they had no control over which day God would not rain down manna during the week
  • and they were given no input into God's statement "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"
Agreed, the Lord selected the day. And I don't see how that can be reconciled with the one in 7 view either.

3. It is God who would have the responsibility for knowing the exact day of the week at Sinai that would match the exact day of the week in Gen 2:1-3 as the 7th day. So no need to try and figure out if someone "Else" was keeping track.

Can you elaborate on that part a bit? Who would be the someone else?

4. Certainly during the captivity in Egypt - as slaves they would not have any way to keep Sabbath and it suggests that God would not have given them over to that state of slavery in Egypt had they not already left God while in Egypt - before becoming slaves.

I am not sure that follows. Many faithful people have been persecuted, both in the old and new testament, and today.

The people were oppressed, but the Lord still remembered them, watched over them, blessed and multiplied them, and they still regarded Him per the text. Moreover, this was predicted ahead of time:

Gen 15:13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.
Gen 15:14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
Gen 15:15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”


Exo 1:7 But the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them.


Exo 1:12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and the more they spread abroad. And the Egyptians were in dread of the people of Israel.
Exo 1:13 So they ruthlessly made the people of Israel work as slaves

Exo 1:17 But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live.

Exo 1:20 So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong.

Exo 2:23 During those many days the king of Egypt died, and the people of Israel groaned because of their slavery and cried out for help. Their cry for rescue from slavery came up to God.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Exo 4:31 And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had visited the people of Israel and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed their heads and worshiped.


That is not to downplay the effect of 400 years of slavery. And they would not have been allowed free worship as before. They certainly doubted, grumbled, etc. and showed lack of faith many times.


In any case He didn't choose them for their righteousness, but for His name's sake.
 
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BobRyan

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3. It is God who would have the responsibility for knowing the exact day of the week at Sinai that would match the exact day of the week in Gen 2:1-3 as the 7th day. So no need to try and figure out if someone "Else" was keeping track.

Can you elaborate on that part a bit? Who would be the someone else?

Someone "else" would be someone from the vast group of people that were alive between Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 16.
 
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BobRyan

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4. Certainly during the captivity in Egypt - as slaves they would not have any way to keep Sabbath and it suggests that God would not have given them over to that state of slavery in Egypt had they not already left God while in Egypt - before becoming slaves.


I am not sure that follows. Many faithful people have been persecuted, both in the old and new testament, and today.

The point is not that only descendants of Jacob were ever persecuted -- the point is that only they were retaining the worship of the one true God (in some fashion) by the time we get to the Exodus - and so only they would have had a chance as a people to have known about the Sabbath commandment given in Eden - that late in the period of human history. But Ezek 20:7-10, Josh 24:14 says they went into idolatry while in Egypt and were subsequently subjected to slavery.. So even they had only a slim hold on that reality.
 
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tall73

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The point is not that only descendants of Jacob were ever persecuted -- the point is that only they were retaining the worship of the one true God (in some fashion) by the time we get to the Exodus - and so only they would have had a chance as a people to have known about the Sabbath commandment given in Eden - that late in the period of human history. But Ezek 20:7-10, Josh 24:14 and Psalms says they went into idolatry while in Egypt and were subsequently subjected to slavery.. So even they had on a slim hold on that reality.

Thank you, this is an interesting text to consider. However, the timing indicated is towards the end of their stay, rather than the beginning of settling in the land after Joseph.

So am not sure that indicates that those who were in Egypt after Joseph turned away from the Lord immediately, but that those who were in slavery for years had grown away from the Lord. The Lord already knew that they would be in slavery, per Genesis. And it is not mentioned as a punishment for them, but rather that the nation that they served would be punished, (and the people in the promised land who were still filling up their measure of wrath.

However, it does certainly indicate here, as you referenced, that they turned to idols in the time before they left Egypt. And we would see further evidence of this in the golden calf incident, etc. Although we still see some who were faithful, as the midwives account points out, a remnant, as is often the case. Joshua and Caleb would be other examples. However, here, as in other cases, a faithful remnant does not prevent judgment on an overall sinful nation. And God could have destroyed them but did not for the same of His name. Though He later did destroy that whole generation in the wilderness. So that supports the notion that the generation that came out largely refused to repent.

Nor was I saying that Israel was the only people who were persecuted. But I was saying that God does not necessarily keep people from tests that might make them die rather than compromise. So I am not sure that it follows that He would not allow such slavery if they had not already turned away. However, even in that scenario, if you postulate Sabbath observance, the faithful may have been martyred and the rest consented. So either way the scenario could play out.

4 “Will you judge them? Will you judge them, son of man? Then confront them with the detestable practices of their ancestors 5 and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I chose Israel, I swore with uplifted hand to the descendants of Jacob and revealed myself to them in Egypt. With uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the Lord your God.” 6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of Egypt into a land I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands. 7 And I said to them, “Each of you, get rid of the vile images you have set your eyes on, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.” 8 “‘But they rebelled against me and would not listen to me; they did not get rid of the vile images they had set their eyes on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in Egypt. 9 But for the sake of my name, I brought them out of Egypt. I did it to keep my name from being profaned in the eyes of the nations among whom they lived and in whose sight I had revealed myself to the Israelites. 10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, by which the person who obeys them will live. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. 13 “‘Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—by which the person who obeys them will live—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths.

Verse 12 is a reference to Exodus 31. It reiterates that the Sabbaths were given to them as a sign.
 
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Someone "else" would be someone from the vast group of people that were alive between Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 16.

Do you postulate that most of them ceased to observe the Sabbath by that time?
 
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Do you postulate that most of them ceased to observe the Sabbath by that time?

The Egyptians were not known for keeping the Sabbath as slave masters. Once Israel was handed over into slavery they had very little autonomy even to have a child.
 
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