Why do people even want to put evolution in the equation?

MittenMaven · Mar 24, 2021

Religiot said:
Really? how so?

because young earth believers deny the overwhelming evidence of God Given General Revelation that states the universe is undeniably billions of years old.

Because those Christians believe that God would deceive by creating massive direct and indirect evidence for evolution in genetics biology and paleontology.

If evolution is not true then God has tried very hard to deceive his creatures.

Explain to me why God created humans with a second chromosome to look strongly like two fused ape chromosomes. Why did God create apes with 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans with 23 and make it look like chromosome 2 is the fusion of two ape chromosomes? Is God a deceiver?

Why is God such a rotten engineer that the recurrent laryngeal nerve is in the wrong place and takes a long route which is horribly inefficient?

Job 33:6 · Mar 24, 2021

Religiot said:
Wow. --in your discussion about Genesis (Origin), you are not talking about "initial-creation"...

I must be dumber than I thought, cause by the life of me, I thought that the discussion was always about what God made, in the beginning, yet here you are, telling me that you're all talking about some other creation, not the first, but some other--wow... ...so how many other creations are there? and please, bother to provide at least one citation of evidence for each, thanks.

I was talking to someone else about how life changed after initial creation. That's what I was referring to.

I don't believe there have been two creations. I think youre speaking to the wrong person if you think that I do.

You jumped into the conversation kind of out of the blue and I wasn't sure what you were talking about so I edited my last answer for you.

Religiot said:
Really? how so?

As someone noted above, young earthers, while often times they are honest with their interpretations of scripture, they tend to not be particularly honest (at least not public speakers for yecism) when it comes to discussions about creation itself as observed through science.

I could easily go into websites like answers in genesis for example, and could easily find factually incorrect misinformation (typically misrepresentation of scientific information). It's just the way it is.

But to be particular, I've posted a video a couple times now in this thread that I think YECs tend to either not understand (which is fine, most people aren't scientists and I don't expect everyone to just instantly understand), but some YECs also do not want to understand. They don't want to take an honest approach on what exists in creation. Which I view as an extension of Gods word, as He spoke creation into existence.

If you're a yec, you're welcome to be a subject of my words, below is the video if you would like to take an honest approach to the topic. Feel free to review the brief video below and describe how yecism accounts for the existences of corresponding phylogenetic trees.

And if you have any questions about the video, I don't bite, and you are welcome to ask.

MittenMaven · Mar 24, 2021

KomatiiteBIF said:
I was talking to someone else about how life changed after initial creation. That's what I was referring to.

I don't believe there have been two creations. I think youre speaking to the wrong person if you think that I do.

You jumped into the conversation kind of out of the blue and I wasn't sure what you were talking about so I edited my last answer for you.

As someone noted above, young earthers, while often times they are honest with their interpretations of scripture, they tend to not be particularly honest (at least not public speakers for yecism) when it comes to discussions about creation itself as observed through science.

I could easily go into websites like answers in genesis for example, and could easily find factually incorrect misinformation (typically misrepresentation of scientific information). It's just the way it is.

But to be particular, I've posted a video a couple times now in this thread that I think YECs tend to either not understand (which is fine, most people aren't scientists and I don't expect everyone to just instantly understand), but some YECs also do not want to understand. They don't want to take an honest approach on what exists in creation. Which I view as an extension of Gods word, as He spoke creation into existence.

If you're a yec, you're welcome to be a subject of my words, below is the video if you would like to take an honest approach to the topic. Feel free to review the brief video below and describe how yecism accounts for the existences of corresponding phylogenetic trees.

And if you have any questions about the video, I don't bite, and you are welcome to ask.

interesting video. I think more videos need to be made that don’t condemn others for their beliefs but rather explain the evolutionary biology in simple non threatening terms and ideas.

I really like the book “Your inner fish”

2PhiloVoid · Mar 24, 2021

Religiot said:
I'm fully convinced in my heart that it is: please tell me why you think that it isn't. --I would truly appreciate a thoughtful explanation.

Thanks in advance.

Ok. To keep this simple, I'll just say that my point of view regarding the Theory of Evolution comes as it does from the fact that I grew up in a libertarian household in which an appreciationg of the sciences was generally fostered. Thus, while growing up, I heard a lot from my dad's interest in NASA and we watched the television program, COSMOS, hosted by Carl Sagan when it was on in the early 1980s. And as a child, I also was quite fond of all that I could learn about dinosaurs. I thought that they, along with pseudo-scientific fictions found in Star Trek, Star Wars, King Kong & Godzilla and comic books, were fascinating.

But now that I'm older, and in looking back at all that I've read and studied, my still Christian position and understanding of evolution is not dissimilar from that of April Maskiewicz Cordero, Ph.D.

See this other Christian Forum thread I made a few years back in which there is a youtube video by April where she explains her own understanding of Evolution and how she holds it in tandem with her own Christian faith:

She embraced the E Word as she contemplated the F Word....!

Contenders Edge · Mar 24, 2021

The Barbarian said:
Since not one of those people said that they were literal days, I'm thinking the question is sort of self-answering.

It is written that each day of creation came with morning and evening. How can morning and evening accompany a day that is not literal? And if there be any need for any further theological confirmation, God commanded that man should work six days and rest on the Sabbath for in six days, it is written that God had created all things and rested on the Sabbath and made it holy. (Ex. 20:10-11) If the days of creation were anything but literal days, why does God present a seven day week in literal terms? If the days of creation were anything but literal, why then does scripture leave the literal rendering uncorrected?

The Barbarian said:
That's the rub. People who think they hate it, don't know what it is. Just to clarify, what else, besides the origin of life, did you think it was about?

It is nothing more but a philosophy pertaining to the origin of life, but wasn't it you who had said that evolution was never intended to explain the origin of life?

The Barbarian said:
Another good example of what I was talking about. Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't random. Would you be willing to go and find out what it is about, and then come back and tell us about it?

Why don't you tell the atheists and agnostics to do the same? Why should I be the only one?

The Barbarian said:
No. God acknowledges that Adam is not immortal, and expresses concern that he might become so:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

God created Adam to be immortal and provided the tree of life to make it so, but because of his disobedience, Adam was cut off from the tree of life and therefore subject to death (spiritually and physically)

The Barbarian said:
Because it's not a physical death Jesus' death and Resurrection saved us from. All of us will die physically one day. Our bodies will decay and return to the earth. But we will be raised up and we will have new incorruptible bodies.

But if the wages of sin is not death to the body as well as to the soul, then why raise our bodies up? Why liberate them from the bondage of death and decay if such was not brought into the world by the sin of Adam?

The Barbarian said:
All these new man-made doctrines they have thought up, sure make it seem that way.

What doctrine have they made up that is at odds with scriptural teaching? How does their rendering of the Genesis account defy the context thereof?

The Barbarian said:
Which as we have just discussed, is what creationists are doing.

But how so? They are not the ones putting death, the curse, and all manner of suffering and evil before sin. They are not the ones who are claiming the six days of creation to be more or less longer than any ordinary day. They are not the ones claiming that living things reproduce offspring different in kind from themselves.

Job 33:6 · Mar 24, 2021

MittenMaven said:
interesting video. I think more videos need to be made that don’t condemn others for their beliefs but rather explain the evolutionary biology in simple non threatening terms and ideas.

I really like the book “Your inner fish”

I completely agree. Unfortunately a lot of atheists have basically "hijacked" or "claimed" a lot of scientific ideas. Some of the best scientific info, at least on public media sources such as youtube, are unfortunately have an atheistic undertone. Although Don Exodus 2 I believe did also make a video about why he is Christian, although that was years and years ago I recall.

And yea, your inner fish is a good book. All of shubins books I think are worth a read. A lot of Devonian fossils are pulled from outcrops in NY and PA, which is also where I tend to look at them. That's where much Shubins research has occurred.

It's also unfortunate that the word "creationism" has also largely been claimed by younger creationists. Like creation.com for example often has information that is geared toward younger creationists, but it excludes old earth creationists or people who believe in creation by means of evolution.

So we end up with this false dichotomy of atheism versus young earth creationism, but really there's a lot in the middle too.

I've also really appreciated writings by Kenneth Miller who is a Roman Catholic and I like writings by figures in the biologos foundation which host s a body of Christian scientists who speak on faith and science through things like podcasts and public speeches, webinars etc

Contenders Edge · Mar 24, 2021

genez said:
Why no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?

If you had T-Rex's running loose? Why do we only read about lions and bears and cobras?

Because? God had created other worlds before this one!

Before Darwin was even born, Bible scholars were finding this to be evident. But, they did not know what to make of it. When Darwinism walked on stage the works of these previous scholars became re-discovered. Often times, suppressed and lied about by servants of their religious flesh, not the Spirit.

The alleged "Gap theory" was not a new invention made up to counter evolutionists as young earth creationists attempt to get us to believe. The Bible has always been showing that we are not the first creation created by God on this planet. Ignorance and emotionalism are the enemy of securing knowledge of the Truth needed to make us free from the lies of the world.

Have you noticed that scripture frequently speaks of creatures called "dragons?" Dragons have often been depicted as large terrifying creatures possessing predominantly reptilian features; much in the same way "dinosaur" has been used to define the same. That cannot be a coincidence. And even if the various legends of dragons we read about are myths and embellishments, what could possibly have inspired them except a time in history when man was once living alongside creatures of that sort and nature?

Even the book of Job describes two creatures that existed during his lifetime but are unlike anything that we have ever seen in our generation. The prophet Isaiah himself even spoke of what he called "fiery flying serpents" (Is. 14:29, 30:6) Do you think that God is of such limited power that He could not have enabled every living thing that He ever created to have existed side by side with one another and in perfect peace and harmony on the same planet before sin and death entered it because of Adam's disobedience and before creation was afflicted with a curse as a consequence?

genez said:
Here... see for yourself.

Jewish commentators made the discovery, but their early literature
(the Midrash for example) reveals that they had some intimation of
an early pre-Adamic catastrophe affecting the whole earth. Sim-
ilarly, clear evidence appears in the oldest extant Version of the
Hebrew Scriptures (the Targum of 0nkelos)and some intimation may
be seen in the "punctuation marks" of the Massoretic text of Genesis
Chapter One. Early Jewish writers subsequently built up some
abstruse arguments about God's dealings with Israel on the basis of
this belief and it would seem that Paul in his Epistle to the Corinth-
ians is at one point making indirect reference to this traditional
background.
A few of the early Church Fathers accepted this interpretation and
based some of their doctrines upon it. It is true that both they and
their Jewish antecedents used arguments which to us seem at times
to have no force whatever, but this is not the issue. The truth is,
as we shall see, that the idea of a once ordered world having been
brought to ruin as a consequence of divine judgment just prior to the
creation of Adam, was apparently quite widespread. It was not
debated: it was merely held by some and not by others. Those who
held it referred to it and built up arguments upon it without apparently
feeling the need to apologize for believing as they did, nor for ex-
plaining the grounds for their faith.

What discovery did these early commentators make to suggest that there was some pre-Adamic cataclysm before the initial creation of the world?
In which epistle to the Corinthian church was the Apostle Paul alluding to this traditional background; what passage and verse?
On what basis did any of the early church fathers adhere to this gap theory?

genez said:
Origen, for example, who lived from 186 to about 254 A.D., and
to whom the original languages of the Bible were very familiar, has
this to say in his great work, De Principiis, at Gen. 1.1:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of
in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven
and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we
now see afterwards borrowed their names."
And that he saw verse 2 as a description of a "casting down" of the
original is borne out quite clearly by his subsequent observation that
the condition resulted from a "disruption" which is best described, he
suggests, by the Latin verb dejicere, ‘to throw down’.

In the course of time, attempts were made - not unnaturally - to
fill in the details of the event which led up to the devastation described.
Since all such effects were presumed to be moral judgments and since
man had not yet been created, the angels were blamed.

What, in the context, of the first two verses of scripture suggested to Origen that there had been some world that existed previously before the one created for Adam? All I see is that the earth was shapeless and void. Nothing about a previous destruction.

genez said:
There was a real Gap between creations! Its not a theory!

Many years before Darwin was born, Bible scholars were clearly seeing that an unknown prehistoric world had been judged and devastated. Its why Jeremiah used Genesis 1:2 to prophesy a warning to the evil Jews. A warning that Genesis 1:2 was about to happen to them!

This is what Jeremiah threatened the evil Jews with concerning God's judgment of them... (its Gen 1:2)

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light." Jer 4:23

A verse often taken out of context by gap theorist proponents since the succeeding verses tell us what the vision pertained to the coming judgment upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians:

"For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
The whole city shall flee the noise of the horsemen and bowmen, the shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein." (Jer. 4:27-29)

genez said:
Genesis 1:2 does not mean simply... "without form and void." Not to the Hebrew reader who understood what words meant at the time of Moses. It meant destruction and devastation.
Its silly how the evolution vs young earth debate keeps dragging on, and on, and on. Ignorance keeps people buying tickets to a fight where no one can win.

The Hebrew word for void in this case does not specifically mean destruction and devastation, but is predominantly used to describe "emptiness" or "nothingness" and there is nothing in the creation account to contextually suggest that anything was destroyed before the creation of the earth.

loveofourlord · Mar 24, 2021

genez said:
Both evolutionists and young earth creationists refuse to embrace reality. They need each other to perpetuate their momentum in having a cause to live by. Its emotionally based like rooting for one's favorite sport team.

You can see their lies. They see your lies. But, both do not see the truth they are both missing.

Where does that leave us?

You did not come here thinking you were going to convince a young earth creationist, did you?

Both like the challenge of an argument.

What lies are there in evolution?

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

Contenders Edge said:
Have you noticed that scripture frequently speaks of creatures called "dragons?" Dragons have often been depicted as large terrifying creatures possessing predominantly reptilian features; much in the same way "dinosaur" has been used to define the same. That cannot be a coincidence. And even if the various legends of dragons we read about are myths and embellishments, what could possibly have inspired them except a time in history when man was once living alongside creatures of that sort and nature?

Even the book of Job describes two creatures that existed during his lifetime but are unlike anything that we have ever seen in our generation. The prophet Isaiah himself even spoke of what he called "fiery flying serpents" (Is. 14:29, 30:6) Do you think that God is of such limited power that He could not have enabled every living thing that He ever created to have existed side by side with one another and in perfect peace and harmony on the same planet before sin and death entered it because of Adam's disobedience and before creation was afflicted with a curse as a consequence?

What discovery did these early commentators make to suggest that there was some pre-Adamic cataclysm before the initial creation of the world?
In which epistle to the Corinthian church was the Apostle Paul alluding to this traditional background; what passage and verse?
On what basis did any of the early church fathers adhere to this gap theory?

What, in the context, of the first two verses of scripture suggested to Origen that there had been some world that existed previously before the one created for Adam? All I see is that the earth was shapeless and void. Nothing about a previous destruction.

A verse often taken out of context by gap theorist proponents since the succeeding verses tell us what the vision pertained to the coming judgment upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians:

"For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
The whole city shall flee the noise of the horsemen and bowmen, the shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein." (Jer. 4:27-29)

The Hebrew word for void in this case does not specifically mean destruction and devastation, but is predominantly used to describe "emptiness" or "nothingness" and there is nothing in the creation account to contextually suggest that anything was destroyed before the creation of the earth.

I won't be your eyes for you.

Jesus said that not everyone has eyes to see, nor ears to hear. What did he do when that happened?

Likewise.

I said what I said. Some will see.

grace and peace.

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

loveofourlord said:
What lies are there in evolution?

That man evolved from a lower creation, for one.

When God says we were created (bara= instant creation) in His image. Not transformed into His image from something else.

Another lie, is that primitive man could not understand evolutionary process. The Bible has no problem speaking about transmutation. Just look what the Lord did to the serpent.

Man was able to comprehend that we came from a lower creature if we had. But, God's Word said that it is not the case.

We need the filling of the Spirit. Human rational thinking alone will be left out in the cold. God exposes our natural trends by using others... showing where we remain deficiency without His grace working in us. For, God wants to transform us all in our minds. Divine spiritual Evolution.

loveofourlord · Mar 24, 2021

Contenders Edge said:
If you are simply going to trust your senses, then have you ever seen all life arise from non-life by random processes? Have you ever seen a dog give birth to a horse? Have you ever seen a lizard lay an egg that produced a bird?

What first hand observations have you made that would be called creation?

No and neither does evolution claim any of that so not sure your point :> This is what I mean by if creationists want to convince us maybe don't make fools of yourselves.

loveofourlord · Mar 24, 2021

coffee4u said:
They are mentioned in the Bible.

Job 40:15-24
“Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. “He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword! ...

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Job 41:1-34
“Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook or press down his tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many pleas to you? Will he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you put him on a leash for your girls? ...

Psalm 74:13
You divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.

Dinosaurs were called dragons for thousands of years before the name was changed to dinosaur in 1841. There are dragon stories all over the world because they have always intrigued and brought fear to man. Yet they are simply an animal, and like all animals no matter how fierce they are still no match for mankind.

behemoth that is a hippo, and leviathan that is a crocodile?

loveofourlord · Mar 24, 2021

genez said:
The first food eating animal could not have lived long enough to evolve to the point of being able to have its first bowel movement...

Its also amazingly impossible to have the opposite sexes co-evolving fast enough to have their first offspring...
Imagine a sperm evolving in a male, and an ovum independently evolving in a female... and lucking out 2000-5000 years later? Some marriages may seem like that, but in the real world no life could have lived long enough to evolve into what had survive-ability.

*face paws* congratulations :> You managed to get not a single thing correct :>

First multicelluar things were probably like what is it, blue/green algae that become multicelluar clusters in response to danger, over time things became more compartmentalized in order to better adapt.

Sexes also would have happened gradually and not immediately. Probably similar to how above happened with multicellular or something similar. funny how you go from 0 to 100 assuming there would be nothing between them. Come on these are ray comfort level arguments and he's the butt of jokes.

loveofourlord · Mar 24, 2021

genez said:
That man evolved from a lower creation, for one.

When God says we were created (bara= instant creation) in His image. Not transformed into His image from something else.

Another lie, is that primitive man could not understand evolutionary process. The Bible has no problem speaking about transmutation. Just look what the Lord did to the serpent.

Man was able to comprehend that we came from a lower creature if we had. But, God's Word said that it is not the case.

We need the filling of the Spirit. Human rational thinking alone will be left out in the cold. God exposes our natural trends by using others... showing where we remain deficiency without His grace working in us. For, God wants to transform us all in our minds. Divine spiritual Evolution.

you make one of the most fundamental mistakes in creationism, are you saying god has sex organs, or that god defecates, no image refers to the spirit that god gave to the first humans, nothing to do with the shape. For an eternal being that lives outside of time and space and is omnipresent, he's strangely anthromorphic.

atpollard · Mar 24, 2021

loveofourlord said:
*face paws* congratulations :> You managed to get not a single thing correct :>

First multicelluar things were probably like what is it, blue/green algae that become multicelluar clusters in response to danger, over time things became more compartmentalized in order to better adapt.

Sexes also would have happened gradually and not immediately. Probably similar to how above happened with multicellular or something similar. funny how you go from 0 to 100 assuming there would be nothing between them. Come on these are ray comfort level arguments and he's the butt of jokes.

They were making an argument for the problem of "irreducible complexity". So to quote you, back to you ...

"*face paws* congratulations :> You managed to get not a single thing correct :>"

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

loveofourlord said:
First multicelluar things were probably like what is it, blue/green algae that become multicelluar clusters in response to danger, over time things became more compartmentalized in order to better adapt.

Sexes also would have happened gradually and not immediately. Probably similar to how above happened with multicellular or something similar. funny how you go from 0 to 100 assuming there would be nothing between them. Come on these are ray comfort level arguments and he's the butt of jokes.

So, why did God lie?

He could have told us about evolution getting us to where we now find ourselves. Why lie?

Sex would have taken too long to evolve. Creatures (if they were possible that way) would have long died before any sexual reproduction could take place.

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

loveofourlord said:
you make one of the most fundamental mistakes in creationism, are you saying god has sex organs, or that god defecates, no image refers to the spirit that god gave to the first humans, nothing to do with the shape. For an eternal being that lives outside of time and space and is omnipresent, he's strangely anthromorphic.

Man was already created in God's Image BEFORE any body was given.

You're missing it.

Man's soul was created in God's Image. Male and female souls.

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

Religiot said:
The word of God is not preserved on pages, nor tables of stone, but in the hearts of His disciples alone.

Would you tell Jesus that?

How did Jesus refute Satan? "It is written."

How many times do we read about Jesus saying...."It is written."

(there were no voice recorders back then) Writing.

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

MittenMaven said:
Anti-evolution Christians are famous for circular reasoning. “Why do I believe the earth is 6000 years old? Because the Bible says so? Why do I believe the Bible? Because the Bible says that is the word of God” I can write my own book and claim in it that this book is true and is from God and could use the very same circular reasoning. Most other religions do the same thing.

There you go. Picking on the weak ones to make your position look strong.

GenemZ · Mar 24, 2021

MittenMaven said:
because young earth believers deny the overwhelming evidence of God Given General Revelation that states the universe is undeniably billions of years old.

Do you understand what is called the Gap theory? The best scholarly work comes out of that camp.

Evolutionists become like a "Preying" Mantis with young earth creationists.

Why do people even want to put evolution in the equation?

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