God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Dorothy Mae · Mar 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What actual verse or passage are you referring to?
Matthew 13:58 and Mark 6:5 is not a case where He was not able to heal but it was a case whereby He was not able to do mighty works (or mighty miracles) because of their unbelief. Sure, this may have included healing, but this event in Scripture does not specifically say. So what references in Scripture are you referring to?

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

In other places he healed all of them. Here only a few. Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it.

The apostle Paul explains a little more in detail what this was about.

“Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” (Ephesians 1:20-23).

Yet, there is nothing here about how Jesus was receiving His powers back as God.

That is because he did not receive his power back as thought he had been given it and gave it up and it was being returned to him. He received all authority and power in the first place after the resurrection. Jesus said he does nothing on his own. Do you need the verse for that?

This is false and unbiblical. While Jesus suppressed His Omnscience (i.e. the power to have all knowledge) during His earthly ministry, He clearly had power of His own according to the Scriptures.

That is false and unbiblical. No where does anyone say "Jesus suppressed his Omniscience." Sorry but that is not what it says. You make the mistake of thinking you know exactly how life was for Jesus on earth. You are in error.

Jesus had power as God:
(During His earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).

You forgot the verse before..

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Those who walk with the father can do these things and greater than what Jesus did can they do and the same is said of them. They can do nothing by themselves.

I don't think you understand what I am talking about. I am talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I was referring to this passage.

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).

That is what I am talking about. But if one has and moves in the gifts one, knows that one is always subject to the Lord even in those things. We can do nothing on our own in these matters.

“Faith” and “the work of faith” are two sides of the same coin that accesses the saving grace of God. Faith starts out as primarily a belief without any major efforts because we are throwing ourselves down upon the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. But when faith continues, it manifests itself as the work of faith (as we continue to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and what He has done for us). But make no mistake, faith without works is dead (James 2:17); And...

James 2:24 says,
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Yes, I am aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. But Paul was referring to Initial Salvation, and Foundational Salvation (See: for Ephesians 2:1 refers to how we have been quickened - which is a one time event; And Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace and it is like a gift. We know we receive gifts one time indicating that this is referring to Initial Salvation).

In addition:

Verse 9 is referring to “Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God's grace) because they are the kind of works that a man would boast in himself by doing them.

Verse 10 is referring to “God Directed Works Done Through the Believer” (After a person is saved by God's grace) because they are the kind of works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. Verse 10 type works happens after a person is saved by God's grace through faith in Christ as their Savior, and faith in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which also many times includes calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation, i.e. seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus - See: Romans 8:13).

Side Note:

We know that faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (i.e. obeying the Bible) (See: Romans 10:17). So if we obey the New Testament commands that Lord Jesus Christ, and His followers, we will be in line with the faith. This would include putting away serious sins (mortal sin) that the Bible condemns with warnings of hellfire and or condemnation, and it will include good works (i.e. the work of faith), and living holy (and not justifying sin like so many do today).

I mentioned nothing about Sinless Perfection. We are not allowed to discuss this topic in this section of the Christian forums. As for sharing my personal life: Simply put, I do not share precious truths of my personal life involving the Bible with those with whom I feel will reject and or mock such truths. It will simply do no good. I have nothing to prove. God knows my heart and life and He is my witness. Also, those fellow believers in whom I have close personal fellowship with are my witnesses, as well.

Important Note:

I don't believe all sin is the same. I believe there are sins not unto death, and sins unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus described to us the difference between mortal sins vs. non-mortal sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).

The words in blue above are non-mortal sins because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a mortal sin because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife. So when I reference about overcoming sin, I am referring to overcoming “mortal sins” in this section of the forums (and I am not referring to overcoming non-mortal sin or all sin, i.e. Sinless Perfection). For overcoming mortal sin deals with our salvation. Not overcoming non-mortal sin does not deal with our salvation.

I did not say you mentioned sinless perfection. I said I know people who do and the only way to test that is to see if they are indeed sinless. I also did not ask for your testimony. Does it fit into the discussion? From your post above I gather there are theological subjects not allowed to discuss.

I asked about your position or understanding of faith and works and the above is more a theological treatise and not your thoughts. I don't see that you answered the question but no matter.

A good day to you!

Fervent · Mar 21, 2021

MMXX said:
Based on objections you've received, you don't make it clear enough. Your trademark "sin and still be saved" line you deliver the most being the primary example. It clearly sounds like you're saying a Christian has to be completely free of sin to be saved. Which is what is being objected to. This has been pointed out numerus times to you, but it's like talking to a brick wall. You insist on sticking with your misconception that they're objecting because "they want to sin and still be saved".

Words that you're taking out of context. Which also has been pointed out, but you don't listen. You're right and everyone else is wrong, hence you sow contention in most threads you're in.

Same thing over and over, thread after thread.

When it boils down to it, for the seriousness of sin we cannot soft peddle. It is almost necessary to speak of a single sin as condemning when we are called to speak against sin. To not do so is to open the door for "acceptable sins" being excused rather than the perfection we are called to. Which is why in the west there is so much talk about how horrible the sins of others are while tolerating the sins of those closest to us. We must be totally intolerant to sin and give it no grounds.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 21, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

In other places he healed all of them. Here only a few. Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it.

You said Jesus could not heal and yet that is not what the text actually says in the event in Matthew 13, and Mark 6. Granted, I am not discounting that doing great miracles could have included healing (as I said before), but the point here is that the text does not exactly say what you said (in that you said “Jesus could not heal”). You are making an assumption upon the text. It interesting you are willing to make a large leap of assumption that I would not make and yet you are willing to not follow a logical conclusion in that God is still wrathful upon sin when it came to paying the price for the sins of the people that were in the body of Jesus.

You said:
That is because he did not receive his power back as thought he had been given it and gave it up and it was being returned to him. He received all authority and power in the first place after the resurrection.

So you believe that the Living Word (second person of the Trinity) who became flesh (as Jesus) never had any power as God before the Incarnation or before the foundation of the world? This is what you must be implying if you are saying that Jesus is receiving power in the first place after the resurrection. If so, that means that the Trinity was cripped in eternity's past before the Earth was created. Do you not know who created everything?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3).

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” (John 1:14).

You said:
That is false and unbiblical. No where does anyone say "Jesus suppressed his Omniscience." Sorry but that is not what it says. You make the mistake of thinking you know exactly how life was for Jesus on earth. You are in error.

Jesus Had Suppressed His Divine Attribute of Omniscience
(at the foundation of the world long before the “Incarnation”):

Jesus grew in wisdom as a child (Luke 2:52), and He did not know the day or the hour of His own return (Matthew 24:36).

The Bible alludes to the fact that Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience at the beginning of God’s creation.

How so?

Jesus says to God the Father,

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5).

I believe this glory is in reference to the "glory of the knowledge of the Lord."

For it is written:

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Jesus divine attribute of Omniscience was not suppressed before the world began. This is the glory that He shared with the Father at one time. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. His fate was already laid out ahead of time because God is 100% aware of everything that is going to happen.

When the world began, Jesus's divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed.

Jesus was perfected in obeying the Father and suffered unto death while He was limited in knowledge or while His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed. Jesus was able to learn how to obey while under suffering in a human body with limited knowledge. Jesus lived like a man so as to fulfill the type of Adam. For Adam was also limited in knowledge in the Garden before the fall.

It's why Jesus is a like type figure of Adam.

For Jesus is called the "Last Adam" in Scripture (See 1 Corinthians 15:22).

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus had power as God:
(During His earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).

You said:
Jesus said he does nothing on his own. Do you need the verse for that?
You forgot the verse before..
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

You are reading John 5 out of context and you are not believing John 5:21 at face value.

Lets read it.

16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.” (John 5:16-21).

First, verses 19 and verse 21 proves that Jesus has power as the Father has power.
However, when Jesus says he can do nothing of himself in verse 19, He is referring to authority and not ability or power. Jesus was acting completely within God the Father's will. For Jesus spoke everything that the Father commanded of Him (John 12:49). In verse 16, the Jews were upset that He appeared to break the Saturday Sabbath by healing on the Sabbath and for claiming to be equal with God. But Jesus is God, and He was not acting on His own authority alone but He was acting out what the Father was telling Him to do. This is why Jesus said in verse 19 that He could do nothing of Himself. For Jesus said He and the Father are one (John 10:30).

The problem is that you are not believing John 5:21. It says plainly that as the Father raises up from the dead and makes alive people, even so the Son (Jesus) can quicken (or make alive) whom He will. But again, if the Son were to quicken a person or raise them from the dead, it would only be in line with God the Father's authority and will and plan. For Jesus can do nothing of His own authority alone without God the Father. But seeing the Father and the Son are one (i.e. they are technically one God, i.e. the Trinity, see: 1 John 5:7 KJB); So therefore, the Father and the Son do not act contrary to each other. This is what Jesus means when He says He can do nothing without Him. If things are as you say, then verses 19 and 21 would not exist. Verse 21 especially makes it clear that Jesus can resurrect people just as God the Father can. That's what the verse plainly says. But you can deny this verse if you don't like it.

You said:
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Those who walk with the father can do these things and greater than what Jesus did can they do and the same is said of them. They can do nothing by themselves.
That is what I am talking about. But if one has and moves in the gifts one, knows that one is always subject to the Lord even in those things. We can do nothing on our own in these matters.

Not sure why you needed to bring up this point because I was never in disagreement with how only God can do miracles today. I was talking about the miraculous spiritual gifts given to the early church believers in 1 Corinthians 12. That is not the same thing as praying to receive a miracle based on God's will and choosing to do so.

I did not say you mentioned sinless perfection.

I did not mention that you said that I referred to sinless perfection.
Nowhere did I ever claim that you said I talked about this topic.
You said, I quote: “Some christians teach that personally are sinless.”
But seeing we cannot discuss this topic here in this section of the forums in any length or detail, we simply have to let this one go.

You said:
I said I know people who do and the only way to test that is to see if they are indeed sinless.

Yeah, but seeing we are not allowed to discuss this topic at any lengh in this section of the forums without getting points/warnings and eventual banning (by repeat offensives of such), it really does not help that you would bring up this topic (that is forbidden in this section of the forums).

You said:
I also did not ask for your testimony. Does it fit into the discussion? From your post above I gather there are theological subjects not allowed to discuss.

You said I quote: “If I may be so bold, it doesn’t look like you’ve seen many miracles.”
This was to illicit a response about my own personal life or to gain a testimony by me (of which I am not comfortable sharing with those who I consider hostile towards me involving the faith).

You said:
I asked about your position or understanding of faith and works and the above is more a theological treatise and not your thoughts. I don't see that you answered the question but no matter.

I do believe I did answer the question and I gave Scripture to back up my conclusion.
Let me simply clarify that using simple terms.

We are saved by God's grace through faith.
Faith first manifests itself as a belief in the Savior, and trusting in that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf.
After we are saved by God's grace, faith then manifests itself in the form of the “work of faith” (Which continues to access the grace of God). One great verse that teaches this is 1 John 1:7. But most Christians today appear to reject what this verse says because it does not align with popular Christianity that they have been taught by their pastors.

You said:
A good day to you!

Thank you. I hope you truly mean that. May the Lord's love shine upon you greatly today (Even if we disagree strongly on the Scriptures).

pescador · Mar 21, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

In other places he healed all of them. Here only a few. Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it.

That is because he did not receive his power back as thought he had been given it and gave it up and it was being returned to him. He received all authority and power in the first place after the resurrection. Jesus said he does nothing on his own. Do you need the verse for that?
That is false and unbiblical. No where does anyone say "Jesus suppressed his Omniscience." Sorry but that is not what it says. You make the mistake of thinking you know exactly how life was for Jesus on earth. You are in error.
You forgot the verse before..

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Those who walk with the father can do these things and greater than what Jesus did can they do and the same is said of them. They can do nothing by themselves.
That is what I am talking about. But if one has and moves in the gifts one, knows that one is always subject to the Lord even in those things. We can do nothing on our own in these matters.

I did not say you mentioned sinless perfection. I said I know people who do and the only way to test that is to see if they are indeed sinless. I also did not ask for your testimony. Does it fit into the discussion? From your post above I gather there are theological subjects not allowed to discuss.

I asked about your position or understanding of faith and works and the above is more a theological treatise and not your thoughts. I don't see that you answered the question but no matter.

A good day to you!

You wrote "Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it."

Are you actually saying that Jesus, part of the triune God, was unable to heal? Seriously? The creator of the world and all life was not capable of doing whatever He wanted?

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

Healing was/is dependent on the faith of the recipient. If the recipient has no faith, s/he cannot receive the healing that Jesus offered. The healing power was/is always there.

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2021

Fervent said:
When it boils down to it, for the seriousness of sin we cannot soft peddle. It is almost necessary to speak of a single sin as condemning when we are called to speak against sin. To not do so is to open the door for "acceptable sins" being excused rather than the perfection we are called to. Which is why in the west there is so much talk about how horrible the sins of others are while tolerating the sins of those closest to us. We must be totally intolerant to sin and give it no grounds.

I don't think portraying our Father as a wrathful tyrant who's looking for any little reason to revoke salvation unto fiery hell damnation, is the way to go about keeping his children in line.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 21, 2021

pescador said:
You wrote "Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it."

Are you actually saying that Jesus, part of the triune God, was unable to heal? Seriously? The creator of the world and all life was not capable of doing whatever He wanted?

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

Healing was/is dependent on the faith of the recipient. If the recipient has no faith, s/he cannot receive the healing that Jesus offered. The healing power was/is always there.

I agree. I was trying to say this, but you simplified it.

Thank you.

May God bless you this evening.

Fervent · Mar 21, 2021

MMXX said:
I don't think portraying our Father as a wrathful tyrant who's looking for any little reason to revoke salvation unto fiery hell damnation, is the way to go about keeping his children in line.

Fair enough, but it seems to me the western church has gone to the opposite extreme and turned Him into a doddering, senile old fool who is ambivalent to when His children place themselves in mortal danger and play with weapons.

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2021

Fervent said:
Fair enough, but it seems to me the western church has gone to the opposite extreme and turned Him into a doddering, senile old fool who is ambivalent to when His children place themselves in mortal danger and play with weapons.

So why combat one false image of God with another? What you're describing is Gnosticism. And I'd like to see anyone name Western Christian churches teaching Gnosticism. Really probably what's happening is they're turning from fire and brimstone preaching, back to a more original Orthodox God is love approach.

Fervent · Mar 21, 2021

MMXX said:
So why combat one false image of God with another? What you're describing is Gnosticism. And I'd like to see anyone name Western Christian churches teaching Gnosticism. Really probably what's happening is they're turning from fire and brimstone preaching, back to a more original Orthodox God is love approach.

I don't propose pushing either, but we should be just as willing to stress the unadulterated holiness of God as we are in stressing His unfathomable love. What I'm speaking of is not gnosticism but a permissive image of God that comes with the western idea that true love does not set conditions.

Ceallaigh · Mar 21, 2021

Fervent said:
I don't propose pushing either, but we should be just as willing to stress the unadulterated holiness of God as we are in stressing His unfathomable love. What I'm speaking of is not gnosticism but a permissive image of God that comes with the western idea that true love does not set conditions.

It's interesting to me that someone who's done extensive research into it says that Wrath of God is the prevailing teaching of the Western church from 10,000 pulpits. And a few here are claiming the opposite of that exists. And my guess is that's based on word of mouth rather than any actual research. I think what's really going on is there are pastors who are afraid everyone is going to start listening to Joel Osteen so they make it sound like there's an huge epidemic of secular churches and Christians that has to be combatted. I think this is a trick of the Devil the well intentioned are falling for to front-load and distort the Gospel.

Fervent · Mar 21, 2021

MMXX said:
It's interesting to me that someone who's done extensive research into it says that Wrath of God is the prevailing teaching of the Western church from 10,000 pulpits. And a few here are claiming the opposite of that exists. And my guess is that's based on word of mouth rather than any actual research. I think what's really going on is there are pastors who are afraid everyone is going to start listening to Joel Osteen so they make it sound like there's an huge epidemic of secular churches and Christians that has to be combatted. I think this is a trick of the Devil the well intentioned are falling for to front-load and distort the Gospel.

I can only judge based on what I've experienced, which is a plethora of people declaring to be Christians who emphasize how it is "free" and resist every attempt to call them to holy living. Every aspect of a discipled life is declared legalism, any insistence on obedience results in cries of Pharisaism. Even in churches that preach well there is a thread of aversion, especially among protestants, to speak of what the gospel enjoins us to. I'm not speaking of wrath, per se, as the believer need not fear wrath but of an unrelenting holiness that strives after perfection. Popular imaging places a divide between Jesus and the wrath of God and while that is not necessarily taught from the pulpits it is the fault of how He is spoken of in vacation bible school and other children's curriculum. Osteen and other preachers who promise worldly benefits ultimately only fool people whose god is their stomach so the fact that they're preaching for a profit is still to the benefit of the gospel so I, for one, say let more Joel Osteens rise up.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

pescador said:
You wrote "Now what other miracles do you think he could not do but healing was doable? It is clear he could not heal all of them. If God has no problem with Jesus being unable to heal all of them, I have no problem with it."

Are you actually saying that Jesus, part of the triune God, was unable to heal? Seriously? The creator of the world and all life was not capable of doing whatever He wanted?

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."

Healing was/is dependent on the faith of the recipient. If the recipient has no faith, s/he cannot receive the healing that Jesus offered. The healing power was/is always there.

I never said the healing power wasn’t there. I said he could not heal all. Now the scripture says this. Why? Because of their unbelief. That’s what it says. Not BibleH says Jesus could heal (although it clearly says only a few, not all) but other miracles he couldn’t do. I asked him what these others could be. Surely he must know what these things Jesus couldn’t do but normally did are.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

Fervent said:
I can only judge based on what I've experienced, which is a plethora of people declaring to be Christians who emphasize how it is "free" and resist every attempt to call them to holy living. Every aspect of a discipled life is declared legalism, any insistence on obedience results in cries of Pharisaism. Even in churches that preach well there is a thread of aversion, especially among protestants, to speak of what the gospel enjoins us to. I'm not speaking of wrath, per se, as the believer need not fear wrath but of an unrelenting holiness that strives after perfection. Popular imaging places a divide between Jesus and the wrath of God and while that is not necessarily taught from the pulpits it is the fault of how He is spoken of in vacation bible school and other children's curriculum. Osteen and other preachers who promise worldly benefits ultimately only fool people whose god is their stomach so the fact that they're preaching for a profit is still to the benefit of the gospel so I, for one, say let more Joel Osteens rise up.

I suppose if Jesus calmly and without any hint of being upset let alone wrathful says “depart from me” and they end up in everlasting fire, not being afraid of his wrath was true. He wasn’t wrathful as he judged and condemned a man.

Luke 12:5

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I agree. I was trying to say this, but you simplified it.

Thank you.

May God bless you this evening.

What were the other miracles Jesus usually did but couldn’t on account of their unbelief?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

Fervent said:
Fair enough, but it seems to me the western church has gone to the opposite extreme and turned Him into a doddering, senile old fool who is ambivalent to when His children place themselves in mortal danger and play with weapons.

Holiness or obeying God is just an “optional extra.” The main point of the modern gospel is get yourself a ticket to heaven no matter how you live after you’re assured you got it. The Pharisees also seemed to think they were “in” too, just a different reason.

Ceallaigh · Mar 22, 2021

Fervent said:
I can only judge based on what I've experienced, which is a plethora of people declaring to be Christians who emphasize how it is "free" and resist every attempt to call them to holy living. Every aspect of a discipled life is declared legalism, any insistence on obedience results in cries of Pharisaism. Even in churches that preach well there is a thread of aversion, especially among protestants, to speak of what the gospel enjoins us to. I'm not speaking of wrath, per se, as the believer need not fear wrath but of an unrelenting holiness that strives after perfection. Popular imaging places a divide between Jesus and the wrath of God and while that is not necessarily taught from the pulpits it is the fault of how He is spoken of in vacation bible school and other children's curriculum. Osteen and other preachers who promise worldly benefits ultimately only fool people whose god is their stomach so the fact that they're preaching for a profit is still to the benefit of the gospel so I, for one, say let more Joel Osteens rise up.

What you're saying sounds like the Free Grace vs Lordship Salvation controversy. Where Free Grace (pejoratively called cheap grace) is viewed as saying, Christians are free to sin like the devil (which is really Gnosticism). Whereas Lordship Salvation is viewed as Christians having work for and earn their salvation.

It seems to me that Free Grace is really that Salvation is 100% the Lord's exclusive domain. That outside of accepting it, man has zero influence over it. The objection to any input man has into it, is that implies there's a deficientcy in the Atonement of the Crucifixion and Resurrection that the believer has to fill. Yes technically according to Free Grace (as I understand it) a Christian can be trapped in sin and still be saved, but that's not something that's aspired to or recommend.

The thing is Lordship Salvation (or similar obdiance works doctrine) also provides a "license to sin" loophole since most proponents agree that if you confess your sins you get a clean slate every time. But with that it's once again man who gets put in control of salvation.

Ceallaigh · Mar 22, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
What were the other miracles Jesus usually did but couldn’t on account of their unbelief?

He couldn't give salvation to those who refused to believe He alone could give them salvation.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
You said Jesus could not heal and yet that is not what the text actually says in the event in Matthew 13, and Mark 6. Granted, I am not discounting that doing great miracles could have included healing (as I said before), but the point here is that the text does not exactly say what you said (in that you said “Jesus could not heal”). You are making an assumption upon the text. It interesting you are willing to make a large leap of assumption that I would not make and yet you are willing to not follow a logical conclusion in that God is still wrathful upon sin when it came to paying the price for the sins of the people that were in the body of Jesus.

I said Jesus could only heal a few and I find it disconcerting that you edit out my words to suit your desire. Jesus couldn’t heal many because of their unbelief. Now what are the miracles you think he couldn’t do but otherwise did? He usually healed ALL. This he couldn’t do.

So you believe that the Living Word (second person of the Trinity) who became flesh (as Jesus) never had any power as God before the Incarnation or before the foundation of the world? This is what you must be implying if you are saying that Jesus is receiving power in the first place after the resurrection. If so, that means that the Trinity was cripped in eternity's past before the Earth was created. Do you not know who created everything?

He said he only did what the Father was doing. He did not operate independently as you suggest.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3).

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” (John 1:14).

And?

Jesus Had Suppressed His Divine Attribute of Omniscience
(at the foundation of the world long before the “Incarnation”):

Scripture where it says Jesus utilized the psychological tactic of “suppressing” something, please. You assume you know what inner choices Jesus made. This I doubt.

Jesus grew in wisdom as a child (Luke 2:52), and He did not know the day or the hour of His own return (Matthew 24:36).

The Bible alludes to the fact that Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience at the beginning of God’s creation.

No it does not. You made that up.

Jesus says to God the Father,

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5).

I believe this glory is in reference to the "glory of the knowledge of the Lord."

You are wrong.

For it is written:

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

The earth means men.

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Jesus divine attribute of Omniscience was not suppressed before the world began. This is the glory that He shared with the Father at one time. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. His fate was already laid out ahead of time because God is 100% aware of everything that is going to happen.

When the world began, Jesus's divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed.

No where is any text. You do not understand the texts you quote.

Jesus was perfected in obeying the Father and suffered unto death while He was limited in knowledge or while His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed. Jesus was able to learn how to obey while under suffering in a human body with limited knowledge. Jesus lived like a man so as to fulfill the type of Adam. For Adam was also limited in knowledge in the Garden before the fall.

It's why Jesus is a like type figure of Adam.

For Jesus is called the "Last Adam" in Scripture (See 1 Corinthians 15:22).

No scripture supports your position that Jesus suppressed anything except temptation to sin.

You are reading John 5 out of context and you are not believing John 5:21 at face value.

Lets read it.

16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.” (John 5:16-21).

First, verses 19 and verse 21 proves that Jesus has power as the Father has power.

No, it supports that Jesus did nothing on his own power or direction.

However, when Jesus says he can do nothing of himself in verse 19, He is referring to authority and not ability or power. Jesus was acting completely within God the Father's will. For Jesus spoke everything that the Father commanded of Him (John 12:49). In verse 16, the Jews were upset that He appeared to break the Saturday Sabbath by healing on the Sabbath and for claiming to be equal with God. But Jesus is God, and He was not acting on His own authority alone but He was acting out what the Father was telling Him to do. This is why Jesus said in verse 19 that He could do nothing of Himself. For Jesus said He and the Father are one (John 10:30).

You are wrong. Jesus says he had the authority to forgive sins. He didn’t say he had the power.

The problem is that you are not believing John 5:21. It says plainly that as the Father raises up from the dead and makes alive people, even so the Son (Jesus) can quicken (or make alive) whom He will. But again, if the Son were to quicken a person or raise them from the dead, it would only be in line with God the Father's authority and will and plan. For Jesus can do nothing of His own authority alone without God the Father. But seeing the Father and the Son are one (i.e. they are technically one God, i.e. the Trinity, see: 1 John 5:7 KJB); So therefore, the Father and the Son do not act contrary to each other. This is what Jesus means when He says He can do nothing without Him. If things are as you say, then verses 19 and 21 would not exist. Verse 21 especially makes it clear that Jesus can resurrect people just as God the Father can. That's what the verse plainly says. But you can deny this verse if you don't like it.

Actually it’s you who refuse to believe the scripture as you think Jesus had power but no authority. I know by this you’ve never exercised the authority given us in Jesus or you would understand you got it backwards. I have moved in the authority of Jesus under his direction and miracles occurred. This is exactly as Jesus did while in earth.

Why do you think he operated in i dependent power or why would he even want to do do? It isn’t how things are in the Kingdom.

Not sure why you needed to bring up this point because I was never in disagreement with how only God can do miracles today. I was talking about the miraculous spiritual gifts given to the early church believers in 1 Corinthians 12. That is not the same thing as praying to receive a miracle based on God's will and choosing to do so.

Because your wording is strange and shows you’ve not experienced this.

I did not mention that you said that I referred to sinless perfection.
Nowhere did I ever claim that you said I talked about this topic.
You said, I quote: “Some christians teach that personally are sinless.”
But seeing we cannot discuss this topic here in this section of the forums in any length or detail, we simply have to let this one go.

Yeah, but seeing we are not allowed to discuss this topic at any lengh in this section of the forums without getting points/warnings and eventual banning (by repeat offensives of such), it really does not help that you would bring up this topic (that is forbidden in this section of the forums).

You said I quote: “If I may be so bold, it doesn’t look like you’ve seen many miracles.”
This was to illicit a response about my own personal life or to gain a testimony by me (of which I am not comfortable sharing with those who I consider hostile towards me involving the faith).

Not at all. It was said because you have a thinking on the matter that doesn’t match reality. Jesus didn’t pray for miracles and neither did his followers. It doesn’t work like that.

I do believe I did answer the question and I gave Scripture to back up my conclusion.
Let me simply clarify that using simple terms.

We are saved by God's grace through faith.
Faith first manifests itself as a belief in the Savior, and trusting in that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf.
After we are saved by God's grace, faith then manifests itself in the form of the “work of faith” (Which continues to access the grace of God). One great verse that teaches this is 1 John 1:7. But most Christians today appear to reject what this verse says because it does not align with popular Christianity that they have been taught by their pastors.

Oj thanks. I agree.

Thank you. I hope you truly mean that. May the Lord's love shine upon you greatly today (Even if we disagree strongly on the Scriptures).

Amen!!

MMXX said:
What you're saying sounds like the Free Grace vs Lordship Salvation controversy. Where Free Grace (pejoratively called cheap grace) is viewed as saying, Christians are free to sin like the devil (which is really Gnosticism). Whereas Lordship Salvation is viewed as Christians having work for and earn their salvation.

It seems to me that Free Grace is really that Salvation is 100% the Lord's exclusive domain. That outside of accepting it, man has zero influence over it. The objection to any input man has into it, is that implies there's a deficientcy in the Atonement of the Crucifixion and Resurrection that the believer has to fill. Yes technically according to Free Grace (as I understand it) a Christian can be trapped in sin and still be saved, but that's not something that's aspired to or recommend.

The thing is Lordship Salvation (or similar obdiance works doctrine) also provides a "license to sin" loophole since most proponents agree that if you confess your sins you get a clean slate every time. But with that it's once again man who gets put in control of salvation.

You, btw, pejoratively call “Lordship salvation” having towork for your salvation. The term is a misnomer. It is actually “Relationship Salvation.” That is, we feel we must maintain a relationship with the Lord. This is something your theology relieves you of having to do. Or alternatively, you believe you have to do nothing at all as he is responsible for the two way relationship. Is that correct? If not please tell me what part you play (have to do) in the matter.

How do you deal with the servant (saved) who hid what the master had given him and did nothing?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

Bible H,
The problem in your view is this. You think you know what Jesus experienced in taking on human form. That is, you think you have inside and almost psychological insight as to what he thought and the mental choices he made. I am very sure you are wrong.

Jesus did not desire independent power. That is what the Enemy desires. His followers didn’t desire independent power either. When observers started to credit his apostles with independent power their denial of this was strong. That’s because it’s just not true and those who really walk with him whereby he heals and affects miracles for them KNOW it isn’t by anything they possess that these acts of Gods power transpire.

Those who walk with God closely desire to understand and know Him, not impress people. They don’t desire independence but dependence.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 22, 2021

MMXX said:
He couldn't give salvation to those who refused to believe He alone could give them salvation.

No one in the Bible who was there ever referred to Jesus giving a person standing in front of him salvation. They didn’t refer to salvation as a miracle either. But I wasn’t asking you so thanks for the answer. I do find it strange that none could be saved, a weighty matter and never called a miracle, whereas a few could have their illnesses resolved, a minor matter in comparison.

God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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May God be with you and bless you.

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May God be with you and bless you.

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May God be with you and bless you.

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