The moral nature of God and his plan

Ever the rebellious man cries out against God:

Truthsearcher1 said:

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise.

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Where does the Bible state that was God’s omniscient plan?

My Bible merely states that God DID

1. Create humans
2. Place them in paradise
3. Give them a command.

Truthsearcher1 said:

But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled.

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I agree. Adam and Eve living in the garden was not God’s ultimate plan. I agree that God’s ultimate plan was greater.

Where does the Bible speak of God “sitting back and watching” anything? God is an active participant, the prime force and acting according to the council of His own will when it comes to the fulfillment of His plan. It is also God that destroys the old heaven and earth and it is God that creates the new Heaven and Earth.

The purpose of God’s plan is not the creation of the heaven and the earth. As you pointed out, God already did that once. So what is DIFFERENT in the end from the beginning of the story? Who and what has changed?

There you will find the answer to “Why?”

Truthsearcher1 said:

He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

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I agree. God knows the end from the beginning so everything is part of His plan.

Truthsearcher1 said:

You literally didn't answer anything. Why does God's omniscience (Psalm 139:4) allow for the downfall of mankind?

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Are you omniscient? If not, then why question an omniscient being's master plan, one which we do not know the full details? Would it be wise to challenge the family doctor because of research on the internet?

This is where faith comes in. Sounds like a cop-out, I understand, but this is how God works (1 Corinthians 1:18-25, Isaiah 55:8-9). God is the Creator, He makes all the rules (Genesis 1:1-2:25, Exodus 20:1-17, Galatians 5:13-26, John 3:16, Romans 13:8-10).

Alternate history stories are pretty interesting. They often involve well-intentioned time travellers changing history for the worse because of unforeseen consequences (Proverbs 14:12, 16:18, 21:2).


On May 1, 2021, at roughly 12:25 AM Eastern Time, I have added Scripture to these disclaimers, and am planning to continue doing so (John 13:1-17, Luke 16:1-15, Matthew 7:13-29). My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed towards selfishness.

On March 21, 2021, at roughly 9:45 AM Eastern Time, I have added a detail on the last paragraph. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed towards selfishness.

Truthsearcher1 said:

You literally didn't answer anything. Why does God's omniscience (Psalm 139:4) allow for the downfall of mankind? If God is so good, why did he test our free will through disobedience, rather than some other harmless way?

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Since it is so difficult to look it up for yourself, here is the answer already hinted at:

Your question was anticipated two millennia ago and answered by Paul. Do you have any specific questions, or merely object to God being “unfair”?

Truthsearcher1 said:

Why does God's omniscience (Psalm 139:4) allow for the downfall of mankind?

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Because of God’s omniscience, God knows all of the plans that were possible. God knows the benefits of each of those possible plans. God knows the cost of each of those possible plans. Given that complete and perfect knowledge, God chose THE ONE PLAN that was “perfect” according to the standards of His perfect righteousness and followed the council of His own will in causing the perfect plan to be the plan to unfold in human reality (which He also created).

One catechism chose to word it this way ... “for our good and His glory”. That is why God allows what He allows.

Truthsearcher1 said:

I believe, if you look at God's purpose for his creation morally, it's actually quite scary and insidiously evil (if we consider he is a good God). And I am also factoring in his omniscience (ultimate knowledge) with our free will.

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise. But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled. He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

What exactly is the point in that? Did he really need to create us knowing we would sin just so he could recreate everything anyway? I think either God made it too complicated for himself, or he just needs to keep the cycle of creation and destruction in perpetual motion, and he used our imperfect tendencies to sin as a key for that.

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?

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I hear you. Your post reminds me of...

"For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all." Romans 11:32

Somebody should be able to ask challenging questions, without Christians getting all snarky with them. Jesus didn't tell us to be rude.

Truthsearcher1 said:

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?

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Adam and Eve were created “very good”. They were created honor him as God and give thanks [Romans 1:18-21]. They were created to be His possession and His servants.

In Christ and the redemption, we became more than servants ... we are the Children of God and the Bride of Christ.

***

Adam walked with God in the garden in the cool of the day before the fall.
After the redemption, the Holy Spirit (God himself) dwells within us and unites us with the Father and Son even as the members of the Godhead are united with each other.

***

Before the fall, Adam knew he was accepted by God because he was God’s creation. Under the LAW, men learned that we could be forgiven if we are obedient. With the coming of Christ, men discovered that we are loved by God even in our sin; we are loved by God more than He loves His own life; we are loved as His precious children and washed whiter than snow.

***

Before the fall, God lived in heaven and man lived on Earth. We were separated. God might briefly visit us, but we were never really together.

After Jesus returns, Revelation does not describe a recreation of the Paradise of Genesis 1-3. It describes a radical new creation “Heaven and Earth” combined into one place. God LIVES in the center and illuminates all of His creation. We dwell in a giant jewel city surrounding God with the paradise garden surrounding the city. There is no separation between God and man ... we will finally be together.

Compare the eternity of the creature obedient to its creator living in a park and occasionally being visited by a God that accepts us for our obedience (Genesis) to the Children of God living with a Father that loves us unconditionally and wants to be with us more than all of creation and even His own life (Revelation).

Which is the “better” plan?

MMXX said:

Somebody should be able to ask challenging questions, without Christians getting all snarky with them. Jesus didn't tell us to be rude.

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If I came across as snarky, I do apologize.

MMXX said:

Somebody should be able to ask challenging questions, without Christians getting all snarky with them. Jesus didn't tell us to be rude.

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Are you going to actually answer the OP?

Rene Loup said:

If I came across as snarky, I do apologize.

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Naw, it was probably me.

I am more suspicious of “honest questions” posted to Christians by non-Christians on Christian sites.

The typical flow is:

1. Question.
   
   
2. Answer.
   
   
3. Response explaining why the answer is wrong.

atpollard said:

Naw, it was probably me.

I am more suspicious of “honest questions” posted to Christians by non-Christians on Christian sites.

The typical flow is:

1. Question.
   
   
2. Answer.
   
   
3. Response explaining why the answer is wrong.

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For what it's worth, it strikes me as a legitimate question without an obvious answer.

public hermit said:

For what it's worth, it strikes me as a legitimate question without an obvious answer.

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Without a traditional Christian answer. One solution is that God is not omniscient. Another is that the god of the universe is a jerk. (Supposing a god exists; arguendo.)

public hermit said:

For what it's worth, it strikes me as a legitimate question without an obvious answer.

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Yeah, it could well be a legitimate question.
(Although I think Paul DID answer it).

With respect to my bad attitude, like the saying goes “once bitten, twice shy”.

Tinker Grey said:

Without a traditional Christian answer. One solution is that God is not omniscient. Another is that the god of the universe is a jerk. (Supposing a god exists; arguendo.)

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Or remove one of the other OMNI traits.

God is not OMNIPOTENT, and planned better but is constantly thwarted by His “short arms”.

God is not OMNIPRESENT, and planned on stopping it, but had to be somewhere else.

However, this is about where I stop caring about the discussion and leave it to atheists and apologists to beat at the air.

atpollard said:

Or remove one of the other OMNI traits.

God is not OMNIPOTENT, and planned better but is constantly thwarted by His “short arms”.

God is not OMNIPRESENT, and planned on stopping it, but had to be somewhere else.

However, this is about where I stop caring about the discussion and leave it to atheists and apologists to beat at the air.

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Hey, dude. I have no dog in this fight.

God is the truth but if we believe lies then such will cause chaos, so believing lies about God, like you do, that is the problem. The truth disobeyed with lies causes evil, which God did not create, but warned about, but we people do. So blaming God for us choosing to believe lies is absurd from a truth perspective.

That is the same with knowing. The truth knows what the truth did, does and what the truth will do in the future. It are lies that distort the truth, but the truth knows that lies, once exposed, become meaningless and unbelievable.

So when you think about God think about the fact that God is the truth and that God is love and then do your analyses again and you will find that you get completely different answers about God and His creation that what you do now.

Tinker Grey said:

Without a traditional Christian answer. One solution is that God is not omniscient. Another is that the god of the universe is a jerk. (Supposing a god exists; arguendo.)

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True. Open Theism holds to the notion that the future is open for God just as it is for us. And, Calvin's God is a jerk.