The moral nature of God and his plan

atpollard

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Hey, dude. I have no dog in this fight.
I know. Your post was polite and made a good point (as a logical argument).

I just meant that certain discussions attract packs of rabid “atheist” and “Christian” debaters that will quickly drag any topic into well worn territory. That ain’t my idea of fun or interesting.
 
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atpollard

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And, Calvin's God is a jerk.
Never met him, but at least the God of Reformed Theology and Particular Baptists is still Sovereign, having refused to surrender His Biblical Omnipotence over to the lie of Genesis 3:4-5 like the golden calf of so many modern Christians.
 
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public hermit

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I know. Your post was polite and made a good point (as a logical argument).

I just meant that certain discussions attract packs of rabid “atheist” and “Christian” debaters that will quickly drag any topic into well worn territory. That ain’t my idea of fun or interesting.

Shouldnt we, as Christians, be willing to admit there are things we don't know? Or, at least, be willing to agree with the legitimate critiques of atheists? I don't know what we have to gain by ignoring or giving a "hand wave" to either one. The OP presented a legitimate issue with certain conceptions of God, the first way forward is acknowledgment, or so it seems to me.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I believe, if you look at God's purpose for his creation morally, it's actually quite scary and insidiously evil (if we consider he is a good God). And I am also factoring in his omniscience (ultimate knowledge) with our free will.

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise. But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled. He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

What exactly is the point in that? Did he really need to create us knowing we would sin just so he could recreate everything anyway? I think either God made it too complicated for himself, or he just needs to keep the cycle of creation and destruction in perpetual motion, and he used our imperfect tendencies to sin as a key for that.

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?

When Job questioned God as to the way He operates, God questioned Job back and said, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Job 38:4. God then continued for a few chapters regarding the complexity of His creation. I'm sure a really good apologist could give you a better answer, but unfortunately I'm not a really good apologist.
 
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disciple Clint

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I believe, if you look at God's purpose for his creation morally, it's actually quite scary and insidiously evil (if we consider he is a good God). And I am also factoring in his omniscience (ultimate knowledge) with our free will.

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise. But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled. He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

What exactly is the point in that? Did he really need to create us knowing we would sin just so he could recreate everything anyway? I think either God made it too complicated for himself, or he just needs to keep the cycle of creation and destruction in perpetual motion, and he used our imperfect tendencies to sin as a key for that.

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?
Well since it is impossible to know the mind of God, I will take a guess that He knew that man does not value anything until he no longer has it, and man appreciates thing more when he has to make an effort resulting in achievement. So God showed us what life could be like and then He left it up to us to decide if we wanted to live with Him forever in love and harmony. By the way God did not make man to obey Him, that would have been easy for Him, He made man so that man could decide what he wanted and exercise free will.
 
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atpollard

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Shouldnt we, as Christians, be willing to admit there are things we don't know? Or, at least, be willing to agree with the legitimate critiques of atheists? I don't know what we have to gain by ignoring or giving a "hand wave" to either one. The OP presented a legitimate issue with certain conceptions of God, the first way forward is acknowledgment, or so it seems to me.
Then stop critiquing me and answer the OP.

I already did.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I believe, if you look at God's purpose for his creation morally, it's actually quite scary and insidiously evil (if we consider he is a good God). And I am also factoring in his omniscience (ultimate knowledge) with our free will.

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise. But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled. He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

What exactly is the point in that? Did he really need to create us knowing we would sin just so he could recreate everything anyway? I think either God made it too complicated for himself, or he just needs to keep the cycle of creation and destruction in perpetual motion, and he used our imperfect tendencies to sin as a key for that.

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?
Welcome.
God is not the creator of evil. If you start with that understanding and work yourself through the problem you will find the real truth of His Character. Love. Ask yourself, can it really be that hard to obey one rule? "Do not eat of this tree". Apparently they did not love Him back.
 
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Rachel20

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Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?

I hold to the great cosmic lesson theory, which I make up as I go along :) I'm not sure proving we had free will was the point, since what we learned from the fall was vastly more - about God's love, his mercy, about ourselves - things we could have learned otherwise from what means? Even the angels are learning per scripture.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I believe, if you look at God's purpose for his creation morally, it's actually quite scary and insidiously evil (if we consider he is a good God). And I am also factoring in his omniscience (ultimate knowledge) with our free will.

According to the bible, God's omniscient plan was to create humans to supposedly obey him and thus live in paradise. But that of course was not his greater plan. He knew we would sin, and we did. And so his greater plan before he created us, was for us to disobey him, sit back and watch the absolute destruction of the world, so that the rebirth of heaven and earth would be fulfilled. He literally knew this would happen before creation, so it was all part of his plan.

What exactly is the point in that? Did he really need to create us knowing we would sin just so he could recreate everything anyway? I think either God made it too complicated for himself, or he just needs to keep the cycle of creation and destruction in perpetual motion, and he used our imperfect tendencies to sin as a key for that.

Was this really God's only way of creation? Did we have to be tempted? Did he have to create the fruit that would result in man's failure? Was God's test necessary to prove we have free will, or would it be possible to live in paradise with free will, without being tested for it?

Why is this important to anyone but the 'vessels of honor'?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Since it is so difficult to look it up for yourself, here is the answer already hinted at:

[Rom 9:19-26 KJV] 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Your question was anticipated two millennia ago and answered by Paul. Do you have any specific questions, or merely object to God being “unfair”?

Hosea is not referring to the real gentiles but to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was "sent only".
 
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atpollard

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Hosea is not referring to the real gentiles but to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was "sent only".
You will have to take that up with the Apostle Paul.
I am unwilling to tell God that the Holy Spirit misinterpreted scripture when He inspired an Apostle to quote from Hosea to make a point in Romans.

My money is on “God got it right”.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You will have to take that up with the Apostle Paul.
I am unwilling to tell God that the Holy Spirit misinterpreted scripture when He inspired an Apostle to quote from Hosea to make a point in Romans.

My money is on “God got it right”.

Just trying to be helpful. :holy:
 
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durangodawood

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Well since it is impossible to know the mind of God, I will take a guess....
I'm sympathetic to this answer because it restricts is from claims about the mind of God such as "He is omniscient", or "He is good".

....He made man so that man could decide what he wanted and exercise free will.
I knew it couldnt last long.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sorry if I misunderstood ... I don't really do "subtle". ;)

No problem. I often put out outrageous interpretations that often get a similar response.
 
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disciple Clint

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I'm sympathetic to this answer because it restricts is from claims about the mind of God such as "He is omniscient", or "He is good".


I knew it couldnt last long.
It will last forever, God does not change.
 
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