When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

Saint Steven · Mar 18, 2021

chad kincham said:
Exegete that verse, and you find that it’s not about merely backsliding into sin - this passage is about former believers that have lost their faith completely - thus they can’t be renewed unto repentance again, because only believers will repent of their sins if they’ve backslidden.

Obviously that requires faith, and they’ve lost theirs and have completely apostacized into unbelief.

My contention is that we cannot undo by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place. Which makes me OSAS, I suppose. But I do allow for reprobation by God of an apostate. An exceedingly rare occurrence. IMHO

The love that saves us is unconditional. Therefore, the love that keeps us is unconditional. It's not about us. It never was. Otherwise we're all sunk.

Saint Steven · Mar 18, 2021

RDKirk said:
"It is impossible for those .... to be brought back to repentance."

Clearly, it's impossible for someone...because the scripture says it right there.

Now, we could say that "with God all things are possible," and those who believe in universal salvation would assert that God will change everyone's heart, whether they're willing to be changed or not.

From what I see in scripture, though, God will give people what they want, and if they want no part of Him, he will give them no part of Him.

Most significantly, it is clear that God takes what a person knows of Him into account in His judgment. In this case, the writer of Hebrews hammers home the assertion of a person who is not at all ignorant of God, and Paul tells us in Romans that God will give such people over to delusion.

If--having truly known God--they decide they don't want God, then they won't get God.

That's a good response. Especially that it is possible with God even when it's not possible for us. (He will do it)

In reference to Universalism... I think that anyone who doesn't want God hasn't met him yet. I'm pretty sure he is irresistible. Those who finally come to him will do so willingly.

Even the saved will need a tune-up in this regard.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Direct Driver · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
In order to determine what is the “light” and what is the “darknesss,” we have to define them according to what the Bible says and not in what we want them to say.

What is the light according to the apostle John?

#1. God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5).

So God is the light.

So when we read in 1 John 1:7 that says...“if we walk in the light as He is in the light,” it is referring to how if we walk in God the Father [the light] as He [Christ] is in [the light] God the Father. That is what 1 John 1:7 is saying. For we read in the proceeding context about how John and the others have fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

#1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
#2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you
that eternal life, which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us; )
#3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:1-3).

What is the darkness according to the apostle John?

#1. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth (1 John 1:6). This is similiar to 1 John 2:4. Please Read it.
#2. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now (1 John 2:9).
#3. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21).

What is darkness according to the rest of the Bible?

#1. but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness (Luke 11:34).
#2. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11).

Darkness is sin and or hating your brother according to the Bible.

Okay, so taking this all into account, we must understand that if we walk in the light of God the Father, as He (Christ) is in God the Father (Who is the light), we will love our brother (1 John 2:9-11 cf. 1 John 3:10), and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Darkness is hating our brother. So if we hate our brother and say we have fellowship with God, we lie and do not the truth. For loving our brother is a commandment (1 John 3:23). This is why 1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments. This is why 1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

We sort of agree, but again, I think you are over-thinking it. If you are saved, you are walking in the light. If you are not saved, you are not walking in the light. And that is "X". And the Y axis is the part that reveals what X axis you are on.

Direct Driver · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So can you hate your brother (or not love your brother) and still say that you walk in the light of God?

Can you still have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin even if you hate your brother or you do not love him?

If you say... “No” then this means I am correct and you need to meet the condition of loving your brother in order to abide under the condition of walking in the light (abiding in God the Father as HE (Christ) abides in the light, or God the Father) in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin. This means it is more than just a belief alone in Jesus to have the blood cleanse you. You need to make sure you are continually loving your brother so as to walk in the light of God and have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin.

If you say... “Yes” then you would be speaking against the truth of 1 John 1:6 that states: “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:” and you would be speaking against 1 John 2:9 that says, “He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.”

Two questions:
1. Can works save you?
2. Conversely, can works cause you to lose your salvation?

Hint: Once you've answered one, you've answered the other. And that is your personal theology.

Direct Driver · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
God the Father and Jesus can make their abode (i.e. His home) in a person if they keep the words of Jesus. For it is written:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).

And if a man doesn't, he will experience a certain level of hell on earth, but is still saved. Hence the "salted with fire". Actions have consequences. But actions don't get you removed from the will. Lack of belief gets you removed from the will.

A christian may be God's "bad son", but he's in the will until he denies his father outright. I see that as the unforgivable sin. And one reason it is is because you won't return, partly because it looks like he won't compel you. You have as much chance of coming back as Nancy Pelosi has of becoming a Trump fan.

Nova2216 · Mar 18, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
Any time you sin, it's a backslide. However, with "backsliding" there is always repentance and seeking forgiveness. Per Hebrews 10:26-27, I do not believe it becomes "Apostasy" or "falling away" until one sins, knows it's a sin, agrees it's a sin, but has no desire to repent or seek forgiveness for it for reasons that are their own.

One may fall away without agreeing his error is sin.

Sometimes men in sin need to be reminded to repent. (or instructed)

Notice (Luke 17:3,4) (Mt.18:15-17) (Gal. 6:1,2).

Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Mt 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Kenny'sID · Mar 18, 2021

Jeshu said:
This does not mean that we cannot conquer certain sins, for with Christ we sure can, but it does mean that we will fall for other sins at times we may battle a certain sin for years, i know i have.

Self righteousness, for example, has been a huge sin in Christian Churches, where people look at other peoples sin and despise and judge them because of it, and cannot give them grace like our Lord does.

It is only when we become true sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father that we can give grace to the sinners around us.

I agree, and have come very close to conquering some, while other, all but conquered.

The self rightiousness thing can often be misunderstood, I mean we simply tell other Christians what we are supposed to do/how we are to act, and if they don't like it, we become self rightous to them. With some atheists we are self rightous for simply claiming to be christian.

Danthemailman · Mar 18, 2021

Direct Driver said:
We sort of agree, but again, I think you are over-thinking it. If you are saved, you are walking in the light. If you are not saved, you are not walking in the light. And that is "X". And the Y axis is the part that reveals what X axis you are on.

Amen! 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil."

spiritfilledjm · Mar 18, 2021

Nova2216 said:
One may fall away without agreeing his error is sin.

Sometimes men in sin need to be reminded to repent. (or instructed)

Notice (Luke 17:3,4) (Mt.18:15-17) (Gal. 6:1,2).

Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Mt 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

True

Clare73 · Mar 18, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Hi, Paul,
Was asked to post the following here:

Mark Quayle said:
I assume, then, you mean it always refers to the same thing, in Scripture? Apostasy. Does it also mean, 'fallen from grace"?

Clare73 said: No, there are many ways to "fall away." Only some apply to "religious apostasy;" i.e., revolt, rebellion, defection, to forsake, fall away:
apostasia - defection, revolt, apostasy, Acts 21:21;
2 Thessalonians 2:3
ekpipto - to fall out, 2 Peter 3:17
parapipto - to fall away from, Hebrews 6:6
aphistemi - to withdraw from, 1 Timothy 4:1
parabaino - to fall, transgress, Acts 1:25

"Fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) in Paul's usage is simply making works of the law necessary for justification/salvation. The error can be corrected. If not, it is not saving faith.

Ok so define it. What exactly is Apostasy? And what are the implications for the end of the Elect?

True faith does not apostasize. The elect do not apostasize permanently, only false faith apostasizes permanently.
If any elect "fall away," it may be because their faith is not yet a true faith, maybe just intellectual assent, with no Holy Spirit heart work. But there will be a Holy Spirit heart work that will bring the elect to true faith, which true faith does not apostasize.

Mark Quayle · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But here is the problem. Do you believe that King David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder? Do you believe that if a Christian is still saved if they looked at a woman in lust, and they got hit by a bus and died without getting a chance to confess of their sin?

Already dealt with, ad nauseum. But, once again: The Elect will not finally become non-Elect. God's election is sure. Are you going to tell Christ that he died in vain for someone? Are you going to tell God he is unable to keep those he chose?

Are you going to tell God he made a mistake in choosing someone to be that particular member of the Bride of Christ?

Mark Quayle · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
How many ways is there to correctly read a blueprint for an aircraft? There is only one way. The Bible uses some complicated language. I do get that. But many times it does speak plainly, as well. Again, what does “alive AGAIN” mean to you in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Do you not realize that this was not account about rejecting the Father but this was of the result of his living it up with prostitutes? The Parable mentions how he spent his inheritance on prostitutes. What about James 5:19-20? How do you explain that plain and easy to understand passage? Again, you need to erase certain parts of the Bible says in order for your belief to be true. So yeah, I am not buying your sin and still be saved gospel. A little bit of sin is with the thinking one is saved by a belief alone in Jesus is just as bad as committing a lot of sin while one thinks they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus.

Are you telling us that when a person, regenerated and inhabited by the Spirit of God, who turns away for however short a time, from the fellowship of the Spirit, that the Spirit must then depart from him? (John 3) the Spirit does not depend on anyone else's choices to decide what it will do. It goes where it will.

Halbhh · Mar 18, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Perhaps this was already said, but if someone has no longer has any guilt about doing serious wrongs, so that they feel no urge to confess when they do wrongs such as hating others or speaking false witness against others or such -- when there is no guilt -- then it would seem they are in the state of 'death', to use the wording our Lord used in Luke chapter 15 about the prodigal before he repented. We don't know who might with enough suffering still turn and repent. So, we cannot ever be the ones who guage who might repent and who will not, since we ourselves are not omniscient enough to truly know that about others. Speculating, it might be those that do suffer are the ones who really have a chance to turn and repent. Someone not even suffering, once enough time has passed, decades, would perhaps be in greater danger then. But again, we can't even gauge that well, again because we are not omniscient. People often quietly suffer and those around them don't even know.

Anthony2019 · Mar 18, 2021

My understanding is that God's grace covers all of our sins, as long as we abide in His love and cling to His mercy.
We are all sinners and even though we have received God's grace, many of us continue to sin and sometimes greatly. None of us is blameless and that includes both you and I. As human beings, we are weak and frail. We make many mistakes. Yet our Lord still welcomes us most lovingly and gently, cordially and patiently, however far we have strayed and erred, and He will do so, time and time again.
Our lives may be frantic and disorderly, and during our path through life we may even have given up all hope and faith. Yet the kind words of our Lord given to the thief on the cross, shows us how much how far and how much our Lord wants to reach each and everyone of us. "Today you will be with me in paradise". What a compliment, how absolutely caring and loving. Wherever you are and however you are feeling, that is our Lord's message to you. Whoever you are and whatever struggle you are going through, you are so richly and intimately loved. Our Lord bleeding to death upon the cross wants to throw his arms around you, a sinner so vile and helpless, because he absolutely loves you and wants you to be with Him.

Silverback · Mar 18, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Whenever a person feels convicted of his sin, he may turn to God for Thanksgiving and repentence. Remember "how many times shall I forgive..7 kimes 70". We will all sin daily in thought, word, and deed, and in the things we have done, and in the things we have left undone, both willingly, and unwillingly. If heaven is a place for non sinners, it will be empty, lights out no one home. Christ paid our sin debt, their is no further atonement, when God sees us it's through the blood of Christ. Does that mean go, sin, have a good time?...no, we are called to lead holy lives, but we will still daily sin, it's what Martin Luther called the " old man on our back" when we come to God for forgiveness, we of course have to be contrite, and sincere. Forgiveness is always available to the sincerely repentant.

Anything anyone adds to that is simply trying to mix works into the situation, and it will confuse people, and soon they will start to despair, and many will fall away.

Bottom line...our righteousness is as filthy rags, there are none who does good, no not one, the just shall live by faith, all sin and fall short of the glory of God....and John 3:16 which say's it all.

Jeshu · Mar 18, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
I mean we simply tell other Christians what we are supposed to do/how we are to act, and if they don't like it, we become self rightous to them.

i have experienced a lot of self righteousness behaviour from my own fellow believers in Church. As someone with a mental illness people in Church have judged me, and gossiped about me, and some even sought to have me put under Church discipline, all because i struggled with a mental illness. These same people i have seen judge and/or gossip about other believers. Over the years that i have supported mentally ill people on these forums i have spoken to dozens of believers who experienced the same treatment.

A lot of Christian forget that scripture teaches us to only ever speak the truth of Scripture in love, not in judgement or condemning spirit, but in the holy Spirit.

i think that is where the problem lays.

Taodeching · Mar 18, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Post number 7 gives the best answer When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

Salvation is not a one and done thing, it is a life long process

Kenny'sID · Mar 18, 2021

Jeshu said:
i have experienced a lot of self righteousness behaviour from my own fellow believers in Church. As someone with a mental illness people in Church have judged me, and gossiped about me, and some even sought to have me put under Church discipline, all because i struggled with a mental illness. These same people i have seen judge and/or gossip about other believers. Over the years that i have supported mentally ill people on these forums i have spoken to dozens of believers who experienced the same treatment.

A lot of Christian forget that scripture teaches us to only ever speak the truth of Scripture in love, not in judgement or condemning spirit, but in the holy Spirit.

i think that is where the problem lays.

I'm sorry to hear that, and I know the self righteous certianly do exist, and aren't much fun to be around.

I've been accused of it here, and for no othr reason than sticking with my beliefs, so I suppose that's the reason I brought it up.

ViaCrucis · Mar 18, 2021

Dorothy Mae · Mar 18, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

It is somewhat like asking how often can a married person cheat on their spouse before the marriage is over. Or how many bad choices can a person make in a relationship before it is over. What is the number? Or like how many times do I have to forgive my brother who turns and asks forgiveness?

When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

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