When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

[ozso]

Salvation isn't like a light switch that we can flick off and on with every daily sin and confession. Saved - unsaved - saved - unsaved - saved. It doesn't work that way. It takes very little to become born again into eternal life, however it takes a lot to become unborn into death. If such a thing is even possible. Again it's not everlasting life - death - everlasting life - death - everlasting life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The way you asked this demonstrates a category error. Apostacy is the abandonment of the faith, which obviously wouldn't apply to one who recognizes that he commited a sin, repents of it, and by confessing asks God to help him sin no more. An apostate would think "yeah, so what, I didn't do anything wrong, go kick rocks".

FINALLY a good answer! But, FWIW, Paulomycin, I believe, made the category error on purpose --he is not under the belief that the Elect will lose their salvation, nor that the internal conflict he described constitutes Apostasy. What he did drew out of those replying, human reasoning concerning the will of man, with very little reference to what the Spirit has to do with any of this.

 

[ozso]

FINALLY a good answer! But, FWIW, Paulomycin, I believe, made the category error on purpose --he is not under the belief that the Elect will lose their salvation, nor that the internal conflict he described constitutes Apostasy. What he did drew out of those replying, human reasoning concerning the will of man, with very little reference to what the Spirit has to do with any of this.

I've asked the question before in threads like this, "where's the Holy Spirit in this?". I got replies about how man can quench the Spirit and so on. It always falls onto the will of man.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I address POTS because that is what Calvinists believe and you are a Calvinist. So if I am going to be able to have a discussion with you on apostasy or confessing sin, we first need to understand what POTS is really saying. POTS is saying that GOD is making you to persevere and it really is not up to you. If this is not the case, then you would be a Conditional Salvationist like me. In other words, POTS is not about Conditional Salvation. Conditional Salvation is saying that I have to receive Jesus and believe the gospel, and I have to continue in the faith and continue in God's grace. God is not going to force me to do any of these things. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Yes, God may nudge me and or influence me to a degree, but He will not force His salvation upon me in any way. POTS is saying that the way of salvation is guaranteed. No need to worry about anything. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in POTS.

You are getting better at this! I see your strawman is beginning to look rather set upon!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Paul makes clear that AFTERwe have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 Paul warns above, that having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

I was with you right up to your last paragraph. There, you give no credit to God for keeping us. I don't in the least dispute that we MUST work, MUST walk after the Spirit --in short, that we must DO these things, and will to do them. But like with the cause of faith, it is the Spirit in us that causes our hearts to choose these things, to continue to pursue Christ.

This is not done of our own strength, nor even our own gratefulness, intelligence nor integrity. "Apart from me you can do nothing"

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've asked the question before in threads like this, "where's the Holy Spirit in this?". I got replies about how man can quench the Spirit and so on. It always falls onto the will of man.

Exactly, and with warnings about heresy, and admonishments, and even the logic that if we believe the Holy Spirit is the one who does this in us, there is motivation to work, obey or pursue Christ, etc etc.

When it says, "the love of Christ constrains us", it is not just making an appeal to gratefulness producing 'returned love', but I think a direct reference to the Spirit in us. "Apart from me, you can do nothing."

 

[chad kincham]

It is interesting how many personal testimonies there are that are in complete violation of that scripture in Hebrews. What's up with that?

Exegete that verse, and you find that it’s not about merely backsliding into sin - this passage is about former believers that have lost their faith completely - thus they can’t be renewed unto repentance again, because only believers will repent of their sins if they’ve backslidden.

Obviously that requires faith, and they’ve lost theirs and have completely apostacized into unbelief.

 

[RDKirk]

That's great. But I don't see how we can make this scripture say that. Can you explain what you mean? Thanks.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

"It is impossible for those .... to be brought back to repentance."

Clearly, it's impossible for someone...because the scripture says it right there.

Now, we could say that "with God all things are possible," and those who believe in universal salvation would assert that God will change everyone's heart, whether they're willing to be changed or not.

From what I see in scripture, though, God will give people what they want, and if they want no part of Him, he will give them no part of Him.

Most significantly, it is clear that God takes what a person knows of Him into account in His judgment. In this case, the writer of Hebrews hammers home the assertion of a person who is not at all ignorant of God, and Paul tells us in Romans that God will give such people over to delusion.

If--having truly known God--they decide they don't want God, then they won't get God.

 

[ozso]

Exegete that verse, and you find that it’s not about merely backsliding into sin - this passage is about former believers that have lost their faith completely - thus they can’t be renewed unto repentance again, because only believers will repent of their sins if they’ve backslidden.

Obviously that requires faith, and they’ve lost theirs and have completely apostacized into unbelief.

I believe Steve is aware of that. I personally know someone who was a model Christian, then renounced being a Christian and spoke against Christianity, and then years later came back to Christ.

Although on his part his apostacy was over the lack of morality he saw in the doctrine of eternal torment, not because he wanted to be a "prodigal" or whatever.

 

[Jeshu]

And if we stop doing that, that is when I'd say we got a problem.

This does not mean that we cannot conquer certain sins, for with Christ we sure can, but it does mean that we will fall for other sins at times we may battle a certain sin for years, i know i have.

Self righteousness, for example, has been a huge sin in Christian Churches, where people look at other peoples sin and despise and judge them because of it, and cannot give them grace like our Lord does.

It is only when we become true sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father that we can give grace to the sinners around us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are getting better at this! I see your strawman is beginning to look rather set upon!

Is not the basic point behind POTS is that a believer who is elected by God cannot lose their salvation? Is that not what it basically teaches?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation isn't like a light switch that we can flick off and on with every daily sin and confession. Saved - unsaved - saved - unsaved - saved. It doesn't work that way. It takes very little to become born again into eternal life, however it takes a lot to become unborn into death. If such a thing is even possible. Again it's not everlasting life - death - everlasting life - death - everlasting life.

Yet, the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) and James 5:19-20 teaches otherwise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation isn't like a light switch that we can flick off and on with every daily sin and confession. Saved - unsaved - saved - unsaved - saved. It doesn't work that way. It takes very little to become born again into eternal life, however it takes a lot to become unborn into death. If such a thing is even possible. Again it's not everlasting life - death - everlasting life - death - everlasting life.

But where is the line of justifying iniquity drawn at?
George Sodini?
Kenneth Nally?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is not the basic point behind POTS is that a believer who is elected by God cannot lose their salvation? Is that not what it basically teaches?

Funny it would go by that name, then. Persevere, they will.

The whole life of the Elect, from regeneration on, is with a heart made new and continued new, by the Holy Spirit. Nobody is saying the person does nothing. But like one poster who is beginning to realize it for himself, the only thing good he does is God doing it. That does not mean he does nothing. It only means it is God doing it.

So it is that by the Spirit within, they persevere. It is not 'automatic', as if they do nothing. I could even cite 'close calls', but, nevertheless, persevere, they will.

Over and over on many different threads, you insist on butting heads with me and others, insisting that we preach an automatic or do-nothing OSAS kind of salvation, where once-in, there's no need to do anything else. We teach James, too, man. The regenerate man WILL work, will obey, will pursue Christ, will persevere.

 

[ozso]

But where is the line of justifying iniquity drawn at?
George Sodini?
Kenneth Nally?

Yet, the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) and James 5:19-20 teaches otherwise.

It seems to me that you display two dimensional black and white thinking. You seem to think the only recourse God has is to revoke salvation and disinherit upon every sin down to a single thought. Thus you're stuck in broken record mode. And I'm not going to keep going in circles with you. This is the last I'm going to say to you about it. I'd suggest that instead of highlighting verses, you clear your mind and just read the NT all the way though a few times, to get the whole message, rather than select bits and pieces.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems to me that you display two dimensional black and white thinking. You seem to think the only recourse God has is to revoke salvation and disinherit upon every sin down to a single thought. Thus you're stuck in broken record mode. And I'm not going to keep going in circles with you. This is the last I'm going to say to you about it. I'd suggest that instead of highlighting verses, you clear your mind and just read the NT all the way though a few times, to get the whole message, rather than select bits and pieces.

How many ways is there to correctly read a blueprint for an aircraft? There is only one way. The Bible uses some complicated language. I do get that. But many times it does speak plainly, as well. Again, what does “alive AGAIN” mean to you in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Do you not realize that this was not account about rejecting the Father but this was of the result of his living it up with prostitutes? The Parable mentions how he spent his inheritance on prostitutes. What about James 5:19-20? How do you explain that plain and easy to understand passage? Again, you need to erase certain parts of the Bible says in order for your belief to be true. So yeah, I am not buying your sin and still be saved gospel. A little bit of sin is with the thinking one is saved by a belief alone in Jesus is just as bad as committing a lot of sin while one thinks they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Funny it would go by that name, then. Persevere, they will.

The whole life of the Elect, from regeneration on, is with a heart made new and continued new, by the Holy Spirit. Nobody is saying the person does nothing. But like one poster who is beginning to realize it for himself, the only thing good he does is God doing it. That does not mean he does nothing. It only means it is God doing it.

So it is that by the Spirit within, they persevere. It is not 'automatic', as if they do nothing. I could even cite 'close calls', but, nevertheless, persevere, they will.

Over and over on many different threads, you insist on butting heads with me and others, insisting that we preach an automatic or do-nothing OSAS kind of salvation, where once-in, there's no need to do anything else. We teach James, too, man. The regenerate man WILL work, will obey, will pursue Christ, will persevere.

But here is the problem. Do you believe that King David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder? Do you believe that if a Christian is still saved if they looked at a woman in lust, and they got hit by a bus and died without getting a chance to confess of their sin?

 

[Jeshu]

Do you believe that if a Christian is still saved if they looked at a woman in lust, and they got hit by a bus and died without getting a chance to confess of their sin?

We can be faithful believer walking in the Spirit or we can be unfaithful sinners walking after our flesh. Unfaithful can kill faithful life but God will bring it to life again. i believe salvation works itself out in part within us. We have two different natures. A born again nature - where we are true to Christ - and cannot truly die or sin again - and a sinful nature where we continue to rebel against God and His rule. 1 John 3:7-10.

We have different sin, and in those sins we have sinful life, Romans 7:14-20, but we have also faithful self where we are born unto newness of life, in that we cannot sin again but have been renewed in Spirit by Christ. As a matter of fact the goats in us are the offspring of liars, this world's, satan and our own, and imprison, enslave and even kill good spirituality in us when we sin in or heed them. (Isaiah 57:1-4.)

The job at hand for any true believer is to bring their sinful life to Jesus, so that the believer dies to such sin and find new life/Spirit in Christ. i know this is an ongoing process which lasts all our lives.

Therefore i believe salvation is a daily dying of the old nature and a daily coming to life in the new nature. This is how Jesus harvests the Chosen in my heart. In those selves i rule with Christ over my life. In my honest self, in my God loving self, in my generous self, in my faithful self, in short in all of my true selves - all 144,000 of me in Christ - i will rule over (my) life, Revelation teaches, for in my Chosen lays the salvation of me in my entirety. Revelation 7.

i believe the Word of God is a spiritual blueprint, especially true for the book of Revelation.

The Word cleanses us of our sins, this is a daily process, where even our hidden thoughts and motives come to the light of day in His truth and are cut out of us, as we appear before Him. Hebrews 4:12-13

Peace.

So in sinful spirituality we will always die and in faithful Spirituality we have eternal life.

 

[zoidar]

....

 

[ozso]

So yeah, I am not buying your sin and still be saved gospel.

I don't have a sin and still be saved gospel to sell. I never did. That's a false accusation, and a strawman you invented to knock down with what appears to be a save yourself through performance gospel.