Struggling in conversion to Orthodoxy

TheLostCoin · Oct 24, 2018

ArmyMatt said:
according to Rome, our sacraments are valid but illicit I believe, whatever that means.

According to my watching of Fr. Hesse, an SSPX Priest who has a Doctorate in Thomistic Theology (he was ordained and educated in Rome, but he left after firmly believing that Vatican II is heretical and therefore can't be a valid council, joining the SSPX) during my Traditional Catholic phase, valid means that the Sacraments do take place, and legitimately occur. Illicit means that it's a disobedience of Canon Law or the authority of the Bishops, and as such, they are mortally sinful when they occur, particularly if they are done with one's consent in knowingly refusing Rome's authority.

The implications are up for debate as to what this means, primarily because Vatican II seems to imply that these illicit Sacraments can be beneficial to one's salvation for those who don't know the Roman Catholic Church is necessary for one's salvation, but Pre John XXIII, including Popes who are canonized Saints of the Roman Catholic Church, they were usually interpreted as damning to one's soul.

However, regardless of such, there are some situations which both sides would agree on. If a baby is Baptized in a Russian Orthodox Church and then dies do to sickness, that Baby would immediately go to heaven, because a valid Sacrament took place, and he would technically be a part of the Roman Catholic Church, as the baby could have no possible knowledge that he was committing a Mortal Sin. However, if a Roman Catholic were to convert to Greek Orthodoxy, violating his conscience just because the aesthetics are pretty, and he took the Eucharist every week, going to Confession on a regular basis, and even taking Unction during Lent, he commits a Sacrilege against the Sacraments each and every time, approaching the "wedding" unworthily every week, which would probably put him in the lowest pits of hell.

Pope Leo XIII was extremely blunt when he said that Schismatics are married to an adulteress, and commit fornication when they participate in the Sacramental life of the Schismatic Churches.

dzheremi · Oct 24, 2018

Yes, 'illicit' is basically just fancy RC talk for "not within the fold of the Roman Catholic Church". So EO sacraments are 'valid' in the Roman Catholic view due to their recognition of your priesthood as well as of the act itself in terms of form and intention (i.e., you're not just saying "ta-dah!" like a magician, and then serving your communicants miniature oreos and milk and saying that this is the Body and Blood of Christ), but they're "illicit" because you're not in communion with Rome.

It's silly, inconsistent with declarations of previous popes (shocking!), and ultimately leads to the insanity of 'episcopi vagantes' whereby because someone is 'validly' ordained at some point, if they leave the Church and start up their own group subsequent to their ordination, they take that 'validity' with them and hence are in some sense presiding over 'valid but illicit' sacraments. So you have all kinds of wackos who are living in their parents' basements who declare themselves Pope Billy or whatever and because they bumped into an actual Roman Catholic once at the sink in an airport bathroom, they claim 'validity' that they clearly don't have. Think Bishop Draperod Mighty Earth Protection Eagle or whatever his name is, times a million.

The most famous of these is probably American David Bawden, a.k.a. "Pope Michael", who has his own wikipedia entry and a documentary film made about him, which is oddly adorable (as you can read at the wiki entry, two of the six 'electors' were Mr. Bawden's parents), and yet creepy. There's a sense of humoring deep mental illness...

TheLostCoin · Oct 24, 2018

dzheremi said:
The most famous of these is probably American David Bawden, a.k.a. "Pope Michael", who has his own wikipedia entry and a documentary film made about him, which is oddly adorable (as you can read at the wiki entry, two of the six 'electors' were Mr. Bawden's parents), and yet creepy. There's a sense of humoring deep mental illness...

I wouldn't say humoring, I would say that it's an a horrifying and sad example of what happens when extraordinary cognitive dissonance is taken to an extreme.

I will say that I do appreciate how Pope Michael acts more like the Pope than the Pope himself at the very least, always moving slowly, never smiling, avoiding eye contact when talking, having his hands together when he is talking, etc.

Another thing worth noting, it's this logic of Sacramental Validity as to why the Church of England has claimed Apostolic Succession - not merely that they are a part of the Apostolic Church, but rather, their Bishops were at one point validly ordained from Rome, and therefore, they can continue to give valid ordinations and Sacraments.

Pope Leo XIII in an encyclical denied though that they have valid ordination or Sacraments, because their theology is so heretical, they therefore cannot possibly give the Proper Sacraments. How can you confer the Eucharist if you deny the Eucharist? And therefore, if you deny that Ordination gives Priests the faculty for conferring the Eucharist, how can you have Ordination?

ArmyMatt · Oct 24, 2018

TheLostCoin said:
I wouldn't say humoring, I would say that it's an a horrifying and sad example of what happens when extraordinary cognitive dissonance is taken to an extreme.

Another thing worth noting, it's this logic as to why the Church of England has claimed Apostolic Succession - not merely that they are a part of the Apostolic Church, but rather, their Bishops were at one point validly ordained from Rome, and therefore, they can continue to give valid ordinations and Sacraments.

Pope Leo XIII in an encyclical denied though that they have valid ordination or Sacraments, because their theology is so heretical, they therefore cannot possibly give the Proper Sacraments. How can you confer the Eucharist if you deny the Eucharist? And therefore, if you deny that Ordination gives Priests the faculty for conferring the Eucharist, how can you have Ordination?

pretty much how we feel about Rome

abacabb3 · Oct 27, 2018

thelostcoin, I did a fair amount of research on the history of the ROman and Orthodox divide. I can PM you the link if you are interested (about 40 pages). That being said, we ultimately do not know for sure. We walk by faith, not by sight. But the demons attack hard particularly before chrismation, but I found comfort reading the Scriptures and fathers. Try fasting too and pray for a wisdom from God. I think that's what gets lost in this. We try to figure things out with our fallen minds, yet we don't fast and pray and wait for God's answer. I think fasting taught me more in a year than 5 years of serious study.

Melily · Feb 28, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
the demons are coming after you because they fear they will lose you.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I feel this is strongly happening to me (and my husband) right now. It’s actually been going on for almost 6 years now when I decided in 2015 to open the Bible and start reading it after many years of living distanced from Christ. It’s most definitely escalated since discovering Eastern Orthodox Christianity while at the same time I’m gradually growing closer to God. I honestly have no idea what to do except pray without ceasing (mostly the Jesus Prayer), continue reading a book from scripture each day and attend services as much as possible. I suppose the attacks must mean I’m on the right track but wow they are certainly intense at this point.
My family has experienced adultery, job losses and changes, failed businesses and identity theft over the last 5-6 years just to name the larger attacks. I definitely recognize my own contributions to opening the door to these issues prior to 2015 and the Jesus Prayer has helped me see all of this better. What I’m wondering at this point is beyond acceptance that I must endure whatever God allows is there anything else I can do as a catechumen? I’ve been praying for intercession to the Theotokos, saints, angels as well as this prayer nearly everyday:
“Almighty God, Who delivered Your people from the bondage of the adversary, and through Your Son cast down Satan like lightning, deliver me also from every influence of unclean spirits. Command Satan to depart far from me by the power of Your only begotten Son. Rescue me from demonic imaginings and darkness. Fill me with the light of the Holy Spirit that I may be guarded against all snares of crafty demons. Grant that an angel will always go before me and lead me to the path of righteousness all the days of my life, to the honor of Your glorious Name, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.”
I’m honestly not sure what else to do except pray for whatever God desires (which I also do.) I feel very inept for handling this myself of course and know only the Lord’s Mercy will help me and my husband.

ArmyMatt · Feb 28, 2021

the enemy definitely comes after us.

Lord have mercy!

Melily · Feb 28, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
the enemy definitely comes after us.

Lord have mercy!

Thank you, I knew full well I was choosing a harder path (as opposed to staying in a Protestant church) when I chose to take the journey to Orthodoxy. I remember telling the priest’s wife last year that I knew this in my heart. It’s like falling in love though and once you experience it there’s no going back.

ArmyMatt · Feb 28, 2021

Melily said:
Thank you, I knew full well I was choosing a harder path (as opposed to staying in a Protestant church) when I chose to take the journey to Orthodoxy. I remember telling the priest’s wife last year that I knew this in my heart. It’s like falling in love though and once you experience it there’s no going back.

yep

Lukaris · Mar 1, 2021

You might also want to consider The Psalter as a book of needs that was compiled by St. Arsenios of Cappadocia. The link I will provide provides the purpose applied per psalm & some groups of psalms for a broad purpose ( for ex. the familiar penitential psalms). The Psalms are Orthodox by number ( although their western number is in parentheses). Hope this can be helpful.

http://www.orthodoxmom.com/2010/02/14/psalms-for-different-afflictions-etc/

Arsenios the Cappadocian - OrthodoxWiki

Melily · Mar 1, 2021

Lukaris said:
You might also want to consider The Psalter as a book of needs that was compiled by St. Arsenios of Cappadocia. The link I will provide provides the purpose applied per psalm & some groups of psalms for a broad purpose ( for ex. the familiar penitential psalms). The Psalms are Orthodox by number ( although their western number is in parentheses). Hope this can be helpful.

http://www.orthodoxmom.com/2010/02/14/psalms-for-different-afflictions-etc/

Arsenios the Cappadocian - OrthodoxWiki

Thanks, that looks very helpful!

Melily · Mar 2, 2021

Lukaris said:
You might also want to consider The Psalter as a book of needs that was compiled by St. Arsenios of Cappadocia. The link I will provide provides the purpose applied per psalm & some groups of psalms for a broad purpose ( for ex. the familiar penitential psalms). The Psalms are Orthodox by number ( although their western number is in parentheses). Hope this can be helpful.

http://www.orthodoxmom.com/2010/02/14/psalms-for-different-afflictions-etc/

Arsenios the Cappadocian - OrthodoxWiki

It is very, very helpful and comforting. Thank you so much for this suggestion!

Lukaris · Mar 2, 2021

Melily said:
It is very, very helpful and comforting. Thank you so much for this suggestion!

I am thankful to be able to relay this to you. God bless.

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