Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

Bible Highlighter said:

For those who do not know (so as to clarify what is being said). IIRC means ”If I recall correctly.”



The Lordship Salvation doctrine may have started off good, but in recent years it has been colored by John MacArthur's ministry because of His Lordship Salvation books. He believes that a Christian can sin and still be saved. I already went into detail on this point with you before in this post here a while back.

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I haven't heard much about it from MacArthur actually. But from what I have heard about it from others, there's nothing I've heard about it that says "a Christian can sin and still be saved". The formula for it I've heard is COP - only the totally committed, obedient and persevering will escape hell. That's the simplest version of it. But when It's questioned it gets more and more complicated. Like your #95 post along with other lengthy complicated posts you've made. And I figure all that is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Which I suppose is why MacArthur ended up having to write a series of books to try explaining it.

Bible Highlighter said:

You are also not really addressing the points I made with Scripture in post #95.
For the points I made in Scripture are just as true as the one you mentioned.

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I think he didn't want to deal with your ever expanding increasingly more complicated interpretation. Occam's razor comes to mind when it comes to your interpretation vs JohnD70X7's interpretation.

MMXX said:

I haven't heard much about it from MacArthur actually. But from what I have heard about it from others, there's nothing I've heard about it that says "a Christian can sin and still be saved".

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MacArthur believes that one can commit suicide, and take the mark of the beast and be saved.
He also states that the sin not unto death is a believer being taken home early by God with physical death because they are sinning. If you were to go back and look at the post link I sent you, this confirms that he believes you can sin and still be saved. So his Lordship Salvation teaching is simply a Trojan horse.

You said:

The formula for it I've heard is COP - only the totally committed, obedient and persevering will escape hell. That's the simplest version of it. But when It's questioned it gets more and more complicated.

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But “committed” has different interpretations by the individual. John MacAthur has a different view of what committment looks like and he does not take the biblical view on it. For he believes that one can sin and still be saved. That is the opposite of being committed to the Lord. It would be in commitment towards one's own sin instead.

You said:

Like your #95 post along with other lengthy complicated posts you've made.

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What do you do when you read the Bible? It is really lengthy and complicated, too. But I did not personally think my post was that long or complicated. I have made really long posts before. That was definitely not one of them in my book. If you don't understand what I was trying to say in that post, I would be happy to explain it to you better. What don't you understand?

MMXX said:

I think he didn't want to deal with your ever expanding increasingly more complicated interpretation. Occam's razor comes to mind when it comes to this.

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He shouldn't do it to help me if he believes that I will not see the light on the issue. He should do it to help others who may come across this thread reading and looking for the truth. But... I know that the verses I mentioned simply do not support him, and so it would be too much work to try and undo what all of those verses plainly say.

Bible Highlighter said:

MacArthur believes that one can commit suicide, and take the mark of the beast and be saved.
He also states that the sin not unto death is a believer being taken home early by God with physical death because they are sinning. If you were to go back and look at the post link I sent you, this confirms that he believes you can sin and still be saved. So his Lordship Salvation teaching is simply a Trojan horse.



But “committed” has different interpretations by the individual. John MacAthur has a different view of what committment looks like and he does not take the biblical view on it. For he believes that one can sin and still be saved. That is the opposite of being committed to the Lord. It would be in commitment towards one's own sin instead.



What do you do when you read the Bible? It is really lengthy and complicated, too. But I did not personally think my post was that long or complicated. I have made really long posts before. That was definitely not one of them in my book. If you don't understand what I was trying to say in that post, I would be happy to explain it to you better. What don't you understand?

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Why are you harping on MacArthur when I said I've hardly referred to him as a source?

Usually a commentary of what the Bible says about a particular subject isn't or at least shouldn't be as lengthy as the Bible itself. JohnD70X7's commentary certainly isn't. Quite honestly I haven't attempted to delve into post 95, so I can't comment on it beyond that it looks several times larger than the post you replied to.

Bible Highlighter said:

He shouldn't do it to help me if he believes that I will not see the light on the issue. He should do it to help others who may come across this thread reading and looking for the truth. But... I know that the verses I mentioned simply do not support him, and so it would be too much work to try and undo what all of those verses plainly say.

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I think the more lengthy your posts get and the more you dominate a thread, the more likely it is people are going to give up on it. I'm about done with this one myself.

MMXX said:

Why are you harping on MacArthur when I said I've hardly referred to him as a source?

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You mentioned Lordship Salvation; I believe MacArthur is the go to person in promoting this belief today. Most understand Lordship Salvation based on his teachings. Granted, there are others who have a different view of Lordship Salvation, but I tend not to use the term because it is associated with MacArthur today.

You said:

Usually a commentary of what the Bible says about a particular subject isn't or at least shouldn't be as lengthy as the Bible itself.

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That is a bit of an exaggeration. I provided 913 words. The King James Bible has 783,137 words.
Here is what I would call a long post that I created.

30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

I did not even come close to creating lengthy posts like I did in the following thread.

You said:

JohnD70X7's commentary certainly isn't. Quite honestly I haven't attempted to delve into post 95, so I can't comment on it beyond that it looks several times larger than the post you replied to.

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The issue should not be in the length of the post, but it should be about the content. Again, the Bible is lengthy and complicated. So I fail to see that what I had written is a problem.

MMXX said:

I think the more lengthy your posts get and the more you dominate a thread, the more likely it is people are going to give up on it. I'm about done with this one myself.

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If a mechanic had replied to an issue you had about your car problem with 913 words, would you give him this same reply? I sure hope not, my friend.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God bless you today.

You're obviously not aware of how exasperating you can be.

MMXX said:

You're obviously not aware of how exasperating you are.

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My post #95 is not going anywhere.
Please address the content of my post with Scripture in return, and not me please.
You can break up the post in bite sized pieces and reply to it over a month if you need to.

Bible Highlighter said:

My post #95 is not going anywhere.
Please address the content of my post with Scripture in return, and not me please.
You can break up the post in bite sized pieces and reply to it over a month if you need to.

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Post #95 is like many other posts. It seems like you are trying overwhelm others from debating you.

JohnD70X7 said:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus is obviously Testator of the New Testament. So the dividing line between Old and New Testaments is not at the end of Malachi 4 and the beginning of Matthew 1.

Rather, it is interlaced in the Gospels at Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, and John 19:30.

So what?

So everything in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are under Old Testament Law prior to those scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount was not taught to compel Christians to live stricter lives than the Pharisees, for example. Cutting off or gouging out body parts to keep out of hell comes to mind. Forgiving everyone so our Heavenly Father will forgive us. These are works under the Law and not mercy under Grace.

Rightly dividing the word of truth in this way removes the confusion:

• is it Grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10)?
• or is it works (Matthew 5:27-30 / Matthew 6:14-15 / Mark 11:26)?
• is it New Testament to tithe (Matthew 23:23 / Luke 11:42 / Luke 18:12)?
  
• or according to your abundance / cheerful heart giving (2 Corinthians 8:10 -15 / 2 Corinthians 9:7)?

Footnote: It would be wrong not to support a ministry financially that you benefit from frequently (Bible study, prayer service, praise and worship service, child care, etc.). But at the same time we should not substitute these things for our own ministries which we are called to as all believers are priests of God (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9). Not all in Christ are called to preach, and the local congregational meetings are to supplement our own ministries... NOT replace them. So we should consider our own ministries worthy of our support... as well as giving to the local Church.

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The conundrum you present is confusion, not really what God's Word teaches. Who in the world can say the Old Testament saints weren't saved by God's grace, even without works?

Was Jonah saved by his works? Obviously not, because Jonah tried to kill himself to keep from doing what God told him to do. God had a great fish swallow Jonah and then spit him upon the very shore of Nineveh where God told him to preach to.

When God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith, and Abraham believed and God accounted Abraham's Faith as righteousness, that was a show of the same Faith as we have when first believing on Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 even said those of Faith are the "children of Abraham". That Promise by Faith was actually the first giving of the New Covenant Promise by Faith, which is why Paul associated it with Faith on Christ in Galatians 3 and Romans 4. Abraham simply didn't get to live to the time to see it fulfilled by Jesus' death and resurrection, but he knew about it and was glad, because Jesus even said so at the end of John 8.

A true Bible teacher can preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ from just about every Book of The Bible. Why? Because The Gospel Promise also includes the original declarations in the Old Testament Books of the prophecy that God would send Israel (and the Gentiles) The Savior.

The Old Testament and New Testament Confusion:

The Old Testament Books contain still a lot of prophecy about the New Covenant and thereafter, even into God's future Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth under Christ Jesus. Even Genesis 49 is a prophecy from Jacob to his twelve sons of what would befall them in the last days, meaning at the end of this world. So the term "Old Testament" does not translate directly to the meaning of, "Old Covenant" which God gave to Israel only. It's a mistake to interpret it that way. Nor can just saying the first five Books of Moses (from Genesis to Deuteronomy) means all that is only about the Old Covenant between God and Israel (I just gave an example with Genesis 49 to show it isn't. Even Genesis 3:15 is a hint of The Gospel of Jesus Christ that would happen with Jesus's heel bruised to represent Christ's crucifixion.)

Why am I declaring all this?

Because without understanding a lot of The Old Testament Books, there's much in The New Testament Books that won't be properly understood, especially concerning our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation.

So who would want us to just bypass Bible study in The Old Testament Books, and even in The Gospels, just because Israel was still under the Old Covenant until after Lord Jesus' death and resurrection? Doing that is following a doctrine of a certain small group of men who took the idea of Dispensationalism and created their 'own' theory of it. It's called Hyper-Dispensationalism, or Ultra-Dispensationalism. It is a man-made doctrine, not a doctrine written in God's Word.

MMXX said:

Post #95 is like many other posts. It seems like you are trying overwhelm others from debating you.

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Not at all. For one, I do not consider the post all that long, and it is extremely rare when somebody says that folks will say that such a reply is lengthy. Second, I have many times replied to longer posts than the one I provided. Folks in the past have also had no trouble replying to my posts that were 900 words or so, as well. When they replied back, I also gave them a reply in return.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, saying that Jesus was talking metaphorically entirely in Matthew 5:28-30 is not correct. From my perspective it looks like an attempt to undo what He said.

First, while Jesus did teach during the time under the Old Covenant, you falsely assume that Jesus taught only Old Covenant and not New Covenant. This is just patently false.

#1. Old way says: An eye for an eye.
Jesus says: Turn the other cheek.
(Matthew 5:38-39).
#2. Old way says: To kill is to be in danger of judgment.
Jesus says: To say to your brother, “You fool” is to be in danger of the judgment.
(Matthew 5:21-22).
#3. Old way says: Perform unto the Lord your oaths.
Jesus says: Make no oaths at all.
(Matthew 5:34-37).
#4. Old way says: The men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she has wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house (Deuteronomy 22:21).
Jesus says: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7).​

Second, you falsely think Paul taught Belief Alone-ism and he did not support living righteously as a part of being in God's good kingdom.

#1. Paul said:
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
Conclusion: You can deny God by a lack of good works. So it's not Belief Alone-ism.

#2. Paul said: “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
Conclusion: Obviously those who commit sin have pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul says here that those who do so are damned. Paul does not mention another group of people (like believers) who can also have pleasure in unrighteousness and yet they can still be saved (if you believe a Christian can sin and still be saved).

#3. Paul said:
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
Conclusion: Paul listed various grievous sins and he said that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. So there is no such thing as a sin and still be saved type belief (if you believe a Christian can sin and still be saved).

#4. Paul said:
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
Conclusion: This is saying that if you live one way after the flesh or sin, you will die. But if you mortify or put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, you will live. Two ways of living here. One is living in sin and dying, and the other way of living is putting away sin by the power of the Holy Spirit in living. There is no third option that says we can sin and still be saved (if you believe a Christian can sin and still be saved).

#5. Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
Conclusion: This erases any doubt here that this is not talking about physical death only if we sin. Taking into account Romans 8:13, we must conclude that there is no condemnation for those in Jesus who walk after the Spirit, but if they walk after the flesh, naturally there would be condemnation for they will die if they live after the flesh or sin. For Galatians 5:19 defines the works of the flesh as certain sins. So Romans 8:1 does not give us an alternative route that we can live after the flesh and be in Christ Jesus and still be saved.​

I believe Belief Alone Proponents fail to understand that Paul is referring to Works ALONE Salvationism that did not include God's grace in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. I believe they fail to understand that there are two aspects of salvation. The first aspect of salvation is God's grace without the deeds of the Law, and the second aspect of salvation is by Sanctification (i.e. living holy by God working through you) (Philippians 2:13, John 15:5).

Three, also Belief Alone-ism (Which in most cases suggests a sin and still be saved type belief) really does not resolve the problem of evil. We are supposed to be children of light and not children of darkness or of the devil. By our actions determines what kind of person we are. For do you not think Superman is good based on him being a hero or in doing good? Does not the villain do evil or wrong? How can Superman be the good guy if he did evil? That is what you are asking me to accept if you hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. You speak of evil, but you really cannot borrow from morality if you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved (Which is a violation of basic morality).

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There is one problem with that though. It's Galatians 3:22 and Romans 7.

While we are in this flesh, we are going to sin, no matter how hard we try not to. We cannot be our own Christ, as we all have been concluded by The Scriptures under sin, so that Salvation would be to those who believe on Jesus Christ Who only was perfect without sin.

This means even when trying to walk by The Spirit, sometimes we are going to still mess up and sin (see Romans 7:13-25).

What do we do then? And I guarantee, we all will still sin after having believed on Jesus and baptized, even while trying to heed The Spirit.

The solution to this many have is Extremism. What you covered is to one Extreme. Those with a "Belief Alone-ism" is the other Extreme. Neither Extreme is correct per God's Word.

The Biblical answer is to Repent to Jesus of future... sins we may commit. This is the very subject Apostle John was covering in 1 John 1. And John made it plain there that to deny we sin is to make Jesus a liar. Those on a OSAS doctrine of man try to say that 1 John 1 Scripture is for the non-believer when it is not. John was speaking to believing brethren on Christ Jesus. Those on OSAS will even say the Lord's Prayer Jesus gave in Luke 11 which shows us to ask forgiveness of our sins, and for those who sin against us, was given before Jesus died on the cross, so it isn't in effect for Christians. That of course is another false doctrine, just so those on OSAS can keep their Extremist view.

On the other Extreme is what you have covered. It is true we are to strive to conduct a sinless life after having believed on Lord Jesus and been baptized. Yet per God's Word being perfect in doing that is still not possible for us. We can never become 100% literally perfect without sin in this flesh, otherwise we would no longer need Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance when we do mess up is the key here too for future sins we may commit. We are to ask Him forgiveness, repenting of the sin, and like John said, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Thus the 2 Extremist sides both lie to themselves: those who claim they cannot sin anymore after believing on Jesus, and then those who say they don't have sin anymore because of being perfect in following The Holy Spirit. Neither is 100% possible while in this flesh, and this is what God's Word teaches. Both Extremist views will wind up in rebuke, because of not understanding our position in Christ while in this flesh for this present world, and not understanding just 'how' we are to walk in Christ.

Communion With Christ:
One of the things we are to do when holding Communion with Lord Jesus is introspection, to look at ourselves and how we conduct our life. And then work things out with Him, repenting as necessary and asking His help in correcting our unrighteousness deeds. Remembering His death and resurrection of course is the main course, but Apostle Paul also said to let a man examine himself (1 Corinthians 11:28).

Davy said:

There is one problem with that though. It's Galatians 3:22 and Romans 7.

While we are in this flesh, we are going to sin, no matter how hard we try not to. We cannot be our own Christ, as we all have been concluded by The Scriptures under sin, so that Salvation would be to those who believe on Jesus Christ Who only was perfect without sin.

This means even when trying to walk by The Spirit, sometimes we are going to still mess up and sin (see Romans 7:13-25).

What do we do then? And I guarantee, we all will still sin after having believed on Jesus and baptized, even while trying to heed The Spirit.

The solution to this many have is Extremism. What you covered is to one Extreme. Those with a "Belief Alone-ism" is the other Extreme. Neither Extreme is correct per God's Word.

The Biblical answer is to Repent to Jesus of future... sins we may commit. This is the very subject Apostle John was covering in 1 John 1. And John made it plain there that to deny we sin is to make Jesus a liar. Those on a OSAS doctrine of man try to say that 1 John 1 Scripture is for the non-believer when it is not. John was speaking to believing brethren on Christ Jesus. Those on OSAS will even say the Lord's Prayer Jesus gave in Luke 11 which shows us to ask forgiveness of our sins, and for those who sin against us, was given before Jesus died on the cross, so it isn't in effect for Christians. That of course is another false doctrine, just so those on OSAS can keep their Extremist view.

On the other Extreme is what you have covered. It is true we are to strive to conduct a sinless life after having believed on Lord Jesus and been baptized. Yet per God's Word being perfect in doing that is still not possible for us. We can never become 100% literally perfect without sin in this flesh, otherwise we would no longer need Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance when we do mess up is the key here too for future sins we may commit. We are to ask Him forgiveness, repenting of the sin, and like John said, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Thus the 2 Extremist sides both lie to themselves: those who claim they cannot sin anymore after believing on Jesus, and then those who say they don't have sin anymore because of being perfect in following The Holy Spirit. Neither is 100% possible while in this flesh, and this is what God's Word teaches. Both Extremist views will wind up in rebuke, because of not understanding our position in Christ while in this flesh for this present world, and not understanding just 'how' we are to walk in Christ.

Communion With Christ:
One of the things we are to do when holding Communion with Lord Jesus is introspection, to look at ourselves and how we conduct our life. And then work things out with Him, repenting as necessary and asking His help in correcting our unrighteousness deeds. Remembering His death and resurrection of course is the main course, but Apostle Paul also said to let a man examine himself (1 Corinthians 11:28).

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Paul also says, “...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul also says, “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...” (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So then what is Paul talking about in Romans 7:14-24?

Paul is recounting of his experience as Saul when he was under the false Pharisee religion that made salvation primarily about Works Alone or Law Alone via by the keeping of the 613 Laws of Moses. Christians today are not under the whole of the 613 laws of Mosees given to Israel. Neither are Christians saved by Law Alone Salvationism, either. Paul recounted in how he tried to keep the Old Law and he could not do it on his own when he was a Pharisee. But Christ was able to deliver him from the Old Law and to keep the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law instead. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10, that he that loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law (i.e. the Old Law). In Romans 8:4 Paul says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4). When we walk after the Spirit we will have the fruits of love, joy, peace, etc. (See: Galatians 5:22). For Paul says if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See: Galatians 5:16).

As for Galatians 3:22:

Paul is fighting against a heresy at that time of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” This was the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This false belief was taught to us at the Jerusalem council. For it is written:

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Paul also alluded to fighting against this heresy, as well.

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In other words, if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, then they would be making the Law or works the basis or foundation of their salvation and it would not be making Jesus Christ the foundation or basis of their salvation. This is what we have to keep in mind when we read verses like Galatians 3:22. For yes. We are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We all had sinned as a part of our old life and we need to have our past slate of sin wiped out. But God's grace is not a license for immorality, either.

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

JohnD70X7 said:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

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OP: Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is.

The OP poster had it right. Christ is the testator Hebrews 9:16–17. Christ dies tearing the OT veil in 1/2 (old covenant ends here). Is resurrected & sends to believers of/in His sin atoning death, burial & resurrection, His New covenant/testament baptism, with His salvation sealing eternal indwelling Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-4.

Parsing 2 Timothy chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: Be strong in the GRACE that is in Christ Jesus. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ Jn 1:17).

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
(MY NOTE: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead/RESURRECTED!)

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
(MY NOTE: Paul suffered greatly for his RESURRECTION gospel)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(MY NOTE: Rightly dividing the word of truth: Christ died for your sin, was buried & raised/RESURRECTED on day 3. 1Cor 15:1-4)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(MY NOTE: Run from vain babblings, foolish questions, contentions & strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable. Titus 3:9)

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(MY NOTE: RESURRECTION is still chapter context)

The dividing point between Old & New testaments/covenants is the sin atoning death, burial & resurrection & Holy Spirit outpouring Christ.

BrotherJJ said:

OP: Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is.

The OP poster had it right. Christ is the testator Hebrews 9:16–17. Christ dies tearing the OT veil in 1/2 (old covenant ends here). Is resurrected & sends to believers of/in His sin atoning death, burial & resurrection, His New covenant/testament baptism, with His salvation sealing eternal indwelling Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-4.

Parsing 2 Timothy chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: Be strong in the GRACE that is in Christ Jesus. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ Jn 1:17).

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
(MY NOTE: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead/RESURRECTED!)

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
(MY NOTE: Paul suffered greatly for his RESURRECTION gospel)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(MY NOTE: Rightly dividing the word of truth: Christ died for your sin, was buried & raised/RESURRECTED on day 3. 1Cor 15:1-4)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(MY NOTE: Run from vain babblings, foolish questions, contentions & strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable. Titus 3:9)

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(MY NOTE: RESURRECTION is still chapter context)

The dividing point between Old & New testaments/covenants is the sin atoning death, burial & resurrection & Holy Spirit outpouring Christ.

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What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” (1 Timothy 6:3-5).

BrotherJJ said:

OP: Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is.

The OP poster had it right. Christ is the testator Hebrews 9:16–17. Christ dies tearing the OT veil in 1/2 (old covenant ends here). Is resurrected & sends to believers of/in His sin atoning death, burial & resurrection, His New covenant/testament baptism, with His salvation sealing eternal indwelling Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-4.

Parsing 2 Timothy chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
(MY NOTE: Be strong in the GRACE that is in Christ Jesus. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ Jn 1:17).

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
(MY NOTE: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead/RESURRECTED!)

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
(MY NOTE: Paul suffered greatly for his RESURRECTION gospel)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(MY NOTE: Rightly dividing the word of truth: Christ died for your sin, was buried & raised/RESURRECTED on day 3. 1Cor 15:1-4)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(MY NOTE: Run from vain babblings, foolish questions, contentions & strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable. Titus 3:9)

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(MY NOTE: RESURRECTION is still chapter context)

The dividing point between Old & New testaments/covenants is the sin atoning death, burial & resurrection & Holy Spirit outpouring Christ.

Click to expand...

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.


#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.


#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.


#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.


#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.


#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.


#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul also says, “...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

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Yes, Paul does say that; he admonished the brethren a lot in his Epistles, which is what we are supposed to do for each other too in Christ. So have you really, truly... been able to cleanse yourself from ALL sin? If you say yes, then I say you're not being truthful, for while in this flesh we can only be 'counted' perfect for trying and repenting when we fail. Not repenting when we do find ourselves in sin is a sin against Christ in itself, because it means denying that we sinned.

Davy said:

Yes, Paul does say that; he admonished the brethren a lot in his Epistles, which is what we are supposed to do for each other too in Christ. So have you really, truly... been able to cleanse yourself from ALL sin? If you say yes, then I say you're not being truthful, for while in this flesh we can only be 'counted' perfect for trying and repenting when we fail. Not repenting when we do find ourselves in sin is a sin against Christ in itself, because it means denying that we sinned.

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It's not really about me. But it's about what the Bible says. It does not matter whether or not I have or not. My life is not the standard of the faith. The Bible is the standard of the faith. Only God can truly judge each believer's life and the hidden things that they are not aware of yet, and I believe many believers have to put away grievous sin out of their lives in the Sanctification Process.

Anyways, what Paul says is true. Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Paul would not say this if it was not possible. Think. You need to listen to what Paul actually said vs. what you hear in the pulpits.