If jesus paid for our sins why do we still pay for our sins?

Truthspeaker72362 said:

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Why do you think this? What sin have you ever paid for?

Truthspeaker72362 said:

1 peter 2:20

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Jesus was sinless. Look at how he suffered. How many times was Paul beaten and left for dead? Etc., etc.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

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One thing that people might think of is the truth we are told from the New Testament book of Hebrews:

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
Hebrews 12 NIV

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But are you asking about after this life, about the Catholic idea of "purgatory"? It would be great to learn more about how Catholics arrived at this idea, and more about it. I don't think we have to know whether the purgatory idea is correct.

The key thing we must do is listen to Christ and do as He says: Matthew chapter 7 (many places, and very emphatically, such as verses 12-14, 21, 24-27)

Truthspeaker72362 said:

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Because God uses the "Atonement model" of scripture - not the grocery story model.

In the grocery story you pay for your groceries - then whatever you do with them is your business alone - the grocer has no say in it at all.

1 John 2:2 says God uses the "Atonement" model instead of that - it is the model where God pays (it would be the grocer paying instead of you except God has even more ownership than that in Atonement).

1 John 2:
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In the Atonement model God is the one paying "himself" -- the debt that His own laws demand. Instead of God "getting paid" - it is "God getting tormented". So then "forgiveness revoked" is possible in that sort of system.

Matt 18:
32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

The one who is owed never gets paid in that example nor in the Atonement example ... in Atonement the one owed... also pays.

Therefore the guilty culprit is never in a position to say "hey grocer don't bother me - I already paid you in full"

The wages of sin is death, and we escape that if we have Christ.

However, we will pay a price to walk with God, but we are not paying the price for sin...again, that was taken care of.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

1 peter 2:20

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This is referring to penance which is about showing remorse for one’s sin. God is pleased when we acknowledge our mistakes and correct them. This has nothing to do with payment or atonement for sin.

This is where modern terminology starts to really wreak havoc in understanding the truth.

Jesus did not "pay" for our sins.

Jesus bore our sins - the sin of the world.

In other words, God took the sin of the world - the cause and effect of everything that is against God or fails to achieve what is perfect - and He put all of that on Jesus.

In doing that, because Jesus was perfect, His death not only took away sins' final outcome on the believer, His resurrection took away sins' current power over the believer.

So, to recap, no one pays for their sin(never have and never will), but an unbeliever does have the power of sin over their life and will receive its final outcome when they die.

For the believer, we still see the effect of sin that is still in the world, but it has no effect on us as an individual(except when we walk according to the world).

Peter was making this point. Jesus already bore all the sins of the world, so there is no "credit" or "glory/praise" for being punished for them. Jesus acquired all of that already.

However, when we do not sin - but are doing those things that are right - and we get punished, then it is a "glory/praise" to God because it shows the faith we have received from Him.

Dave L said:

Why do you think this? What sin have you ever paid for?

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1Co 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here's the issue: We are commanded to judge ourselves correctly in accordance with what the fullness of the word of God truly says and means on every topic when we cut straight every single passage that "might" apply to each individual topic. All of us will either stand approved or stand ashamed before God one day based on how well each of us habitually does this for and by ourselves. If we habitually refuse to do what it takes to get to truth, and live in accordance with it, 1Co. 11:29-30 kicks in. Provided we are truly His kids in the first place.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Thus, practice sin, and you will become weak, sick, or you will "sleep", i.e. die and be taken home, as we see in 1Co. 5:4-5. Why? Because we have 2 "choices" we can be judged for our bad choices now, or get judged with the rest of the world after we die.

32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

But that will only happen if we refuse to do our part:

31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

EmethAlethia said:

1Co 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here's the issue: We are commanded to judge ourselves correctly in accordance with what the fullness of the word of God truly says and means on every topic when we cut straight every single passage that "might" apply to each individual topic. All of us will either stand approved or stand ashamed before God one day based on how well each of us habitually does this for and by ourselves. If we habitually refuse to do what it takes to get to truth, and live in accordance with it, 1Co. 11:29-30 kicks in. Provided we are truly His kids in the first place.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Thus, practice sin, and you will become weak, sick, or you will "sleep", i.e. die and be taken home, as we see in 1Co. 5:4-5. Why? Because we have 2 "choices" we can be judged for our bad choices now, or get judged with the rest of the world after we die.

32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

But that will only happen if we refuse to do our part:

31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

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“No child of God commits sin, because the divine seed remains in him; indeed because he is God’s child he cannot sin. This is what shows who are God’s children and who are the devil’s: anyone who fails to do what is right or love his fellow-Christians is not a child of God.” 1 John 3:9–10 (REB)

Dave L said:

“No child of God commits sin, because the divine seed remains in him; indeed because he is God’s child he cannot sin. This is what shows who are God’s children and who are the devil’s: anyone who fails to do what is right or love his fellow-Christians is not a child of God.” 1 John 3:9–10 (REB)

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Better rendered:

"1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices(Present tense = Ongoing continuous habitual action) sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

Because His children (True Christians) are always judged now when they do.

"Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Notice the weakness, sickness and possible death references here. Now read:

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

God judges His kids now so that we won't have to b e judged with the world. if true Christians never "chose" to willfully disobey God, there never would be any reproof. Here's an example:

"1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Notice the willful, non-repentant sin, even going to church with everyone knowing what you are doing. Notice the destruction of the flesh (Physical death.) Notice also that this non-repentant sinner, although being taken home by God, is still going home to God. His soul is still saved.

Let me explain, o you who are not descendants of the pure blood of Abraham.

I am from Indonesia, maybe you come from America, Canada, Australia, etc. (other than Israel)

The word "Sin" refers to the Law. Where did God put the Law of the Torah? What's in Indonesia? Or is it in Canada? or in Brazil?

God only put the law in Israel.

The question is, will God claim sin from the Philistines? Not. Would God require the Philistines to offer burnt offerings? Not. Would God send a Prophet to the Philistines when they sinned? Not. Did God make David king over the Philistines? Not.

So?

The Law never applied in any other nation except Israel.

What does it mean? Sin is a business of the Israelites, and it is not a business of the Indonesian nation, nor is it a business of the American nation and other nations.

So, to us non-Israelites, in God's eyes we are never guilty of the law even though we violate the law. Because God never put the Law in a nation other than Israel. So...

There is no point talking about forgiveness of sins to non-Israelites like us.

Because Jesus' death on the cross was to atone for Israel's sins, because they had left the law so that sins continued to accumulate. That sin must be erased, burned by the provisions of the Law, otherwise all Israel perishes (Not the whole world).

Finally, Jesus came down. However, according to the prophecy of the holy book, that Jesus was rejected by Israel. Therefore, in the Old Testament, it is written that because the Israelites committed adultery against other gods, and turned away from the true God, God did likewise. God turned from Israel to other nations. (I will not include the verse, you find out for yourself) and accept them (non-Israelites = infidels) to be His people. Those who do not know God become His people.

This all happened because Israel committed adultery and turned from Allah to idols.

So, we are given Grace, so God does not deal with sin against the Gentiles like us. It all started when Jesus gave His disciples the most glorious command to preach the gospel to all the world.

This fulfilled God's Promise to Abraham, which said, through you the Gentiles will be blessed.

So it is impossible, through the Law, other nations will receive the blessing because the Law was only put by God in Israel. So God's promise to Abraham that he would be a blessing to other nations would not be successful through the law process but through FAITH IN CHRIST. Because Jesus was rejected by His own people, once again I say, Jesus was rejected by His own people. Israel is the people of Jesus, not us non-Israelites. God chose Israel, and will not change forever. But because they turned away from God, we, the Gentiles, had the advantage of having the opportunity to become His people through Jesus Christ, not the law. It was Jesus who was given to the world, but the Law was still Israel's business.

So, the conclusion is that the curse of the law was repealed by Jesus, so that we could study the law. However, the BLESSING of the law is not revoked, so that through Christ we can receive the blessing of KNOWLEDGE about sin and His Grace to us fleshly people.

We are an infidel nation, even that infidel has made it clear that we are non-holy people. But thanks to God, we receive the gift of being His People. We live in faith, not deal with the law and sins.

God will not send a prophet when we sin. Because when David committed adultery, God sent a prophet. But Faith is like this, as long as the heavens and the earth have not disappeared, the Word of God regarding repentance will never expire.

So it is not us taking care of sin, but are we loyal to the faith of Christ? Faith is heavier than sin. That's what 1 Peter 2:20 says about suffering. Our opponent is the WORLD, not Law. Sex, money, eating, drinking, worldly pleasures like playing games, promiscuity, etc.

we pay for our sins when we keep sinning. we pay for them when we built up sin in us and then change in the direction of the second adam and the patterns we formerly built up then torment us which is a "blessed are the persecuted" kind of thing. we pay for our sins when we become so passive and fit in to the makeup of the world rather than creating a world with christian values.

Christians allow the government to be their king and so they have to suffer the effects of a democracy which is basically all peoples opinions on things mixed together in an abomination of desolation... as if sinners should have a say in what proper morality is. but we fit right in to democracy because most of us are ourselves deficient in morality, it's not just some groups of people, it's most people. but things can get a lot worse.