You know, Christians could put this discussion to bed, and all the godless atheists in their place by simply providing proof that the god they so fervently worship actually exists.
I've lost count of the times this has been asked of Christians and lost count of the times the evidence they supply is purely anecdotal.
So when I say I don't believe in a god or gods it is because I have been shown nothing that makes me see that they actually exist. It is a lack of evidence that makes me say I don't believe in god. That is not the same as me saying god does not exist.
I'll bring this out here, since you've bottom-lined it so succinctly. Maybe this will put it "to bed" although not in the way you are suggesting.
I'll say up front that I mean no personal disrespect to you. I'm simply going to speak from the Christian Bible to show you my current point of view and to explain it to some degree.
You're asking for proof from Christians. Others, like True Counterphobia, may be tasked to deal with this quite differently than I and I'm happy to sit back and watch the discussion, until I don't. For me, as a Christian, I'm going to answer like this:
You've already been given proof that you have rejected. Unless and until you may desire to reconsider this proof, IMO we may as well discuss something else.
NKJ Romans 18-25 18 For
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
NKJ Romans 1:28 And
even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
I do not see atheism or agnosticism to be legitimate, at least from a beginning. I'm going to use "you" in the general, plural sense, to refer to professing atheists and agnostics (
which at one point we all were):
- 18: All people (other than a very few Biblical exceptions) begin in this category of "ungodliness and "unrighteousness" "who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
- 19: God has revealed / made known to all people the visible thing He wants known about Himself
- 20: Explaining 19, from the time of creation of the world, the invisible things about Him - both His eternal power and divine nature - are understood & clearly perceived, so you have no excuse for being the types in v.18
- 21: You knew God, but you did not glorify Him or thank Him, rather, you were made / rendered futile/worthless in your reasoning and your senseless/void of understanding hearts were darkened
- 22-23: While confidently asserting to be wise, you became foolish and changed the glory of the immortal/incorruptible God in image of likeness of perishable creatures
- 24: And therefore God handed you over to uncleanness
- 25: You exchanged the truth about God for the lie. You both reverence and serve the creation instead of the blessed forever Creator.
- 28: Just as you did not see value in having God in practical/usable knowledge, God handed you over to your worthless mind, to do what is not appropriate.
This similar observation was made by King David in times much prior:
NET Psalm 53:1 For the music director; according to the machalath style; a well-written song by David.
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.
So, from my point of view, it is the one who says we cannot know whether there is a God who should explain why they believe God is unknown. God tells me you have no excuse for rejecting the practical knowledge about Himself He has given to every human being from the beginning of time. He further tells me you see no value in having Him in this universal, practical knowledge.
Similarly, whether you say: you lack or have no belief, do not believe, or simply say God does not exist, it is you who should explain why you see no value in having God in the practical knowledge about Himself, He has given to all.
How do we Christians prove what you have already rejected that is directly from Him? Do we tell you to try to go back to your very young years, go look out at the creation and innocently wonder where it all came from?
All we Christians really did is to retain that wonder at some level and find interest in, learn, and ultimately believe more that He reveals to us. Somehow, we saw value in this information about Him & did not reject it in finality.
So, you can use agnostic or atheist to identify your state of mind, but as soon as you do,
Romans 1 categorizes the condition of your mind for me and it's not a pretty picture. You can be smart to genius, successful in a worldly sense, moral & ethical to some degree, whatever anyone thinks is special, but in the most vital sense, from a Christian perspective, it's all eternally worthless and you are suppressing Truth
