Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?

Guojing said:

Law of faith is a totally different term from works of faith. The latter is your invention.

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The law instructs us how to do works, so they are synonymous. What are you seeing as being a significant difference between the two?

Soyeong said:

The law instructs us how to do works, so they are synonymous. What are you seeing as being a significant difference between the two?

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Just think of the term "law of gravity", and you will understand why you cannot simply substitute works to replace the word law, anytime you feel like it.

Guojing said:

Just think of the term "law of gravity", and you will understand why you cannot simply substitute works to replace the word law, anytime you feel like it.

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The law of gravity explains how gravity works. You're making a big deal our of how the law of faith and works of faith are totally different without explaining how there is any meaningful difference.

Soyeong said:

The law of gravity explains how gravity works. You're making a big deal our of how the law of faith and works of faith are totally different without explaining how there is any meaningful difference.

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So likewise, the law of faith is as what Paul described in 2 Corinthians 4:13 and Romans 10:9

You believe, therefore you speak, and that is how you are saved under his gospel (Romans 16:25)

It has zero link to the meaning of works, except in your mind perhaps

Guojing said:

So likewise, the law of faith is as what Paul described in 2 Corinthians 4:13 and Romans 10:9

You believe, therefore you speak, and that is how you are saved under his gospel (Romans 16:25)

It has zero link to the meaning of works, except in your mind perhaps

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What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what it looks like to believe.

In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying what God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord. Likewise, in Romans 10:11-21, it contrasts believing in Jesus with those who did not obey the Gospel.

Soyeong said:

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what it looks like to believe.

In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying what God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord. Likewise, in Romans 10:11-21, it contrasts believing in Jesus with those who did not obey the Gospel.

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James is saying you need to believe AND have works in order to be saved.

As I said to you many times already, it does not mean James is saying to believe is a work.

Guojing said:

James is saying you need to believe AND have works in order to be saved.

As I said to you many times already, it does not mean James is saying to believe is a work.

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James said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so if someone were looking at James and trying to deduce whether he was someone who had faith, then they would do so by looking at his works. This is the same with how every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone doing works. If someone claimed that they believed that God can be trusted to guide them in how to rightly live, but they refused to act in a way that expressed their trust in God to guide them, then their actions would undermine their claim and show that they didn't actually believe in God, so obeying God's commands is what it looks like to believe in Him. James was not speaking about needing to do works to earn our salvation, but was speaking of works being required insofar as they are what it means to believe.

Soyeong said:

James said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so if someone were looking at James and trying to deduce whether he was someone who had faith, then they would do so by looking at his works. This is the same with how every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone doing works. If someone claimed that they believed that God can be trusted to guide them in how to rightly live, but they refused to act in a way that expressed their trust in God to guide them, then their actions would undermine their claim and show that they didn't actually believe in God, so obeying God's commands is what it looks like to believe in Him. James was not speaking about needing to do works to earn our salvation, but was speaking of works being required insofar as they are what it means to believe.

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In Hebrews 11, yes, works were needed to show faith in God in all those examples.

It does not, however, follows that faith is a work.

Don't confuse the 2.

Guojing said:

In Hebrews 11, yes, works were needed to show faith in God in all those examples.

It does not, however, follows that faith is a work.

Don't confuse the 2.

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Every example of faith is also an example of works, so why does it not follow that faith is work?

Soyeong said:

Every example of faith is also an example of works, so why does it not follow that faith is work?

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When I said "works were needed to show faith in God", I am not saying like what you are saying that "Every example of faith is also an example of works".

It was always faith that saves since the beginning of time.

But to answer your question, its because of Romans 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

When Paul was saved to usher in the mystery of gospel of grace (Ephesians 3:9), you can now, for the first time, show your faith without works, and God will accept it and declare you righteous because of that (Romans 4:5).

That was not available to Noah for example, if he have faith in God that there will be a flood but refuse to build an ark, he would have perished.

Interesting how a question to Catholics and Orthodox has now devolved into an argument between two people who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox.

fhansen said:

The real question is, what makes us righteous enough in the eyes of God to enter heaven?

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Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Can a person with faith alone, but no works including overcoming sin (fulfilling the law), enter heaven?

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Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14-24) Have you overcome all sin? Do you live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?

Are they "salvageable"? Do we need to do anything? Do we need to be-can we be- personally righteous in any manner? And Scripture tells us yes, in many places, Paul's writings included.

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So how much personal righteous must we accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

And yet there's no contradiction here because as Paul was opposing works of the law he was opposing legalism, the idea that I can be righteous on my own apart from God by a mere exhibition or external show of righteousness. That concept is what Paul was battling.

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Paul was battling salvation by works, which is legalism.

And no such righteousness really even exists and so no such works have any meaning: they do not justify us-because pretend righteousness does not make us just. So in Matt 5 Jesus raises the standard higher. We must be clean on the inside first of all-and that's a work of God's, alone, coming about only by our being with God, under grace where we now live by the Spirit. And that obligation to be righteous remains with the New Covenant-and it's not guaranteed that the obligation will be met because we must play our little role in its fulfillment. For example:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

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Walking/living according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

"Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matt 23:26

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Jesus points out numerous times in scripture that the righteousness of the Pharisees was defective. They were self righteous.

And it's not really correct to say that works of faith make us righteous in God's eyes:

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It certainly is not correct.

love is what makes man just or righteous in His eyes which is why the greatest commandments what they are. And love works, by its nature, for the good of others. Faith is meant to establish us in this righteousness, this love, because faith means we're now operating in unison with God, the very source of love/righteousness, in living our lives. It establishes us in Him, Goodness and Righteousness itself, 'apart from whom we can do nothing'. So everything born of faith is good. And the primary goodness to result is love:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

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Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love." (Ephesians 2:8) All who are born of God are not without love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Danthemailman said:

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic and I clarified to him that we are saved through faith and not by works. The Roman Catholic agreed with me and stated that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works. Afterward, he contradicted himself by saying that we are saved through faith + "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law).

That Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works yet afterward stating that we are saved by "works of faith" and just not "works of the law" and about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

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You completely ignore clear ordinances to do works such as sheep and goats, and the consequence, He clearly states, of not doing them.

As Catholics we believe that we must do what we are asked even though these works can never be sufficient to save, but you are on false ground if you think you can ignore them.

It is called formed faith. Even a section of the Lutheran church agreed with Holy See that true faith needed charity. Even the devil “ believes”

I suggest you practice your theological argument for the judgement when He says “ but I asked you to feed the hungry”
How will you reply? Will you say “ but you said in John that all I must do is confess you are Lord”
And He May say I told you “ not all who call me Lord, will be saved”,
“You ignored what I asked, and worse told others they did not need to...I do not know you.”


That is the problem with academic theological arguments on faith alone used by evangelicals. It is overthinking at its worst, at the expense of obedience. If they studied holistically not cherry picked verses, they would know NEITHER their faith NOR their works were enough to save them.

They rely on His GRACE ALONE . Do they really expect they can ignore what He asks of them, and worse, lead others to do the same, and still be given grace? They are taking an unnecessary gamble, if they think they can win a theological argument with our Lord to explain why they ignored Him!

It is not just a theological game. None of us can rely on grace, certainly not if we do not do what is stated. We must run a true race to the end and then hope for His mercy.

prodromos said:

Interesting how a question to Catholics and Orthodox has now devolved into an argument between two people who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox.

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That's why I recommended the OP post the question in OBOB and TAW so they would get more constructive answers.

Mountainmike said:

You completely ignore clear ordinances to do works such as sheep and goats, and the consequence of not doing them.

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I don't ignore them at all. In regards to works, we are created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) We are saved for good works and not by good works.

In regards to the parable of the sheep and goats, when works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of and not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow and are produced out of. So it's understandable that in this parable that Jesus would stress works as a manifestation of faith and an indication of one's salvation status. Notice how love for other Christians is also an indication of one's salvation status. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" and not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of passing from death to life and not the condition of passing from death to life. We must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

As Catholics we believe that we must do what we are asked even though these works can never be sufficient to save, you are on false ground if you think you can ignore them.

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Who said I ignore them? I just put works in their proper place. Subsequent to having been saved by grace through faith. One is on false ground if one believers they will be saved based on their works.

It is called formed faith. Even a section of the Lutheran church agreed with Holy See that true faith needed charity.

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James talks about the difference between a living faith and a dead faith in James 2:14-24. Paul clearly points out what a living faith looks like. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

I suggest you practice your theological argument for the judgement when He says “but I asked you to feed the hungry”
How will you reply? Will you say “but you said in John that all I must do is confess you are Lord”
And he will say I told you “not all who call me Lord, will be saved”,
You ignored what I asked, and worse told others they did not need to...I do not know you.

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I have fed the hungry and have produced good works in my Christian walk, but that is not what saved me. Don't end up like these many people in Matthew 7:21-23 who were trusting in works for salvation, but were not true converts.

That is the problem with silly theological arguments on faith alone used by evangelicals. If they studied holistically not cherry picked verses, they would know NEITHER their faith NOR their works were enough to save them.

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The term "faith alone" is often misunderstood by works salvationists.

They rely on His grace alone. Do they really expect they can ignore what He asks of them, and worse, lead others to do the same, and still be given grace? They are taking a silly gamble, if they think they can win a theological argument with our Lord to explain why they ignored Him!

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Man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) whether you accept that or not. Good works follow having been saved through faith and are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

Works are not subsequent at all. They are ongoing,

Because you have not been saved till the end.

There are initial ( baptism) current and future aspects to salvation, it is not a one time thing. Only “ He who endures to the end “ WILL be saved

He who “ gnaws” my flesh etc. Which John taught was the Eucharist. Which needs the bishops to be valid, so johns disciples tell us,

Nor is it automatic you do works. Every day you have a choice. Do or not do. You can choose to be a goat from now on. With the consequence Jesus states. So you cannot be saved by works, but your salvation depends on your choice to do them.

Like many you criticise Catholic belief without ever understanding it.

Woe betide those who tell our Lord “ I WAS saved when I ...”

Danthemailman said:

I don't ignore them at all. In regards to works, we are created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) We are saved for good works and not by good works.

In regards to the parable of the sheep and goats, when works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of and not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow and are produced out of. So it's understandable that in this parable that Jesus would stress works as a manifestation of faith and an indication of one's salvation status. Notice how love for other Christians is also an indication of one's salvation status. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" and not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of passing from death to life and not the condition of passing from death to life. We must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

Who said I ignore them? I just put works in their proper place. Subsequent to having been saved by grace through faith. One is on false ground if one believers they will be saved based on their works.

James talks about the difference between a living faith and a dead faith in James 2:14-24. Paul clearly points out what a living faith looks like. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

I have fed the hungry and have produced good works in my Christian walk, but that is not what saved me. Don't end up like these many people in Matthew 7:21-23 who were trusting in works for salvation, but were not true converts.

The term "faith alone" is often misunderstood by works salvationists.

Man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) whether you accept that or not. Good works follow having been saved through faith and are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

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Mountainmike said:

Works are not subsequent at all. They are ongoing,

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Of course works are ongoing. Subsequent does not imply that they are not ongoing, only that they follow having been justified/accounted as righteous/saved through faith. Good works which are produced out of faith do not precede salvation through faith, but follow. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Because you have not been saved till the end.

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We have not been saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) till the end, but believers have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) before the end. (Romans 5:1)

There are initial (baptism) current and future aspects to salvation, it is not a one time thing. Only “ He who endures to the end “ WILL be saved

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There are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

So you cannot be saved by works, but your salvation depends on your choice to do them.

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Sounds like an oxymoron.

Like many you criticise Catholic belief without ever understanding it.

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I grew up in the Roman Catholic church.

Woe betide those who tell our Lord “ I WAS saved when I ...”

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By the words of Jesus here are those who are saved. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) In 1 John 5:11-13, we read -And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Praise God!

Danthemailman said:

Of course works are ongoing. Subsequent does not imply that they are not ongoing, only that they follow having been justified/accounted as righteous/saved through faith. Good works which are produced out of faith do not precede salvation through faith, but follow. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

We have not been saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) till the end, but believers have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) before the end. (Romans 5:1)

There are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

Sounds like an oxymoron.

I grew up in the Roman Catholic church.

By the words of Jesus here are those who are saved. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) In 1 John 5:11-13, we read -And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Praise God!

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You may have grown up in the Catholic Church: It seems you were badly catechised. I came in from outside, I discovered many cradle catholics who didn’t know the basis of their faith, and so were victim to false challenges from outside.

But First work on your logic.
Necessary does not mean sufficient.
So not an oxymoron.
That is why you fail to see that saved by works is a false representation of the necessity to do them.

Compliance with one of our Lords ordinances does not allow you to ignore the rest, whatever verse you choose to bold. You need to read the rest, then the early fathers, tradition and authority to see what they mean.

Nor are you an automaton. You choose what you do each day. Our Lord chooses at the end whether you are saved.

Mountainmike said:

You completely ignore clear ordinances to do works such as sheep and goats, and the consequence, He clearly states, of not doing them.

As Catholics we believe that we must do what we are asked even though these works can never be sufficient to save, but you are on false ground if you think you can ignore them.

It is called formed faith. Even a section of the Lutheran church agreed with Holy See that true faith needed charity. Even the devil “ believes”

I suggest you practice your theological argument for the judgement when He says “ but I asked you to feed the hungry”
How will you reply? Will you say “ but you said in John that all I must do is confess you are Lord”
And He May say I told you “ not all who call me Lord, will be saved”,
“You ignored what I asked, and worse told others they did not need to...I do not know you.”


That is the problem with academic theological arguments on faith alone used by evangelicals. It is overthinking at its worst, at the expense of obedience. If they studied holistically not cherry picked verses, they would know NEITHER their faith NOR their works were enough to save them.

They rely on His GRACE ALONE . Do they really expect they can ignore what He asks of them, and worse, lead others to do the same, and still be given grace? They are taking an unnecessary gamble, if they think they can win a theological argument with our Lord to explain why they ignored Him!

It is not just a theological game. None of us can rely on grace, certainly not if we do not do what is stated. We must run a true race to the end and then hope for His mercy.

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Out of curiosity, Do you Actually make it a point to deliberately visit Jews in prison, feed them and given shelter to them, and visit hospitalised Jews now, as Jesus instructed in the sheep and the goats lesson in Matthew 25:34-46?

thecolorsblend said:

It's a cooperative endeavor. God offers, man accepts. This idea that we play no role at all in the process is absurd.

Even people who believe in "faith alone" have to reconcile the fact that the word "believe" is an action. It's a verb. It's a work.

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Scientifically, work is using force to cause an action Believing something is just thinking, not working. The "work" therefore must be your actions that exercise your beliefs in and love for the triune God.