Are You Doing Enough?

True Counterphobia said:

The Will of God is to love God

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I would agree up to here. He wants you to put Him first in everything. If you do not, then He will not forgive, or offer any type of grace AT ALL. But how do you know there exists an agent there to actually love you back?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?...................???????????

The rest below, can be most/all grace alone. Let's again use your "dental analogy"...

You have eight missing teeth, 5 deep cavities, and inflamed gums. His grace acts as the 'repair' for all the areas He deems 'imperfect'.

Another, whom also loves God, may only have two cavities. The dentist needs to provide much less repair/grace for this person to make a 'perfect dental outcome'.

Hence, your rotten mouth, verses your neighbor's 'better' mouth, then become arbitrary. God is already offering His grace to make you both 'whole', since you both love Him. The only REQUIREMENT of you both is to pledge complete allegiance/love to him. I doubt your dentist requires this however...

True Counterphobia said:

and to love others as you love yourself - the greatest two commandments.

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The second Commandment is not a requirement, as grace acts as the dental repair(s) here.

All people will do some 'good', and some 'bad', whether you are a believer or not.

True Counterphobia said:

You will notice that the first commandment is the greatest and from this flows the other.

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I'm continuing to notice it's the only one required, for which there exists no room for any grace - as a substitute.

True Counterphobia said:

If you love God, it will enable you to love others as you love yourself. You will notice loving yourself comes last, not second.

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I doubt this is the case, however. This means you love your enemies, or the vagrant in the street, more than you love yourself. Do you really? I somehow doubt this....

But regardless, it does not matter. Under the concept of grace, all is pardoned.

The rest of your response below is going off tangent....

True Counterphobia said:

Just because I did not answer the question to your satisfaction, does not mean I did not adequately answer the question. I gave the illustration I did to show that I would not put it in those terms thereby taking the experiential manifestation out of the equation like you have done. So I find it silly you are talking about what you have experienced right about now.

No, it takes the Holy Spirit living in you to be saved. Everything else, repentance, Good works, worship, are just evidence of your faith, not the real McCoy.

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1. Is it possible to profess love for an agent which does not actually exist?

2. How do you know you have the "Holy Spirit" within you?

3. Is it possible to invoke the [golden rule] without claiming love for a perceived creator?

True Counterphobia said:

From who's perspective does grace ultimately render all other sin and works arbitrary in your opinion? Because it doesn't in mine.

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You have almost already conceded the point entirely, in post #194, when you stated "Sure, you can say, "God is going to condemn/save me so there's no point in anything" but that kinda takes the whole life out of life for you personally."

I'm just attempting to get you to instead say it outright.

Moral Orel said:

So you do have to work at being a good person to earn salvation. How hard do you have to try?

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That's not what I said.

cvanwey said:

1. Is it possible to profess love for an agent which does not actually exist?

2. How do you know you have the "Holy Spirit" within you?

3. Is it possible to invoke the [golden rule] without claiming love for a perceived creator?



You have almost already conceded the point entirely, in post #194, when you stated "Sure, you can say, "God is going to condemn/save me so there's no point in anything" but that kinda takes the whole life out of life for you personally."

I'm just attempting to get you to instead say it outright.

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1. Do you believe God does not exist?
2. Personally, I know because God answers my prayers.
3. In a superficial way, sure.

My point regarding what it means to be saved was lost on you, obviously, because you can't understand because you are not saved. I'll tell you what I recently told you how you know how you are saved: Do you want to do the Will of God? If yes, you are saved. Any other answer and you are not. We had this conversation already. You don't/can't understand because you don't have the Holy Spirit living in you.

You feel God rejected you because you never "felt" anything. Being saved is more than about an emotional high. It's a commitment to God, just like a marriage is a commitment to your spouse. You can't say you are married to someone if you are just dating them. If you are wondering, there is a passage that addresses specifically this.

James 1:5 ¶ If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
James 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Further, if you are just asking for God to do something for you without testing in your Spirit if it is from God, then don't expect God to answer any way you would want Him to.

cvanwey said:

I would agree up to here. He wants you to put Him first in everything. If you do not, then He will not forgive, or offer any type of grace AT ALL. But how do you know there exists an agent there to actually love you back?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?...................???????????

The rest below, can be most/all grace alone. Let's again use your "dental analogy"...

You have eight missing teeth, 5 deep cavities, and inflamed gums. His grace acts as the 'repair' for all the areas He deems 'imperfect'.

Another, whom also loves God, may only have two cavities. The dentist needs to provide much less repair/grace for this person to make a 'perfect dental outcome'.

Hence, your rotten mouth, verses your neighbor's 'better' mouth, then become arbitrary. God is already offering His grace to make you both 'whole', since you both love Him. The only REQUIREMENT of you both is to pledge complete allegiance/love to him. I doubt your dentist requires this however...



The second Commandment is not a requirement, as grace acts as the dental repair(s) here.

All people will do some 'good', and some 'bad', whether you are a believer or not.



I'm continuing to notice it's the only one required, for which there exists no room for any grace - as a substitute.



I doubt this is the case, however. This means you love your enemies, or the vagrant in the street, more than you love yourself. Do you really? I somehow doubt this....

But regardless, it does not matter. Under the concept of grace, all is pardoned.

The rest of your response below is going off tangent....

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Since this all has to do with salvation, I will reply to all of this with one response. I am telling you this as a courtesy.

One does not regenerate themselves. God regenerates and we receive.

Moral Orel said:

Oh... okay. So I don't have to be a good person at all to get eternal salvation. Seems weird.

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Depends on the circumstances.

Moral Orel said:

How so?

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Depends on where you start for one thing. A drug dealer might get saved and still struggle with certain sins that John Doe doesn't have to worry about because he lives in some pristine suburb. God works with us where we are at. God does expect certain things from us, and these will be present depending on the individual and their walk with God. There should be an aspect of sanctification in a Christians life. Not that this saves, but it should show the person is overall more and more orienting themselves toward loving God and loving others. This is going to look different for everyone, but it should still be present in every believer.

True Counterphobia said:

1. Do you believe God does not exist?
2. Personally, I know because God answers my prayers.
3. In a superficial way, sure.

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1. I asked you a direct yes or no question. Please answer. Is it POSSIBLE to profess love for an agent which does not actually exist? yes or no?

2. Does He answer all your prayers, some, less? Is there some sort of rubric you can use, to determine He is actually intervening, verses random chance?

3. What does it really matter of the reason, if you are actually treating others like you want to be treated? You can be God fearing alone, not like consequences, have empathy, like the person you are helping, other other other.

True Counterphobia said:

My point regarding what it means to be saved was lost on you, obviously, because you can't understand because you are not saved. I'll tell you what I recently told you how you know how you are saved: Do you want to do the Will of God? If yes, you are saved. Any other answer and you are not. We had this conversation already. You don't/can't understand because you don't have the Holy Spirit living in you.

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It is you whom does not understand. I already told you... I asked for Him to come into my life for decades. I have/had no perceived contact. It's kind of hard to profess your love for an agent for which you doubt it's existence, isn't it?

True Counterphobia said:

You feel God rejected you because you never "felt" anything. Being saved is more than about an emotional high. It's a commitment to God, just like a marriage is a commitment to your spouse. You can't say you are married to someone if you are just dating them. If you are wondering, there is a passage that addresses specifically this.

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This response makes no sense.

1. If I never receive any response, than I'm likely either talking to myself, or He's there, but ignoring me. Either way, love might be hard to come by.

2. In a marriage, I know my partner exists, so we already have a 'leg up' in this scenario.

True Counterphobia said:

Further, if you are just asking for God to do something for you without testing in your Spirit if it is from God, then don't expect God to answer any way you would want Him to.

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I asked, in earnest for decades, and nothing.

Now can you please admit what I've been stating to you all along?

If you profess your love for God, virtually all sin and works then become arbitrary, through grace. You were almost there in post #194. I know you can finally do it

True Counterphobia said:

Since this all has to do with salvation, I will reply to all of this with one response. I am telling you this as a courtesy.

One does not regenerate themselves. God regenerates and we receive.

Click to expand...

I asked to receive, but feel I did not. God is either 1) ignoring me, or maybe, 2) He does not exist. Which of the two choices is more likely 1) or 2)?

cvanwey said:

1. I asked you a direct yes or no question. Please answer. Is it POSSIBLE to profess love for an agent which does not actually exist? yes or no?

2. Does He answer all your prayers, some, less? Is there some sort of rubric you can use, to determine He is actually intervening, verses random chance?

3. What does it really matter of the reason, if you are actually treating others like you want to be treated? You can be God fearing alone, not like consequences, have empathy, like the person you are helping, other other other.



It is you whom does not understand. I already told you... I asked for Him to come into my life for decades. I have/had no perceived contact. It's kind of hard to profess your love for an agent for which you doubt it's existence, isn't it?



This response makes no sense.

1. If I never receive any response, than I'm likely either talking to myself, or He's there, but ignoring me. Either way, love might be hard to come by.

2. In a marriage, I know my partner exists, so we already have a 'leg up' in this scenario.



I asked, in earnest for decades, and nothing.

Now can you please admit what I've been stating to you all along?

If you profess your love for God, virtually all sin and works then become arbitrary, through grace. You were almost there in post #194. I know you can finally do it

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It is clear to me you are pushing an agenda. I know this because @Moral Orel was asking very similar questions that you are asking, but I gave them a different response because you are pushing for certain answers.

Moral Orel said:

So, how hard do you need to work?

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With everything in you, knowing you will fail and will have to come to God in repentance.

cvanwey said:

I asked to receive, but feel I did not. God is either 1) ignoring me, or maybe, 2) He does not exist. Which of the two choices is more likely 1) or 2)?

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How do you know you didn't receive salvation?

True Counterphobia said:

It is clear to me you are pushing an agenda. I know this because @Moral Orel was asking very similar questions that you are asking, but I gave them a different response because you are pushing for certain answers.

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My objective is very clear.

1. I'm asking you to simply reconcile that all that is necessary for salvation appears to be expressing your love for God. God covers all other 'sin', and the lack of 'works', by His grace alone. This renders many of your actions arbitrary. And yet, the Bible is filled with 'does' and 'do nots'? Quite odd, if they are not obligatory in salvation?

2. The claim to answered prayer has been expressed from people of differing religions as well. You cannot all be right, but you can certainly all be wrong. So I ask you again... How do you know you have been contacted by the Holy Ghost?

True Counterphobia said:

How do you know you didn't receive salvation?

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Because when I prayed to Him, I received no response. I continued to talk to myself. Thus, He is either ignoring me, I'm too dumb, or there exists no God. What is MOST likely?

Moral Orel said:

Good. So let's talk about selfishness, specifically. The goal would be to never put your wants before the needs of others, right? Even though we'll never achieve perfection, we should strive for perfection, and feel bad when we fall short, yes? Of course God will forgive you if you screw up, but you have to feel bad about it, correct?

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The goal would be to do what God wants you to do. Sometimes God wants us to take care of ourselves. It's in one of the great commandments. Loving others has a qualification: as you love yourself. Selfishness, to me, is things like envy, jealousy, covetousness, stealing, hatred and the like.