Are You Doing Enough?

[bling]

This response just reinforced my prior reply, in post #144:

"If God already knows the outcome, God is ultimately watching 're-runs'."

Let me try again: “God is not watching a rerun” but sees it the first and only time it happens. If a person in the future filmed your tomorrow actions, sent the film to me and I watch it today and watched you tomorrow, would watching it tomorrow be a rerun or would I be watching the first and only time tomorrow happened both times. You are not doing the same thing two different times.

Catholics believe in "original sin". Hence, require baptism to wash away this sin. You are effectively saying Catholics are wrong.

Yes

I doubt hardly anyone would be happier in 'hell', as described in the NT.

I did not say people would be happier in hell, just some would not be happy with heaven.

The Bible states most will apparently go to hell (Matthew 7:14). It would behoove all believers to then assure all off-spring die before enlightenment. Otherwise, it's likely many loved ones may never make it to heaven, under any circumstance.

And besides, you have absolutely no idea how Heaven actually works

I only need to know heaven is where God is and hell is where God is not.

God is providing a way for willing individuals to become like He is, in that they have Godly type Love. Yes, this will also mean Christ will have to be tortured, humiliated and murdered and some people will not choose to go to heaven, but that is their free will choice.

Sounds like you just confirmed my prior response again. 'Sin' appears arbitrary. If you accept this free gift, you are saved. Please remember, all will 'sin', regardless of accepting this gift or not. "Sin' appears to be arbitrary in the mist of salvation. The only true 'sin' is disbelief. The rest is forgiven, as long as you take the gift.

Hence, Stalin can have a true death bed confession, accept Jesus's gift, and be saved. A doubting life-long philanthropist is apparently eternally damned.

It is hard to change on your deathbed, but it could be possible.

You have absolutely no idea who I am. Just like I do not know who you are. So please do not act like you know me

You have described Christians from what I assume you was your personal experience?

 

[cvanwey]

Let me try again: “God is not watching a rerun” but sees it the first and only time it happens. If a person in the future filmed your tomorrow actions, sent the film to me and I watch it today and watched you tomorrow, would watching it tomorrow be a rerun or would I be watching the first and only time tomorrow happened both times. You are not doing the same thing two different times.

If God does not already know the outcome, then He is not all knowing.

Yes

Seems odd that God would allow the entire sect of Catholicism to be perpetually wrong about such an axiomatic concept -- ("original sin" is or is not a thing). This likely means A) God is either not very clear in His Word, or, B) all Catholics are not well educated in God's Word?

Which one of the two is more likely?

I would like to know since I have many Catholic friends and family.

I did not say people would be happier in hell, just some would not be happy with heaven.

There's no difference. God appears to only offer up an either/or proposition - (Heaven or hell). Hence, I doubt someone would be happier in hell.

I only need to know heaven is where God is and hell is where God is not.

Please note that God is the rule maker. He can do anything He wants. He's God. God has decided to only create two realms. With Him = great! Not with Him = torture. There exists no other option(s) or choice(s). God also already knows most will go to hell. Seems rather strange, from an agent whom claims pure love? Would you lock up your kids in the dungeon for not obeying you?

God is providing a way for willing individuals to become like He is, in that they have Godly type Love. Yes, this will also mean Christ will have to be tortured, humiliated and murdered and some people will not choose to go to heaven, but that is their free will choice.

This does not address my response, please let me try again.

Assuring that all die, prior to enlightenment, guarantees them a place in heaven. A truly altruistic person would assure all their loved ones end up in the right eternal place, if they have the power to do so, and truly love these people. If you knew your offspring had a much greater chance of burning in hell eternally, and you also know of a sure-fire way for them to avoid this fate, would you allow it to happen anyways - citing "free will" alone?

***************************************************************

Now to address your actual response...

What you are describing is not what would be classified as true free will, under the basic definition (i.e.):

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

What you are describing is instead more apt to fall under being a compulsory proposition. -- Much like paying taxes, or else. You have a 'free choice' whether or not to pay taxes. But if you should not, please prepare for your punishment.

it could be possible.

Then practically the entire topic of 'sin' is completely arbitrary. All 'sin' anyways. Stalin need not do anything more, than to accept God's free gift.

You have described Christians from what I assume you was your personal experience?

I was raised Catholic. I later became nondenominational. And now I have much doubt (for many reasons). I still have friends and family in many varying sects. Many of their beliefs directly conflict with one another.

According to you, in regards to this raised topic, 'sin' is virtually arbitrary. 'Works' are virtually arbitrary. All that matters is accepting a 'free gift'.

Hence, I will ask you what @Moral Orel asked another:

If you accept this free gift, can you still choose to be a rotten person while on earth?

 

[Moral Orel]

Hence, I will ask you what @Moral Orel asked another:

If you accept this free gift, can you still choose to be a rotten person while on earth?

I think what we've learned from this thread is that Christians can do whatever they want. If it wasn't a free gift, they might have to do more or try harder, and that is definitely out of the question.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think what we've learned from this thread is that Christians can do whatever they want. If it wasn't a free gift, they might have to do more or try harder, and that is definitely out of the question.

Wow! Thanks for the lesson, MO! This'll make my Valentine's Day gift giving so much easier ...

 

[Moral Orel]

Wow! Thanks for the lesson, MO! This'll make my Valentine's Day gift giving so much easier ...

Last year I gave my wife some sexy lingerie for Valentine's Day and she said to me, "I think this is really more of a gift for you than it is for me, don't you?"

And I responded, "Well, if you want to get really technical, it was originally a gift for my last girlfriend".

 

[bling]

If God does not already know the outcome, then He is not all knowing.

God before time began knows everything that happened through out time as pure unchangeable History, so yes God knows everything.

Seems odd that God would allow the entire sect of Catholicism to be perpetually wrong about such an axiomatic concept -- ("original sin" is or is not a thing). This likely means A) God is either not very clear in His Word, or, B) all Catholics are not well educated in God's Word?

Which one of the two is more likely?

I would like to know since I have many Catholic friends and family.

The mases can be easily mislead, look at the religious Jewish leaders while Christ was on earth.

There's no difference. God appears to only offer up an either/or proposition - (Heaven or hell). Hence, I doubt someone would be happier in hell.



Please note that God is the rule maker. He can do anything He wants. He's God. God has decided to only create two realms. With Him = great! Not with Him = torture. There exists no other option(s) or choice(s). God also already knows most will go to hell. Seems rather strange, from an agent whom claims pure love? Would you lock up your kids in the dungeon for not obeying you?

People do not choose between heaven and hell.

Assuring that all die, prior to enlightenment, guarantees them a place in heaven. A truly altruistic person would assure all their loved ones end up in the right eternal place, if they have the power to do so, and truly love these people. If you knew your offspring had a much greater chance of burning in hell eternally, and you also know of a sure-fire way for them to avoid this fate, would you allow it to happen anyways - citing "free will" alone?

***************************************************************

Now to address your actual response...

What you are describing is not what would be classified as true free will, under the basic definition (i.e.):

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

What you are describing is instead more apt to fall under being a compulsory proposition. -- Much like paying taxes, or else. You have a 'free choice' whether or not to pay taxes. But if you should not, please prepare for your punishment.



Then practically the entire topic of 'sin' is completely arbitrary. All 'sin' anyways. Stalin need not do anything more, than to accept God's free gift.



I was raised Catholic. I later became nondenominational. And now I have much doubt (for many reasons). I still have friends and family in many varying sects. Many of their beliefs directly conflict with one another.

According to you, in regards to this raised topic, 'sin' is virtually arbitrary. 'Works' are virtually arbitrary. All that matters is accepting a 'free gift'.

Hence, I will ask you what @Moral Orel asked another:

If you accept this free gift, can you still choose to be a rotten person while on earth?

How does my knowing what free will choices you made yesterday keep them from being free will choices?
How would God at the end of time knowing historically all human free will choices throughout time keep them from being free will choices?
How does the simple act of God at the end of time sending back historic information to himself at the beginning of time keep keep humans from making free will choices?

 

[cvanwey]

God before time began knows everything that happened through out time as pure unchangeable History, so yes God knows everything.

Yes. If He is all knowing, He knows exactly when and how something will later unfold. Hence, it's like watching a 're-run'. He is perpetually watching 're-runs'.

The mases can be easily mislead, look at the religious Jewish leaders while Christ was on earth.

It might then be prudent for someone, with proper access, to notify the appropriate contacts within the Vatican, via the Roman Church. Millions currently believe the wrong conclusion.

Seems as though, after centuries of study, someone would have already figured out this simple conclusion; that humans are not born in sin, in need of baptism?.?.?

Since many believing humans have mucked up this simple conclusion, seems as though God Himself might want to clear up this misconception for all devout followers? Does God have this ability? If so, why does He not?

Or maybe you can notify then, if god won't? I'm sure God would not mind.

People do not choose between heaven and hell.

Maybe you are still missing what I'm saying. God can do anything. God only created two realms.

A) With Him = eternal bliss
B) W/O Him = eternal torture

God sends all humans to A) or B). Humans do not choose. And even if we had the ability to choose between A) and B) alone, how many would actively 'choose' B); while actively knowing only A) and B) are the provided choices??? Like I stated prior, probably about the same amount of people in which would actively choose between A) and B) from below:

A) Pay taxes = no punishment
B) Not pay taxes = punishment

Please reference post #182: (i.e.)

(Bling) "I did not say people would be happier in hell, just some would not be happy with heaven."
(Cvanwey) "I doubt someone would be happier in hell."

***************************

You looked to have skipped an important part in post #182. I'll condense/rephrase (please respond):

1. If you know a loved one is going to make an awful/horrendous choice, do you ever intervene physically or verbally, or, do you always allow for free will / free choice, like God seems to do?

2. If you know of a 100% way your children could end up in eternal bliss, and you also have the power to make it happen, would you? And please remember, the alternative is the high likelihood they may not go to this eternal blissful realm, but instead be sent to a place of eternal torture.

How does my knowing what free will choices you made yesterday keep them from being free will choices?

They don't. As I stated to your first initial point, you are essentially watching a 're-run'.

How would God at the end of time knowing historically all human free will choices throughout time keep them from being free will choices?

They don't. As I stated to your first initial point, you are essentially watching a 're-run'.

How does the simple act of God at the end of time sending back historic information to himself at the beginning of time keep keep humans from making free will choices?

You are missing my prior point. You can choose, regardless if someone knows what you are going to choose.

PLEASE ACTUALLY address what I wrote in post #182 (points 1. thru 4.)

free will -"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

1. What you are describing is a compulsory proposition. -- Much like paying taxes, or else. You have a 'free choice' whether or not to pay taxes. But if you should not, please prepare for your punishment.

2. The entire topic of 'sin' is completely arbitrary. All humans 'sin' anyways. Stalin need not do anything more, than to accept God's free gift.

3. According to you, in regards to this raised topic, 'sin' is virtually arbitrary. 'Works' are virtually arbitrary. All that matters is accepting a 'free gift'.

4. If you accept this free gift, can you still choose to be a rotten person to others? Yes or no?

 

[bling]

Yes. If He is all knowing, He knows exactly when and how something will later unfold. Hence, it's like watching a 're-run'. He is perpetually watching 're-runs'.

There is no “will later unfold” for the God at the end of time, everything has happened for God at the end of time, but He also exists at the beginning of time at the same time.

It might then be prudent for someone, with proper access, to notify the appropriate contacts within the Vatican, via the Roman Church. Millions currently believe the wrong conclusion.

Seems as though, after centuries of study, someone would have already figured out this simple conclusion; that humans are not born in sin, in need of baptism?.?.?

Since many believing humans have mucked up this simple conclusion, seems as though God Himself might want to clear up this misconception for all devout followers? Does God have this ability? If so, why does He not?

Or maybe you can notify then, if god won't? I'm sure God would not mind.

The Jewish religious leaders during Christ’s time on earth really knew He was from God and teaching the truth and knew John the Baptist told the truth and was from God, so why did they not obey?

Maybe you are still missing what I'm saying. God can do anything. God only created two realms.

A) With Him = eternal bliss
B) W/O Him = eternal torture

God sends all humans to A) or B). Humans do not choose. And even if we had the ability to choose between A) and B) alone, how many would actively 'choose' B); while actively knowing only A) and B) are the provided choices??? Like I stated prior, probably about the same amount of people in which would actively choose between A) and B) from below:

A) Pay taxes = no punishment
B) Not pay taxes = punishment

Please reference post #182: (i.e.)

(Bling) "I did not say people would be happier in hell, just some would not be happy with heaven."
(Cvanwey) "I doubt someone would be happier in hell."

***************************

You looked to have skipped an important part in post #182. I'll condense/rephrase (please respond):

1. If you know a loved one is going to make an awful/horrendous choice, do you ever intervene physically or verbally, or, do you always allow for free will / free choice, like God seems to do?

2. If you know of a 100% way your children could end up in eternal bliss, and you also have the power to make it happen, would you? And please remember, the alternative is the high likelihood they may not go to this eternal blissful realm, but instead be sent to a place of eternal torture.

free will -"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

1. What you are describing is a compulsory proposition. -- Much like paying taxes, or else. You have a 'free choice' whether or not to pay taxes. But if you should not, please prepare for your punishment.

2. The entire topic of 'sin' is completely arbitrary. All humans 'sin' anyways. Stalin need not do anything more, than to accept God's free gift.

3. According to you, in regards to this raised topic, 'sin' is virtually arbitrary. 'Works' are virtually arbitrary. All that matters is accepting a 'free gift'.

4. If you accept this free gift, can you still choose to be a rotten person to others? Yes or no?

It is truly a gift so it is yours to do as you please with it and cannot be stolen, lost and even God will not take it back, but you can give it away.

 

[All Becomes New]

What does it take to earn eternal salvation? If you think you know the answer, are you sure? If you aren't sure, could you do more? If you could do more, why aren't you?

Anyone who can humble themselves before Almighty God, knowing they are a sinner and they can't change that, and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ will be saved. I would add it is an ongoing process and not a "one and done" type of thing. I was recently telling my pastor that I sometimes experience a great conviction over my sin and I do what I said to do and he told me this was a kind of grace to have and experience. It is somewhat of a thing of awe that God could and does forgive me as it should be. We don't deserve it, but His grace is beautiful and merciful and Good. Yes, I am sure.

 

[cvanwey]

There is no “will later unfold” for the God at the end of time, everything has happened for God at the end of time, but He also exists at the beginning of time at the same time.

The Jewish religious leaders during Christ’s time on earth really knew He was from God and teaching the truth and knew John the Baptist told the truth and was from God, so why did they not obey?

It is truly a gift so it is yours to do as you please with it and cannot be stolen, lost and even God will not take it back, but you can give it away.

You appear to be cherry picking my responses. You are also changing the subject. Let's try this again. Please stay on track. I will further streamline all topics, for convenience:

1. If you are all knowing, then you are watching what you already know is going to happen; to the "T". This presents little difference from watching 're-runs'

2. Catholics genuinely think they must atone for 'original sin'. This has absolutely nothing to do with choosing not to obey. Why does God not offer correction for all the faithful? Since He seems not to want to, maybe you can? I know you do not need to, as God does not require any works, under your belief system. However, seems like the descent thing to do anyways, doesn't it?

3. God created two realms. -- A) Heaven and B) hell. God chooses whom goes to A) or B). Humans do not get to choose, as God is the judge and the jury. I reckon all would be happier in Heaven, being that hell is the only alternative.

4. Since you appear to have the ability to guarantee a path for your young loved one's salvation, would you refrain from doing so, to instead allow for free choice / free will? Please remember, the only alternative is hell. And according to the Bible, most are going there.

5. God does not offer 'free will'. He instead offers a compulsory proposition, like taxes.

6. Under your belief, sin and works are virtually arbitrary. Someone like Stalin need not do anything more than to accept a gift.

7. Since all that is required, is accepting this gift, can such humans then still choose to be rotten to others?

 

[cvanwey]

Anyone who can humble themselves before Almighty God, knowing they are a sinner and they can't change that, and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ will be saved.

Doesn't this kind of render most 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary; outside of unbelief, repent, and worship to God?

 

[All Becomes New]

Doesn't this kind of render most 'sin' and 'works' arbitrary; outside of unbelief, repent, and worship to God?

It doesn't erase the fact that we still sin and it doesn't mean we can do any Good outside of God because we are temporal creatures who exist in time and not outside of it.

 

[cvanwey]

It doesn't erase the fact that we still sin and it doesn't mean we can do any Good outside of God because we are temporal creatures who exist in time and not outside of it.

But sin/works is still virtually arbitrary. It does not matter whether you 'sin' or not. As long as you believe, repent, and worship this God, you will still 'sin' and fail to do 'good works' repeatedly, up until the point of your death.

Effectively, the only difference, in your said case, between an atheist, a believer of another god(s), and [you], is that you opted to worship this specific God. You will all still 'sin', until death.

 

[All Becomes New]

But sin/works is still virtually arbitrary. It does not matter whether you 'sin' or not. As long as you believe, repent, and worship this God, you will still 'sin' and fail to do 'good works' repeatedly, up until the point of your death.

Effectively, the only difference, in your said case, between an atheist, a believer of another god(s), and [you], is that you opted to worship this specific God. You will all still 'sin', until death.

Just because I am counted righteous according to God's sight, does not mean that it is "arbitrary" whether I sin or do a Good work.

What you are saying is something like this: You go to the dentist so it is arbitrary for you to brush your teeth.

I mean, sure, the dentist will fill your cavities if you never brush your teeth but it's silly to say brushing your teeth is arbitrary.

It's like you don't have a sense of what is good for you or not. Should you care about what is good for you and what is bad for you? I would argue the vast majority of people would think it is very important in knowing what is good for them and bad for them because they all behave that way.

It's like you are trying to take the idea of behaviors completely out of the equation, at which point, it doesn't really matter what you do at all because you're going to end up in the ground anyways.

So what's the point in anything if it doesn't matter what sins and Good works you do?

Your problem is that you are trying to answer the question from God's perspective, not your own. Sure, you can say, "God is going to condemn/save me so there's no point in anything" but that kinda takes the whole life out of life for you personally.

Further, if you think you know the mind of God and you are not even a Christian, woe to you, ignorant fool! It would be better to apply you mind towards what is right and wrong and being wrong about everything then to act like you know the mind of God and be wrong about everything.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[cvanwey]

Just because I am counted righteous according to God's sight, does not mean that it is "arbitrary" whether I sin or do a Good work.

Yes it is.

What you are saying is something like this: You go to the dentist so it is arbitrary for you to brush your teeth.

I mean, sure, the dentist will fill your cavities if you never brush your teeth but it's silly to say brushing your teeth is arbitrary.

I brush my teeth to avoid/delay painful cavities, uphold better breath, keep from having yellow teeth, avoid/delay other related health problems, and to avoid/delay the dental drill as long as possible.

But now yer getting it All that matters, in Christianity, is that you believe, repent, and worship. The rest does not really matter, as it is covered by His grace.

It's like you don't have a sense of what is good for you or not.

In regards to what category, dentistry or God?

Should you care about what is good for you and what is bad for you? I would argue the vast majority of people would think it is very important in knowing what is good for them and bad for them because they all behave that way.

In regards to what category; dentistry, God, or other?

It's like you are trying to take the idea of behaviors completely out of the equation, at which point, it doesn't really matter what you do at all because you're going to end up in the ground anyways.

In what sense? In regards to your belief in the Christian God, 'atheism', or other?

So what's the point in anything if it doesn't matter what sins and Good works you do?

Exactly! As long as you believe, repent, and worship, you are golden apparently.

Your problem is that you are trying to answer the question from God's perspective, not your own.

Incorrect. I'm merely reaching a conclusion, via the input data [you] provided.

Sure, you can say, "God is going to condemn/save me so there's no point in anything" but that kinda takes the whole life out of life for you personally.

Not my 'problem' either. I'm merely expressing a basic observation. 'Sin' and 'works' are virtually arbitrary, outside belief, repent, and worship to Him. If this agreed upon conclusion bothers you, I'm sorry.

Further, if you think you know the mind of God and you are not even a Christian, woe to you, ignorant fool!

Again, you are incorrect. I'm merely reaching a conclusion, using the provided data you gave to me.

But thank you for calling me a name. It's a good thing 'sin' does not matter in this case. God will apparently offer His grace here for you.

It would be better to apply you mind towards what is right and wrong and being wrong about everything then to act like you know the mind of God and be wrong about everything.

Please see my many repeated responses above

 

[All Becomes New]

I'm merely expressing a basic observation. 'Sin' and 'works' are virtually arbitrary, outside belief, repent, and worship to Him. If this agreed upon conclusion bothers you, I'm sorry.

You are glib with your responses which means you assume you understand what it means to be saved when you don't.
You still think being saved is about behaviors and not about a condition of your heart. This is an imposed, self referential on what it is like to be saved when you admit you have no experience with this.

You have a fatal heart condition and it is going to kill you.

How to tell if you are saved? Do you care about doing the will of God? Yes means you are saved. Anything else means you are not saved.

 

[cvanwey]

You are glib with your responses which means you assume you understand what it means to be saved when you don't.

You still think being saved is about behaviors and not about a condition of your heart. This is an imposed, self referential on what it is like to be saved when you admit you have no experience with this.

You have a fatal heart condition and it is going to kill you.

You did not acknowledge the very response, for which you quoted. Which means you likely agree with me. --> All that really matters is belief, repent, and worship in YHWH. This seems to erk you, so you are not addressing it, and instead changing the subject - by now going after my character. Do as you will

If such a God does exist, I would not know whom is saved and whom is not. Only God would. If God does exist, you too likely would not know what He thinks and what He wants. So please do not pretend like you do.

Unless He clearly comes down to tell us, we have no clue. And to my knowledge, He has not.

How to tell if you are saved? Do you care about doing the will of God? Yes means you are saved. Anything else means you are not saved.

Again, what exactly is the "will of God'?

 

[All Becomes New]

You did not acknowledge the very response, for which you quoted. Which means you likely agree with me. --> All that really matters is belief, repent, and worship in YHWH. This seems to erk you, so you are not addressing it, and instead changing the subject - by now going after my character. Do as you will

If such a God does exist, I would not know whom is saved and whom is not. Only God would. If God does exist, you too likely would not know what He thinks and what He wants. So please do not pretend like you do.

Unless He clearly comes down to tell us, we have no clue. And to my knowledge, He has not.



Again, what exactly is the "Will of God'?

Green = What's your evidence for this? My guess is that you were trying to erk me, which is why you ask about it to make sure I am properly erkked.

You saying, "All that matters is belief, repent, and worship YHWH" is like ascribing a number to a color and thinking you know something about the color, when you have never actually seen the color, but only know the number.

The Will of God is to love God and to love others as you love yourself - the greatest two commandments. You will notice that the first commandment is the greatest and from this flows the other. If you love God, it will enable you to love others as you love yourself. You will notice loving yourself comes last, not second. That means one is to love others more than you love yourself. The self is the focal point in the second great commandment because it brings a focus to how you are supposed to love others.
Next question would be, "What does it mean to love God?" Well the answer to that is to love Him for what he has done for you. Naturally, you have to believe God exists before you can love what He has done for you. If you don't believe in God, there is no way to love what He has done for you.
Next question should be, "What has God done for me?" What God did for you was provide a means of salvation for you to experience his Goodness and mercy and to be free from the sin in your life. And God did this by sending His Son, the second part of the Trinity of God, down to earth to dwell in the form of a man to die for you as a substitute for what you should have experienced. It also means that after the Son died, He was raised up in glory and resurrected. Further, it means the Son sent the Holy Spirit to you after He ascended into heaven to be with God the Father. And the Holy Spirit is meant to keep you from sinning and to enable you to do Good works as well as a variety of other beneficial things for you.
Next question should be, "What about the people who lived before the Son came to die?" The answer is that when the Son died, He descended to Hades to save those who were faithful to Him before he came back to earth to tell his immediate disciples the full story of his life, death, and resurrection.

 

[cvanwey]

Green = What's your evidence for this?

In my experience, when an interlocutor feels they are loosing an exchange, they either a) no longer address it, b) change the subject, or c) go after their interlocutor's character. You, my friend, have presented all three actions.

So I ask you, point/blank... 1) Is belief, repent, and worship, all it takes to be granted access to Heaven? (yes or no) 2) Does grace ultimately render all other sin and works arbitrary? (yes or no)

I say (yes) to both questions. How about you?

And thank you for providing the 'dental analogy'. It only strengthens my position. Why?

We now have dentists to fix all jacked up teeth. So yes, if a person with jacked up teeth can opt to go to a dentist to fix their teeth, then their prior jacked up teeth becomes arbitrary -- as it is then nothing more than a bad memory or a talking point.

My guess is that you were trying to erk me, which is why you ask about it to make sure I am properly erkked.

Then you guessed wrong. My conclusion is based upon your actual responses to my questions. Please see a), b), and c) above.

You saying, "All that matters is belief, repent, and worship YHWH" is like ascribing a number to a color and thinking you know something about the color, when you have never actually seen the color, but only know the number.

You have failed to demonstrate why my synopsis is incorrect. And I'm even willing to bet you agree with me. God's grace apparently covers all believer's 'sin' and lack in 'good works'. Hence, these two categories become arbitrary.

******************

I'll respond to the rest later

 

[All Becomes New]

In my experience, when an interlocutor feels they are loosing an exchange, they either a) no longer address it, b) change the subject, or c) go after their interlocutor's character. You, my friend, have presented all three actions.

Just because I did not answer the question to your satisfaction, does not mean I did not adequately answer the question. I gave the illustration I did to show that I would not put it in those terms thereby taking the experiential manifestation out of the equation like you have done. So I find it silly you are talking about what you have experienced right about now.

So I ask you, point/blank... 1) Is belief, repent, and worship, all it takes to be granted access to Heaven? (yes or no) 2) Does grace ultimately render all other sin and works arbitrary? (yes or no)

No, it takes the Holy Spirit living in you to be saved. Everything else, repentance, Good works, worship, are just evidence of your faith, not the real McCoy. From who's perspective does grace ultimately render all other sin and works arbitrary in your opinion? Because it doesn't in mine.

We now have dentists to fix all jacked up teeth. So yes, if a person with jacked up teeth can opt to go to a dentist to fix their teeth, then their prior jacked up teeth becomes arbitrary -- as it is then nothing more than a bad memory or a talking point.

So memories are arbitrary now?

You have failed to demonstrate why my synopsis is incorrect. And I'm even willing to bet you agree with me. God's grace apparently covers all believer's 'sin' and lack in 'good works'. Hence, these two categories become arbitrary.

Because it is incomplete. See what I said about the Holy Spirit to see why.