Know your Bible! Wolves among the Sheep.

aiki said:

Feel free to show how, exactly.



This is works-salvation, which is a false Gospel that I reject utterly. Obedience is the fruit of salvation, never the means of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7.



Says the one espousing works-salvation.



Do you?

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You've done it again! --Responding to something I haven't said is illogical at best and dishonest at worst.

The scriptures clearly show that belief precedes works--that is what I believe--moreover, I've said nothing, at all, that can be twisted to mean the contrary; yet here you are, yet again, twisting what I've said, and then responding to it...

What is most telling of all, is that none of what I've said is my own, but the Lord's.

What you're for, or against, doesn't concern me: I'm here promoting the Lord and His kingdom, and exhorting all who believe to keep the faith, lest they have believed in vain.

Religiot said:

The scriptures clearly show that belief precedes works

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Not intending to get into your debate with aiki, whose same post I did question, and have yet to receive a response, one question for you: belief precedes works, but does belief precede work (John 6:27)?

genez said:

The alleged "Spirit" guided always get caught in their mistakes because of the academic understanding. Its the foundation to build upon.

Keep in mind. When Jesus corrected the religious hypocrites he would often say.. "It is written."

We should do likewise, or we will end up jamming with the word of God and bending the chords... and carelessly having a demon take over the mood of our song.

Is that a Gretsch with a Bixby?


grace and peace.....

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Heeding The Holy Spirit during Bible study will never disagree with God's Holy Writ, simply because God's Holy Writ didn't come by the will of man, but by The Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Yes, that appears to be a Gretsch with a Bigsby vibrato. That's not me, it's just a stock photo.

For you to be reminded:

James 1:
2 Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles of any kind come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.

5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

Asking wisdom from God is possible, and it will help you understand scriptures and even help you with situations that seems convoluted in which way to go about it.

Rene Loup said:

Here is an interesting article I have had bookmarked for a while:

What happens when we twist Scripture to fit culture​

What happens when we twist Scripture to fit culture​

All of us, myself included, need to be careful of this. Please God, not man.

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Good article, thanks.

I'm going to repeat what I posted on the matter of man's learning and culture applied to study of God's Word vs. The Holy Spirit as Guide when studying God's Word.

"27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”


That, as I said before, is from ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist. It's one of 45 strategic goals that Communism has against the Christian West.

What is that "social religion" idea the children of darkness that infiltrate push in the Churches? It's the very idea of man's culture and fleshy understanding applied as a requirement to understand God's Word. And I don't mean basic learning, like understanding the idea of Bible languages, metaphor, parable, allegory, etc. Those are only communication tools of a type we all must use for this world. But there is another type, a more important type, and it is from The Holy Spirit directing our understanding as we study, opening up God's Word to our spirit. This is why Apostle Paul said the following...

1 Cor 2:9-16
9 But as it is written, 'Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.'

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV

In contrast, what Paul is talking about there is the idea of "revealed religion" by The Holy Spirit.

An example of this?

Apostle Paul himself was probably one of the best examples. Before Lord Jesus struck Saul down on the road to Damascus, Saul was following the blind Pharisees, and had a letter of authority to go hunt down Christians and bring them captive back to Jerusalem for trial. Saul as he was called then, even held the coats of those who stoned Christ's prophet Stephen. Yet Saul was an excellent Old Testament Bible scholar, having been educated by the leading Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel. Also, Saul had to have known about The Gospel, otherwise how would he recognize what doctrine Christians had in order to hunt them? Yet Saul was spiritually blinded in God's Word about The Gospel, even though The Gospel is covered in the Old Testament Books regarding Messiah's coming.

Davy said:

Those are only communication tools of a type we all must use for this world. But there is another type, a more important type, and it is from The Holy Spirit directing our understanding as we study, opening up God's Word to our spirit. This is why Apostle Paul said the following...

1 Cor 2:9-16

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Maybe you or others have hit this already, but Paul also said:

NKJ Ephesians 4:11-16 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Thoughts?

Ephesians 4:
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.

18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.

20But this is not the way you came to know Christ.

21Surely you heard of Him and were taught in Him—in keeping with the truth that is in Jesus—

22to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

23to be renewed in the spirit of your minds;

24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one another.

26“Be angry, yet do not sin.”d Do not let the sun set upon your anger,

27and do not give the devil a foothold.

28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing good with his own hands, that he may have something to share with the one in need.

29Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen.

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice.

32Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

GDL said:

Maybe you or others have hit this already, but Paul also said:

NKJ Ephesians 4:11-16 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Thoughts?

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Yes, and that means rebuke to when it is against the doctrines of Christ (Titus 1:9-16).

Since we are on the subject... Salvation by works?

Works is a system devised by religious men of things to do to win God's approval.

Yet? The unbeliever will be judged not according to his sins. But, by his works.



Contradiction? Not saved by works (a religious system to live by). Yet? Evaluated by God and condemned, by evaluating their works? Believers will be also evaluated by their works but remain saved. (1 Cor 3:11-15)

So if we are not saved by works? Works = plurality - a system of devised religion to win God's favor.

So? The works of the unbeliever will be evaluated why?

For Jesus said that there is ONE WORK (not works) that saves!

The Jews because of the Pharisees religious tyranny had become preoccupied with doing works for salvation. That is why his disciples asked Jesus the following...



Only one work (believing) is not a man made religious system of works for salvation!

We are not saved by "works. " Yet, one works saves. Believing in Christ!


God makes us able by grace to believe, and we are saved when we choose to believe (by grace).

(please do not ignore this one)


grace and peace......

GDL said:

Not intending to get into your debate with aiki, whose same post I did question, and have yet to receive a response, one question for you: belief precedes works, but does belief precede work (John 6:27)?

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If you're referring to the work of God, then 'work' precedes belief, for God has predestined us by His foreknowledge; thus God remains the first cause in all things not by us, and we are the second cause in all things through God; yet, God foreknew us--this completes the circle.

All starts with God and ends with God, and that, by His foreknowledge.

--After much consideration, I've concluded that my short answer is not enough for this very much contended subject, and will only serve to raise questions that will distract from the real issue at the heart of all these conversations, obedience; therefore, I will include a much better answer that explains, without much philosophy, what faith is, and how we are to keep it.

OBEDIENCE THAT IS WITHOUT BELIEF RENDERS WORKS THAT ARE DEAD

"For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." --Hebrews 3:3-19; 4:1-11

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." --Hebrews 6:1-2

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" --Hebrews 9:14

BELIEF THAT IS WITHOUT OBEDIENCE RENDERS FAITH THAT IS DEAD

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." --Romans 6:15-23

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." --Romans 10:8-17

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." --Romans 12:1-2

"Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." --Romans 15:15-19

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." --James 2:14-26

ALL THINGS REVEALED ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." --Romans 16:25-27

Godspeed.

aiki said:

1 John 3:23
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Looking at this verse, the apostle John indicates two things the believer is to do: believe on Christ and love others. I don't see, though, that John made the two things synonymous or even inextricably related. It seems, in his commanding both belief and love, that the former doesn't give rise to the latter necessarily. If belief did automatically produce love, or if they were synonymous, John would have only to have commanded people to believe on Christ. The love bit would have followed inevitably (if belief and love are directly tied to each other) and require no second command from John.

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Normally when I ask this question, the discussion doesn't go into the relationship between belief & love. So, this wasn't what I was asking.

Here again was my question:

GDL said:

Applying basic logic to the command in 1 John 3:23 to believe in the name of God’s Son, when one believes as commanded, what does logic tell us this person has also done?

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The question concerns only the command to believe.

First question, but maybe not important to this discussion, is whether or not this is a command to believers or to unbelievers. John discusses both initial faith and continuing faith in Christ in this letter.

Setting that aside for a moment, there is a command in this verse to believe in the name of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

What is the logical relationship between belief and obedience?

Religiot said:

If you're referring to the work of God, then 'work' precedes belief, for God has predestined us by His foreknowledge; thus God remains the first cause in all things not by us, and we are the second cause in all things through God; yet, God foreknew us--this completes the circle.

All starts with God and ends with God, and that, by His foreknowledge.

--After much consideration, I've concluded that my short answer is not enough for this very much contended subject, and will only serve to raise questions that will distract from the real issue at the heart of all these conversations, obedience; therefore, I will include a much better answer that explains, without much philosophy, what faith is, and how we are to keep it.

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Thanks for the response. I just read your 3 headings and not all the detail, since I agreed with the headings.

Religiot said:

ALL THINGS REVEALED ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." --Romans 16:25-27

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I'll take this one up a bit and then go back to my question:

I think this a very vital Scripture. I also normally point out its other bookend in Rom1:5 where Paul identifies obedience of faith among the nations on behalf of Christ as his assignment.

It's refreshing to read you post all of this.

My question was about works vs. work in initially coming to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I referenced:

NKJ John 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but [labor] for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

The insertion for clarity is mine. The point being that Jesus had no problem telling/commanding unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives.

In context He has also made clear that our belief is God's work. In essence He's saying God is working to proclaim something for you to hear (believe & obey). Jesus is then commanding unbelievers to work to listen/hear/receive/believe.

This commanded work is not works of righteousness we've done - it cannot be. But commanded work it is and it is a point about faith that begins to destroy those who take the Faith Alone concept to an extreme.

Bottom line for me, mixing the 2 discussions here, we have taken the works argument to extremes, IMO. As you likely know from what you've presented, even obedience is a works salvation for many. I think Romans 1, 16, 10; Hebrews 3; 1 John3; et.al.) make it clear that Biblical Faith & obedience to God are inextricably tied together.

aiki said:

Uh huh. Maybe, if I'm misunderstanding you so profoundly, you should do a better job of explaining yourself. Just a thought.



Very amusing! It seems to me more like you're just trying to pick fights with other believers.

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Perhaps you should ask for clarification before assuming and accusing, and then attacking...

--I'm obviously here contending for the faith: the fact that you see yourself as fighting against me is also very telling.

Davy said:

Yes, and that means rebuke to when it is against the doctrines of Christ (Titus 1:9-16).

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My point was that we both: (1) read the Scriptures under the teaching of God's Spirit, and; (2) that our Lord has given us teachers. It's not one or the other, but both.

Personal opinion & observation: At some point of growth and understanding, teachers can become a hindrance, especially where we are today technologically and spiritually - much that is not Church is called church (nothing new), many, many denominational interpretations are available globally to every screen representing themselves as the truth, many "teachers" are not Eph 4 teachers (also nothing new), etc...

aiki said:

Sadly, there are many "wolves" among the "flock of God," leading the unwary and ignorant believer into false teachings and bondage to deception. Sometimes, these "wolves" are ignorant themselves, untutored in the faith, forming strange doctrines of their own and encouraging others to take up their erroneous ideas about God's truth. Beware! There are many like this on ChristianForums!

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Amen and we need to beware of the wolves! Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.