Did Jesus drink the sour wine and gall?

ewq1938

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Ok, you are obviously unwilling to consider from a secular viewpoint that vinegar was used in the process of crucifixion to hasten death by asphyxiation. Whatever narrative you wish. It really isn't relevant to the Kingdom of God.

Where in the bible is this "death by asphyxiation"? Where is this supposed desire to drink something that would speed up his death when he was already about to die anyways? It's common knowledge the sour wine with Myrrh was for pain relief and would satisfy basic thirst. Myrrh is used in toothpaste to dull pain and is put in creams to dull the pain of arthritis and injuries etc.

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Someone who is dying of asphyxiation and who supposedly drank something which would make that condition even worse to the point of causing death to happen wouldn't be speaking after drinking. The gospels show us that Christ actually did a lot of speaking while on the cross right up to his death. Doesn't give any credence to the asphyxiation theory.

Psa 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Prophecy was fulfilled. He was thirsty, he drank and that satisfied his thirst. Nothing about speeding up his death.
 
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I believe he died by blood loss. He bled out all his blood because of his scouraging being so intense. He didn't suffocate like some claim. This is why water came out when he was stabbed by the spear. A final miracle.
 
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ewq1938

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Because that is how crucifixion killed.

That's one of many possible ways to die by crucifixion. I don't believe the texts support that he was suffering from asphyxiation. Here's what some scholars say on the matter. I know of none that say the sour wine made it harder for him to breath making death by asphyxiation happen faster.

Gill:

John 19:29
Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar,.... In a place near at hand, as Nonnus observes; not on purpose, for the sake of them that were crucified, either to refresh their spirits, or stop a too great effusion of blood, that they might continue the longer in their misery; but for the use of the soldiers who crucified Christ, vinegar being part of the allowance of Roman soldiers (m), and what they used to drink: sometimes it was mixed with water; which mixed liquor they called "Posca" (n), and was what even their generals sometimes used; as Scipio, Metellus, Trajan, Adrian, and others: vinegar was also used by the Jews for drink, as appears from Rth_2:14 and "dip thy morsel in the vinegar", which Boaz's reapers had with them in the field; "because of heat", as the commentators say (o); that being good to cool, and to extinguish thirst; for which reason the soldiers here offer it to Christ; though the Chaldee paraphrase of the above place makes it to be a kind of sauce or pap boiled in vinegar; and such an "Embamma" made of vinegar the Romans had, in which they dipped their food (p); but this here seems to be pure vinegar, and to be different from that which the other evangelists speak of, which was mingled with gall, or was sour wine with myrrh, Mat_27:34. Vinegar indeed is good to revive the spirits, and hyssop, which is after mentioned, is an herb of a sweet smell; and if the reed, which the other evangelists make mention of, was the sweet calamus, as some have thought, they were all of them things of a refreshing nature: vinegar was also used for stopping blood (q), when it flowed from wounds in a large quantity; and of the same use were sponges; hence Tertullian (r) mentions "spongias retiariorum", the sponges of the fencers, which they had with them to stop any effusion of blood that should be made in their exercises; but then it can hardly be thought that these things should be in common prepared at crucifixions for such ends, on purpose to linger out a miserable life a little longer, which would be shocking barbarity; and especially such a provision would never be, made at this time, on such an account, since the Jews sabbath drew nigh, and they were in haste to have the executions over before that came on, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on that day; for which reason they would do nothing, at this time, however, to prolong the lives of the malefactors; wherefore it is most reasonable, that this vessel of vinegar was not set for any such purpose, but was for the use of the soldiers; and therefore this being at hand when Christ signified his thirst

Barnes:

That the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst - See Psa_69:21. Thirst was one of the most distressing circumstances attending the crucifixion. The wounds were highly inflamed, and a raging fever was caused, usually, by the sufferings on the cross, and this was accompanied by insupportable thirst. See the notes at Mat_27:35. A Mameluke, or Turkish officer, was crucified, it is said in an Arabic manuscript recently translated, on the banks of the Barada River, under the castle of Damascus. He was nailed to the cross on Friday, and remained until Sunday noon, when he died. After giving an account of the crucifixion, the narrator proceeds: “I have heard this from one who witnessed it; and he thus remained until he died, patient and silent, without wailing, but looking around him to the right and the left, upon the people. But he begged for water, and none was given him; and the hearts of the people were melted with compassion for him, and with pity on one of God’s creatures, who, yet a boy, was suffering under so grievous a trial. In the meantime the water was flowing around him, and he gazed upon it, and longed for one drop of it; and he complained of thirst all the first day, after which he was silent, for God gave him strength” - Wiseman’s Lectures, pp. 164, 165, ed.

John 19:29
A vessel full of vinegar - This was probably that tart small wine which we are assured was the common drink of the Roman soldiers. Our word vinegar comes from the French vin aigre, sour or tart wine; and, although it is probable that it was brought at this time for the use of the four Roman soldiers who were employed in the crucifixion of our Lord, yet it is as probable that it might have been furnished for the use of the persons crucified; who, in that lingering kind of death, must necessarily be grievously tormented with thirst. This vinegar must not be confounded with the vinegar and gall mentioned Mat_27:34, and Mar_15:23. That, being a stupifying potion, intended to alleviate his pain, he refused to drink; but of this he took a little, and then expired, Joh_19:30.
 
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ewq1938

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We are mostly made of water, a great deal of that being in the blood. Christ lost a lot of blood and had nothing to drink, during a day in April in Israel where it averages 75 degrees during the day. The very little he did drink right before his death was too little too late to help his body. It only satisfied his thirst for a moment and that was mainly to fulfill the prophecy. I say he died of dehydration.





 
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ewq1938

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So they would break their legs to speed up dehydration and or blood loss?

Christ's legs weren't broken so this cannot be applied to why he died. While asphyxiation was a possible cause, there is no evidence to support it but there is evidence that supports dehydration is more likely.
 
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timothyu

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Christ's legs weren't broken so this cannot be applied to why he died. While asphyxiation was a possible cause, there is no evidence to support it but there is evidence that supports dehydration is more likely.
Nothing to do with Jesus. It is about crucifixion, form of execution. It is odd some would like to see a secular torture of man and how it works through non-secular eyes. All died the same way.
 
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Did Jesus drink the sour wine and gall when he was hanging on the cross? What are the ramifications if he did? Would that mean he wouldn't have taken the full brunt of God's wrath for sin?
Do you think Jesus failed in His crucifixion? What if the sour wine he sipped just before death was the wine he drank signifying the Kingdom of God was now established?
“For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.” Luke 22:18 (KJV 1900)
 
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Do you think Jesus failed in His crucifixion?

No. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God with all power and authority over the world right now. God justified Him by raising Him from the dead. I repent of making this thread
 
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setst777

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He drank it near the time he was going to die.

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

You hit it on the nail. Whether Christ sipped it, drank of it, or spit it out, the fact remains that Lord Jesus, at that point, already completed the mission God the Father sent Him to do.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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DamianWarS

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Did Jesus drink the sour wine and gall when he was hanging on the cross? What are the ramifications if he did? Would that mean he wouldn't have taken the full brunt of God's wrath for sin?
I wasn't aware sour wine and gall had the ability to dull the effects of God's wrath
 
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ewq1938

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I wasn't aware sour wine and gall had the ability to dull the effects of God's wrath


Christ suffered from the wrath of the Romans not the wrath of his Father, a fellow member of the Trinity.
 
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Christ suffered from the wrath of the Romans not the wrath of his Father, a fellow member of the Trinity.

Actually no, it really was the Father's wrath against sin that Jesus endured on the cross. Jesus was punished in our stead. That's pretty basic knowledge.

Isaiah 53:4-5 NIV
Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
 
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Mark Quayle

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He tasted it, but drank no more. I think it's pure speculation to assume what it would mean if he had drank it, but this seems reasonable to me:

Matthew 27:34 (Dake Study Bible Notes)
It was customary to give a stupefying potion to intoxicate and help alleviate sufferings (Prov. 31:6), but Christ refused it so as to suffer the full penalty for sin, sober and in His right mind.
.
Are you of the opinion that his degree of physical suffering had anything to do with bearing the brunt of God's wrath? There are many who suffered worse.
 
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The Liturgist

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It was a Roman sour wine called Posca and it had some Myrrh in it. I doubt anyone has drank that in hundreds of years.

The Syriac Orthodox Church drinks it or something like it on Good Friday.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually no, it really was the Father's wrath against sin that Jesus endured on the cross. Jesus was punished in our stead. That's pretty basic knowledge.

Actually, no, that’s a disputed form of soteriology called “Satisfaction atonement” or “Penal substitutionary atonement” which an extremely large number of Christians, including myself, reject.

There are a number of reasons to reject it, including, but not limited to:

  • Since God is pure love, and an all consuming fire, it is logical, and well established in many schools of theology, such as Eastern Orthodox theology, that the experience of wrath is really the experience of God’s all consuming love by a person filled with hate, for whom the pure love of God would be unbearable torture.
  • God, being pure love, does not demand satisfaction from the suffering of sinners, but rather, their suffering is a consequence of their lack of repentance.
  • God, being long suffering, suffered in the person of His only begotten Son for the salvation of sinners, but this was not, as Anselm of Canterbury somewhat impiously suggested, in order to satisfy the wounded honor of the Father, who is not by nature wrathful.
  • Christ our God taught that a house divided against itself cannot stand. There is no disunity in the Holy Trinity.
  • The Trinity is furthermore an eternal union of pure love, and for one member of the Trinity to derive satisfaction from the suffering of another is unthinkable.

Instead, I think the Eastern Orthodox theologian Metropolitan Kallistos Ware explains best the manner in which Christ our God saves us, through His passion, His resurrection, and indeed the entirety of His incarnation, which restores fallen humanity to make it once more the image of God:

 
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Actually, no, that’s a disputed form of soteriology called “Satisfaction atonement” or “Penal substitutionary atonement” which an extremely large number of Christians, including myself, reject.

There are a number of reasons to reject it, including, but not limited to:

  • Since God is pure love, and an all consuming fire, it is logical, and well established in many schools of theology, such as Eastern Orthodox theology, that the experience of wrath is really the experience of God’s all consuming love by a person filled with hate, for whom the pure love of God would be unbearable torture.
  • God, being pure love, does not demand satisfaction from the suffering of sinners, but rather, their suffering is a consequence of their lack of repentance.
  • God, being long suffering, suffered in the person of His only begotten Son for the salvation of sinners, but this was not, as Anselm of Canterbury somewhat impiously suggested, in order to satisfy the wounded honor of the Father, who is not by nature wrathful.
  • Christ our God taught that a house divided against itself cannot stand. There is no disunity in the Holy Trinity.
  • The Trinity is furthermore an eternal union of pure love, and for one member of the Trinity to derive satisfaction from the suffering of another is unthinkable.

Instead, I think the Eastern Orthodox theologian Metropolitan Kallistos Ware explains best the manner in which Christ our God saves us, through His passion, His resurrection, and indeed the entirety of His incarnation, which restores fallen humanity to make it once more the image of God:



Appreciated. But then why did God historically demand animal sacrifices? Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
 
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