In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

dms1972 said:

It's so ill-conceived and poorly thought out that it could almost serve as a textbook example of how to not draft a bill, it is so incredibly naive at best. While there may be some simplistic ideas and practices around and unqualified people claiming to offer 'conversion therapy' what this bill proposes is not the solution. When it would be so much more sensible to just ask for the professions to draw up some guidelines on good practice so that adults who want to overcome for instance a sexual addiction or compulsion in this area can seek out lets say some sort of insight oriented psychotherapy, sexual addicts support group, or pastoral care for themselves, and would be able to get it.

Click to expand...

professionals have and such is readily available. However conversion therapy doesn't even profess to address sexual addiction or compulsions.

This bill goes way beyond guidelines on good practice, and seems to trangress several boundaries. Homosexuality is not some uniform trait and there are studies as well as no small amount of anecdotal evidence which suggest that it is not immutable.

Click to expand...

there are no studies to support this claim and anecdotal evidence is almost universally rescinded by those professing it over time

As I said what about people with sexual addictions in this area? How are they to be helped? What about people who are HIV positive?

Click to expand...

neither of which has anything to do with "conversion therapy"

dms1972 said:

When it would be so much more sensible to just ask for the professions to draw up some guidelines on good practice...

Click to expand...

These already exist. However, much conversion therapy goes on outside the confines of formal professional care, in churches or para-church organisations or informal fellowships. Such guidelines would not make any impact in those settings.

Paidiske said:

These already exist. However, much conversion therapy goes on outside the confines of formal professional care, in churches or para-church organisations or informal fellowships. Such guidelines would not make any impact in those settings.

Click to expand...

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 1 Peter 2:11

Good practice doesn't involve denying a client help with the issues he/she expressly wants help with - that would tantamount to a denial of service. Its for the churches, and pastoral care ministries to draw up their own pastoral care guidelines in keeping with the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many issues in psychotherapy or pastoral care can be difficult to work through. Whether in secular psychotherapy or pastoral care one of the barriers to progress is a client that is unmotivated. In the christian life progressive sanctification entails dying to the old self and its practices and pursuing holiness, abstaining from passions of the flesh - which obviously is not limited to homosexuals.

dms1972 said:

Good practice doesn't involve denying a client help with the issues he/she expressly wants help with - that would tantamount to a denial of service.

Click to expand...

Nor does good practice engage in harmful pseudo-therapies while promising impossible results.

dms1972 said:

Its for the churches, and pastoral care ministries to draw up their own pastoral care guidelines in keeping with the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Churches have shown we cannot be trusted to do this without some basic boundaries from the secular government.

We might even think of accepting those boundaries as a discipline in abstaining from the passions of the flesh.

SilverBear said:

Satinover also claims that prozac "cures" homosexuals

Click to expand...

This is a misrepresentation.

He was giving a review of secular and christian approaches to homosexuality and was discussing anxiety and sexual "addictions", and reviewing the extensive medical and psychiatric literature in regard to treatment of paraphilias, including the use of Fluoxetine. He gave well over a dozen medical and psychiatric references in his footnotes, just two of them I list below (for anyone who is interested)

APA PsycNet
Fluoxetine treatment of nonparaphilic sexual addictions and paraphilias in men - PubMed

Paidiske said:

Nor does good practice engage in harmful pseudo-therapies while promising impossible results.



Churches have shown we cannot be trusted to do this without some basic boundaries from the secular government.

We might even think of accepting those boundaries as a discipline in abstaining from the passions of the flesh.

Click to expand...

Do you mean, by not ministering in the flesh but rather praying in the Holy Spirit and providing pastoral care informed by God's Word, under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, that is to say not guided by the spirit of the world, or the times?

Pastoral Care is what is being suggested not a quick fix. It has never been shown however that homosexuality is immutable and I repeat studies have also shown it is not a uniform trait. The bill being discussed is ideological in the worst sense. People moving away from homosexuality may make progress and yet still sometimes be tempted, sometimes by a group they haven't broke away from to fall back into old lifestyle patterns. A good pastoral carer will understand the possibility of relapse and be patient.

To say churches have shown they cannot be trusted, you are just generalising and to be honest I would not be the least surprised if some of these tales of pastoral harm are just histronics, ie melodramatic behaviour designed to attract attention.

dms1972 said:

Do you mean, by not ministering in the flesh but rather praying in the Holy Spirit and providing pastoral care informed by God's Word, under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, and not guided by the spirit of the world, or the times?

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what you're trying to ask. I mean - as I have said all through this thread - that we have no way to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity, we do great harm when we try, and we ought to refrain from that practice.

dms1972 said:

To say churches have shown they cannot be trusted, you are just generalising and to be honest I would not be the least surprised if some of these tales of pastoral harm are just histronics, ie melodramatic behaviour designed to attract attention.

Click to expand...

Of course it's a generalisation, but that's a necessary basis for framing laws. The fact that abusive conversion practices happen (not in every church, but in enough to be a widespread problem) means this action is necessary.

There may be some histrionics, but in my pastoral experience people are far more likely to seek to avoid attention, rather than attract it, on this point.

dms1972 said:

This is a misrepresentation.

He was giving a review of secular and christian approaches to homosexuality and was discussing anxiety and sexual "addictions", and reviewing the extensive medical and psychiatric literature in regard to treatment of paraphilias, including the use of Fluoxetine. He gave well over a dozen medical and psychiatric references in his footnotes, just two of them I list below (for anyone who is interested)

APA PsycNet
Fluoxetine treatment of nonparaphilic sexual addictions and paraphilias in men - PubMed

Click to expand...

When we consider that there is no objective distinction between homosexuality and the other perversions, we can easily see how the development of the homosexual “habit’ fits into this framework of cures through medication. Some homosexuals are being successfully treated with Prozac. Here too, sexual reorientation is reported to have occurred incidentally." Jeffrey Satinover Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth

I cannot comprehend how you think secularists and pagans who do not know God can know what is possible through the Atonement and the Work of the Holy Spirit in sancification.

This bill the way its formulated would also mean homosexuals not wanting to seek help from a church based ministry might eventually not even be able to get help towards abstainance from a sexual addicts support group or Homosexuals Anonymous group if they needed it either.

Are you seriously defending this bill?

dms1972 said:

I cannot comprehend how you think secularists and pagans who do not know God can know what is possible through the Atonement and the Work of the Holy Spirit in sancification.

Click to expand...

I think when the damage done by fraudulent and harmful practices is obvious even to secularists and pagans, we ought to take notice.

dms1972 said:

This bill the way its formulated would also mean homosexuals not wanting to seek help from a church based ministry might eventually not even be able to get help towards abstainance from a sexual addicts support group or Homosexuals Anynonynous group if they needed it either

Click to expand...

This bill is seeking to stop one thing; conversion therapy. If support groups or the like are practicing conversion therapy, then it is good that that is stopped.

dms1972 said:

Are you seriously defending this bill?

Click to expand...

Of course. I hope it means I see fewer people in my office who have been severely damaged by people claiming to act for God.

Paidiske said:

Of course it's a generalisation, but that's a necessary basis for framing laws.

Click to expand...

If you support this - it is another step toward making preaching of the Gospel illegal.

dms1972 said:

If you support this - it is another step toward making preaching of the Gospel illegal.

Click to expand...

Not in the slightest. The gospel is the absolute opposite of conversion therapy; it brings life and hope and freedom.

dms1972 said:

Do you mean, by not ministering in the flesh but rather praying in the Holy Spirit and providing pastoral care informed by God's Word, under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, that is to say not guided by the spirit of the world, or the times?

Pastoral Care is what is being suggested not a quick fix. It has never been shown however that homosexuality is immutable and I repeat studies have also shown it is not a uniform trait. The bill being discussed is ideological in the worst sense. People moving away from homosexuality may make progress and yet still sometimes be tempted, sometimes by a group they haven't broke away from to fall back into old lifestyle patterns. A good pastoral carer will understand the possibility of relapse and be patient.

To say churches have shown they cannot be trusted, you are just generalising and to be honest I would not be the least surprised if some of these tales of pastoral harm are just histronics, ie melodramatic behaviour designed to attract attention.

Click to expand...

There is such ignorance about this topic as well as aggressive LGBT activism. Sexuality is complex and can vary in intensity & direction over time. I have no doubt that denying access to help for people with unwanted same sex attraction will lead to suicides.

Jesus taught that lust is akin to sexual activity so Biblical Christians know that suppression of sexual impulses is part of our journey as believers. The Victorian bill not only criminalizes change efforts but also suppression of unwanted sexual feelings by such means as churches offering prayer, Bible reading, counseling and voluntary support groups.

As Fr Joseph said: “We must congratulate the Victorian government for reaching new heights and depths of totalitarian control over citizens’ behaviour, not even Stalin himself tried to outlaw private prayer practices, such as this bill aims to do. "

Paidiske said:

I think when the damage done by fraudulent and harmful practices is obvious even to secularists and pagans, we ought to take notice.

Click to expand...

You are missing the point - encouragement towards abstainance could be interpreted as suppression by some and thus criminalised by this bill as its formulated.

dms1972 said:

You are missing the point - encouragement towards abstainance could be interpreted as suppression by some and thus criminalised by this bill as its formulated.

Click to expand...

No, I'm not missing the point. The point - the key point at the heart of all this - is that the church must relinquish any sense of entitlement to engage in damaging practices.

Encouraging abstinence is not the same as suppression of one's sexuality. One can have a robust sexuality and yet be celibate (in fact, from what I understand, living a successful and healthy celibate life over the long term generally relies on not repressing/suppressing one's sexuality, since what is suppressed tends to come out in unhealthy and uncontrolled ways).

Paidiske said:

Not in the slightest. The gospel is the absolute opposite of conversion therapy; it brings life and hope and freedom.

Click to expand...

Again you are missing the point many types of genuine qualified pastoral care for homosexuals could come under suspicion.

"Hope and freedom" please explain what you mean, how does the Gospel bring hope and freedom to homosexuals. I don't disagree but I want to know what you mean in saying this?

dms1972 said:

You are missing the point - encouragement towards abstainance could be interpreted as suppression by some and thus criminalised by this bill as its formulated.

Click to expand...

Thank God there are still some churches that will hold to Biblical standards of behaviour and not ignorantly encourage others to embrace sin for the sake of popularity.

dms1972 said:

Again you are missing the point many types of genuine qualified pastoral care for homosexuals could come under suspicion.

Click to expand...

And if they don't amount to conversion therapy, there will be no convictions under this bill.

dms1972 said:

"Hope and freedom" please explain what you mean, how does the Gospel bring hope and freedom homosexuals.

Click to expand...

Exactly the same way it brings hope and freedom to each of us. It shows us that we have a God-given identity which is precious and loved, a God-given positive purpose of participation in the mission of God in the world, and a God-given future in which all of creation will be set to rights. We are not defined or bound by our sinfulness, our brokenness, our frailty and weakness, but we are defined by Christ and his purposes.

Paidiske said:

Encouraging abstinence is not the same as suppression of one's sexuality. One can have a robust sexuality and yet be celibate (in fact, from what I understand, living a successful and healthy celibate life over the long term generally relies on not repressing/suppressing one's sexuality, since what is suppressed tends to come out in unhealthy and uncontrolled ways).

Click to expand...

OK show me where this bill allows for encouragement or admonition to abstinence or a celibate lifestyle?

dms1972 said:

OK show me where this bill allows for encouragement or admonition to abstainance or celibate lifestyle?

Click to expand...

This bill does not address abstinence/celibacy, because that is separate and distinct from conversion therapy, which is the focus of the bill.