What is the purpose of life? [moved]

timothyu said:

Fido's even if he/she was trained to not touch under severe punishment. The thing is that Fido would be blameless because Fido as the bible says is just doing what Fido's do. Man did not have that loophole as we were already functioning as an extension of God. wewere a hybrid while the common beast was not.

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You would take no responsibility for setting up an event which you could have prevented? And how can you argue that Fido is at fault while, at the same time, Fido is not to blame?

Bungle_Bear said:

And how can you argue that Fido is at fault while, at the same time, Fido is not to blame?

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How is any animal in creation at fault for killing and eating another without remorse? They have no concept of right or wrong in following instinct.

timothyu said:

How is any animal in creation at fault for killing and eating another without remorse? They have no concept of right or wrong in following instinct.

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You tell me. You're the one who said that Fido would be at fault. Just as in the bible, the way things are set up means the outcome is inevitable. It's interesting that you would deny any responsibility, even though you could have put the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" in a container in a cupboard that Fido cannot access.

timothyu said:

Is it allowed to expand?

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What does that mean? You previously used 'grow' in the context of improving ("honing skills"). If something is perfect it can't be improved.

timothyu said:

No we don't. All the other creatures do while we self determine everything (they are unable to). We do as we please regardless of what and who we hurt without concern for anything but self. All else simply eats to survive (realistically everything including us is food for something else).

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Our bodies and brains are made of normal matter - which follows the laws of nature (physics, chemistry, biology). Our destructive behaviour is a product of our heritage - it's what happens when a cognitively sophisticated ape develops technology and culture - and is still driven by the same unsophisticated feelings and emotions.

We are not content with that and think ourselves better because we came to know self.

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I agree with that. Human exceptionalism seems particularly strong among religious folk who need to feel we're special or 'chosen' in some way (e.g. by some deity).

TedT said:

The Bible story ends with the marriage of the Lamb and the Holy Church. This is a metaphor for the holy loving communion and communication throughout all of the universe between everyone in this communion, in this heavenly state, ie, GOD and all HIS Holy Bride.

Therefore I think this is the answer to "Why did HE create us?" HE wanted to share the fellowship of marriage that the Trinity enjoys with someone else to share the love. But true love and a true marriage cannot be forced - they can only be entered into by a free will decision to accept the marriage proposal. This necessitated we all had to have a time of a free will not enslaved to sin to make our decision about HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour from sin (if we should ever need one) and inviting us to marry HIM.

The pain and suffering you mention is reserved for those
1. who rejected HIS deity and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son as the lies of a false god thus making themselves eternally unable to fulfill becoming HIS bride and fit only to be discarded and

2. those who put their faith in HIM as their creator GOD and in the Son as their saviour from sin but who later rebelled against one of HIS commands, probably the command to "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" designed to save them the rigours of human life and suffering as expressed in the parable of the weeds / tares, Matt 13.

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Yes, I know the traditional story, but none of that answers why a supposedly perfect entity would have wants, needs, or desires - i.e. is it perfect except that it needs the extra satisfaction of sharing its love for itself? because that, obviously, wouldn't be perfection.

Or why an omniscient entity would need to create anything, given it already has complete knowledge of everything that could possibly happen.

Or why a supposedly all-loving, all-merciful entity would condemn to eternal suffering(!!) those of its creations unable to accept one particular religion out of hundreds (or thousands) of equally irrational beliefs, for which there is no evidence, which is documented only by one particular collection of ancient stories (out of thousands) full of magic and contradictions, and subject to multiple interpretations, all claiming to be 'correct'.

Beats me...

Bungle_Bear said:

even though you could have put the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" in a container in a cupboard that Fido cannot access.

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Hardly beneficial. If you are say trying to quit smoking, do you demand the world put away tobacco so you are not tempted (a pattern today's cancel culture believes) or do you overcome while surrounded by temptations? Hide the temptation away and you have accomplished nothing

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Our destructive behaviour is a product of our heritage - it's what happens when a cognitively sophisticated ape develops technology and culture - and is still driven by the same unsophisticated feelings and emotions.

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Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.
.

timothyu said:

Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.

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Is actually true?

Thinking of experiments like the "mirror test", there seem to be some animals that also demonstrate at least rudimentary self awareness.

pitabread said:

there seem to be some animals that also demonstrate at least rudimentary self awareness.

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And how did it change them from fellow species or others if that were so?

timothyu said:

And how did it change them from fellow species or others if that were so?

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I don't understand the question.

Deanos said:

Everything in life has a mathematical equation, we may not know all the equations as of yet. If this was the case it would demonstrate it has been made by something i.e. planned rather than just big bang theory although the big bang did occur. This was when organic matter was introduced for growth and experimental reasons but without the intelligence. Organic matter was not intelligent at the start of the earth but the start of mankind.

Evolution evolved organic matter to a position where man could be created by inputting intelligence.

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Ecclesiastes 12

pitabread said:

I don't understand the question.

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When humans became self aware they changed. How did these supposedly limited self aware animals change in comparison to their species or others once they became self conscious? Did their natural habits now embarrass them?

timothyu said:

When humans became self aware they changed.

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They did?

How did these supposedly limited self aware animals change in comparison to their species or others once they became self conscious? Did their natural habits now embarrass them?

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I still don't know what you mean by "change in comparison to their species"?

The question seems nonsensical.

pitabread said:

They did?

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Yes became self conscious, embarrassed, self determining, self justifying, self centred and wearing off the rack leaves.

timothyu said:

Hardly beneficial. If you are say trying to quit smoking, do you demand the world put away tobacco so you are not tempted (a pattern today's cancel culture believes) or do you overcome while surrounded by temptations? Hide the temptation away and you have accomplished nothing

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You appear to be recommending that someone who is trying to overcome sexual voyeurism should spend a lot of time in lap dancing clubs, but be sure to close their eyes.

timothyu said:

Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.

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Well, it's not easy to test without language, but no.

As far as we can test for it, there are many species that show various types of self-awareness; the most popular test for self-awareness is the mirror test, which tests whether the creature understands that a mirror reflection is of itself. Quite a number of disparate species can do this, including some birds - there's even (disputed) experimental evidence that some fish can do it.

Other tests involve whether a creature has a mental self-image, e.g. to allow mentally projecting itself into novel situations - again, quite a few species show this, including some birds, and rats. Rats, chimps and dolphins (and probably many other species as yet untested) have also been shown to be capable of metacognition - i.e. showing awareness of the limits of their knowledge in some situation and acting accordingly.

Even octopuses (octopi?) appear to have a degree of self-awareness and theory of mind (they often go together) which is unusual in non-social creatures - particularly molluscs!

It's interesting that chimps pass the mirror test, but macaques don't. This sort of high-level cognitive difference in ability between closely related species is not unusual.

So, many species show different sorts of self-awareness to varying degrees. What usually happens with human exceptionalists at this point is a form of begging the question, where they narrow the definition of self-awareness to a specifically human level, then triumphantly claim that only humans have that level of self-awareness - "Only humans have human self-awareness!". Well, duh.

Ophiolite said:

You appear to be recommending that someone who is trying to overcome sexual voyeurism should spend a lot of time in lap dancing clubs, but be sure to close their eyes.

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No I am saying they can walk by rather than demand they all close.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

As far as we can test for it, there are many species that show various types of self-awareness

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Recognising themselves in a mirror is not self awareness. It is merely recognition. They may see who they are but do not realise who they are. Even you must understand that difference when you look in a mirror if indeed you are human.

timothyu said:

No I am saying they can walk by rather than demand they all close.

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What if I suggest they should close for the dual reasons that they exploit the workers and the customers?

timothyu said:

Recognising themselves in a mirror is not self awareness. It is merely recognition. They may see who they are but do not realise who they are. Even you must understand that difference when you look in a mirror if indeed you are human.

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I guess I'm not human, since I don't understand what you mean.