What is the purpose of life? [moved]

[timothyu]

I don't understand why we must go through the shenanigans of being on earth

Just because He may know who goes where does not mean He caused them to do so. That is up to us and He waits out our lives for what we self determine is the 'way'.

 

[Charmy]

Just because He may know who goes where does not mean He caused them to do so. That is up to us and He waits out our lives for what we self determine is the 'way'.

I agree with you, He does not cause us to do so. We have been given the freedom of choice. But He knows the outcome. No matter how long He waits, the end result is is not going to change. The end result is by the choices we make. But He knows what choices we will make before we do...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We were restricted to this plane of existence in order to protect everything else. We also were to learn the consequences of our self serving actions and decide whose will was a better choice to follow, ours or His. But consider that in God's world He may be omniscient, but we were a new thing outside his natural realm. Bases would be covered such as temporary life unlike angels doomed to an eternity of punishment. But is the whole process to create a being better than fallible angels using a mammal as a vessel test tube for it to grow in? Quite possibly. All this is the illusion.

Illusion? Sounds more like a fabricated fantasy... I was taught (by Benedictine monks) that God is 'everywhere', that all is his realm - i.e. nothing is outside his realm (but it's not panentheism).

Why wouldn't an omnipotent God simply create a less fallible being from scratch, as he created Adam & Eve? Why would (how could) a perfect God create fallible angels in the first place? If he knew what would happen, why do it? If he knew there was a better way, why not do that in the first place?

I get the impression that either God is fabricating a fantasy for his own amusement, or you are - guess which option I think most likely

So, is it GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways)? HHHR (He Has His Reasons)? or IJMIAU (I'm Just Making It All Up)?

 

[timothyu]

But He knows what choices we will make before we do...

Spoilers LOL

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... The end result is by the choices we make. But He knows what choices we will make before we do...

So we cannot choose otherwise... our choices are effectively fixed in advance; the illusion of free will.

This is no different from a deterministic world with no God in it - as Isaac Bashevis Singer said, "We have to believe in free will - we have no choice..."

 

[timothyu]

Why wouldn't an omnipotent God simply create a less fallible being from scratch, as he created Adam & Eve?

Perhaps after the rebellion of creatures in heaven he developed trust issues. Rather than assemble more Ikea knockoffs he honed His craft. Is God, although perfect, not allowed to grow? Can He not play with his ant farm?

But realistically He knows the rules and everything in the world except us follows them, while we run around continually making them up as we go to serve our own purposes.

 

[timothyu]

our choices are effectively fixed in advance

No. He just already knows them but is not about to interfere other than give us the road map. Cleaning the Kingdom gene pool .

 

[Charmy]

No. He just already knows them but is not about to interfere other than give us the road map. Cleaning the Kingdom gene pool .

That is the part I have trouble. Even though out out come is due to our own choice. God already knows I choices. I don't see the purpose of life. Before we are born God already knows whether we are going to Heaven or hell..... Nothing is going to change the road map.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Is God, although perfect, not allowed to grow? Can He not play with his ant farm?

How can perfection improve? Why would perfection need to play - especially if it knew exactly what it would be like before even starting?

But realistically He knows the rules and everything in the world except us follows them, while we run around continually making them up as we go to serve our own purposes.

We follow the 'laws of nature', as does everything else; we can't do otherwise. What 'rules' does everything in the world but us follow?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No. He just already knows them but is not about to interfere other than give us the road map.

If he already knows what we'll do, then we cannot do otherwise, our 'choices' are inevitable.

 

[timothyu]

Before we are born God already knows whether we are going to Heaven or hell.....

But He doesn't determine it any more than we can determine the lives of our own children. We insisted on determining our own lives so we have been given the chance to do so. We are the ones who determined the purpose in the first place.

 

[timothyu]

How can perfection improve?

Is it allowed to expand?

 

[Nithavela]

Everything in life has a mathematical equation, we may not know all the equations as of yet. If this was the case it would demonstrate it has been made by something i.e. planned rather than just big bang theory although the big bang did occur.

No.

 

[Charmy]

Would I be correct in saying that God knows when we will be born and when will die. Before we are born. Would I be corect in saying God is All knowing. I am just trying to understand

 

[timothyu]

We follow the 'laws of nature', as does everything else; we can't do otherwise. What 'rules' does everything in the world but us follow?

No we don't. All the other creatures do while we self determine everything (they are unable to). We do as we please regardless of what and who we hurt without concern for anything but self. All else simply eats to survive (realistically everything including us is food for something else). We are not content with that and think ourselves better because we came to know self.

 

[timothyu]

Would I be correct in saying that God knows when we will be born and when will die. Before we are born. Would I be corect in saying God is All knowing. I am just trying to understand

God knows but you seems to think He 'knows' like we do, thinks like us.
God is, and we are part of that is.
God is aware of Himself. But when we became aware of ourselves, while even being part of Him we separated Him from ourselves. He cannot separated us from Him good or evil, for He is all.

 

[TedT]

I believe that he is all knowing. He knows who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell....

I do too...but I don't think that HE knew this before they were created.

I just don't understand why we on earth. Why does He not put each soul where it will end.

I don't understand why we must go through the shenanigans of being on earth[/

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” Any explanation must be without metaphor or hyperbole and can be taken at face value or it explains nothing. 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. Sons of the kingdom and sons of the evil one refers to people, people who are sown, ie planted, into the world. Never does sown refer to a creation.

These good seed, ie, good sons of the kingdom are sinful because v29 ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. claims they are liable to be destroyed by the judgment which proves they must be sinners as no holy person will be destroyed in the judgment. And the next verse says the reprobate under judgement must live with the elect (good) but sinful seed until the harvest, 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves one from the judgement is a maturity of holy righteousness.

In other words, the sinful elect are sent here to be saved by Christ and to repent and to become holy and heaven ready. It is also clear to me that the reprobate demonic tares are under judgement which the angels are willing to bring upon them but the sinfulness of the good seed has forced the postponement of the time of judgement called the harvest.

And I believe that living with the evil ones helps in the sanctifying process by giving the sinful elect a constant reminder of the sufferings and degradation caused by any sin until they repent, accepting the absolute necessity of their holiness...allowing the judgement to proceed.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

What are the odds of a family pet suddenly becoming self aware? None.

If you leave the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" on the kitchen floor, I guarantee that at some stage Fido will become self-aware. Whose fault would that be - yours or Fido's?

 

[TedT]

Well quite... and if God knows exactly will happen to whatever he creates, why bother to create anything at all?

Why would a perfect God want to create creatures (let alone require love and worship from them on pain of eternal suffering) - why would he have any wants, needs, or desires?

Beats me...

The Bible story ends with the marriage of the Lamb and the Holy Church. This is a metaphor for the holy loving communion and communication throughout all of the universe between everyone in this communion, in this heavenly state, ie, GOD and all HIS Holy Bride.

Therefore I think this is the answer to "Why did HE create us?" HE wanted to share the fellowship of marriage that the Trinity enjoys with someone else to share the love. But true love and a true marriage cannot be forced - they can only be entered into by a free will decision to accept the marriage proposal. This necessitated we all had to have a time of a free will not enslaved to sin to make our decision about HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour from sin (if we should ever need one) and inviting us to marry HIM.

The pain and suffering you mention is reserved for those
1. who rejected HIS deity and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son as the lies of a false god thus making themselves eternally unable to fulfill becoming HIS bride and fit only to be discarded and

2. those who put their faith in HIM as their creator GOD and in the Son as their saviour from sin but who later rebelled against one of HIS commands, probably the command to "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" designed to save them the rigours of human life and suffering as expressed in the parable of the weeds / tares, Matt 13.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The Bible story ends with the marriage of the Lamb and the Holy Church. This is a metaphor for the holy loving communion and communication throughout all of the universe between everyone in this communion, in this heavenly state, ie, GOD and all HIS Holy Bride.

Therefore I think this is the answer to "Why did HE create us?" HE wanted to share the fellowship of marriage that the Trinity enjoys with someone else to share the love. But true love and a true marriage cannot be forced - they can only be entered into by a free will decision to accept the marriage proposal. This necessitated we all had to have a time of a free will not enslaved to sin to make our decision about HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour from sin (if we should ever need one) and inviting us to marry HIM.

The pain and suffering you mention is reserved for those
1. who rejected HIS deity and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son as the lies of a false god thus making themselves eternally unable to fulfill becoming HIS bride and fit only to be discarded and

2. those who put their faith in HIM as their creator GOD and in the Son as their saviour from sin but who later rebelled against one of HIS commands, probably the command to "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" designed to save them the rigours of human life and suffering as expressed in the parable of the weeds / tares, Matt 13.

Would you consider marriage to somebody whose proposal was "marry me or I'll torture you for eternity" to be a genuine act of free will?

 

[timothyu]

If you leave the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" on the kitchen floor, I guarantee that at some stage Fido will become self-aware. Whose fault would that be - yours or Fido's?

Fido's even if he/she was trained to not touch under severe punishment. The thing is that Fido would be blameless because Fido as the bible says is just doing what Fido's do. Man did not have that loophole as we were already functioning as an extension of God. wewere a hybrid while the common beast was not.