The New Covenant

Spiritual Jew · Jan 24, 2021

Guojing said:
And who do you think are the recipients of that New Covenant, are they "spiritual Jews"?

Yes, they are, with the understanding that all Christians are spiritual Jews because we all have experienced "circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit" (Romans 2:28-29) and all are saved and have received the forgiveness of our sins through the shed blood of Christ which established the new covenant (Matt 26:27-28, Luke 22:20, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:24, etc.).

Guojing · Jan 24, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, they are, with the understanding that all Christians are spiritual Jews because we all have experienced "circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit" (Romans 2:28-29) and all are saved and have received the forgiveness of our sins through the shed blood of Christ which established the new covenant (Matt 26:27-28, Luke 22:20, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:24, etc.).

Yep, I talked about this already here The New Covenant

This doctrine that the Body of Christ is spiritual or covenant Jews is not scriptural. Paul never called us either of them.

And this doctrine is what is required to make your conclusion work.

Ceallaigh · Jan 24, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Why do you ignore the entire New Testament, including the book of Hebrews, which teach that the New Covenant was established by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ when He shed His blood?

You think you have the answers and everyone else in the world is wrong. You are so arrogant that it makes me ill. You think God shows you things that He doesn't show anyone else. It's terrible how blind you are about this.

I know how you feel. But then I ask myself, why get upset over a lone wolf interpreter? I first encountered one of those on Usenet many years ago and he got a huge amounts of negative attention over it. Endless trying to get him to see the light. And the longer it went on, the more polished he got in arguing his controversial proposition.

Christian Gedge · Jan 24, 2021

MMXX said:
What you don't seem to be getting is that when your interpretation of scripture is completely out of whack with everyone else's, you are most likely not rightly dividing the word and practicing eisegesis.

This is reasonable. It is not to say that traditions have never been wrong, but when we are discussing long held church doctrine we should consider it carefully before being adamant with conflicting ideas.

This includes the teaching of the Church fathers. Disrespectful people love to point out that their writings are not on the level of canonized scripture. True, but they sat at the feet of those who sat at the feet of the apostles. All of them taught that we were under the new covenant!

Spiritual Jew said:
The New Covenant WAS already made with all who would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. You need to stop this false teaching. All Christians are saved under the new covenant. It was established by the blood of Christ and His sacrifice long ago and replaced the inferior old covenant and its animal sacrifices which could never take away someone's sins (Hebrews 10:4).

To try to say that the New Covenant is not yet in effect contradicts the entire New Testament and is a terrible insult to what Christ already accomplished long ago. If the new covenant is not yet in effect then we are not saved and our sins are not forgiven. How can you not understand that?

Yes, you need to stop this false teaching. It is misguided at best and wicked at worst.

Ceallaigh · Jan 24, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
This is reasonable. It is not to say that traditions have never been wrong, but when we are discussing long held church doctrine we should consider it carefully before being adamant with conflicting ideas.

I've found the adamant attitude is what bothers people the most in situations like this. I hold a couple of less traditional views myself. But they're not unique. There are plenty of books and websites and lectures regarding them. I don't present myself as being one of a few or the only one who knows the proper interpretation of scripture on the matter. And I realize the position I hold might be incorrect.

jgr · Jan 24, 2021

Guojing said:
It is easier to just rely on authority, instead of being Berean about doctrine (Acts 17:11).

What authority did defenders of the true faith for 1700 years of unanimity rely on?

keras · Jan 24, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
This is reasonable. It is not to say that traditions have never been wrong, but when we are discussing long held church doctrine we should consider it carefully before being adamant with conflicting ideas.

Yes CG, I have considered the issue of when The new Covenant will be made between Jesus and His faithful people. I knew that to challenge the long held belief of the NC now, would cause upset.
However I am not here to just do what they do on the Rapture Forum for example; they all confirm to each other how they will go direct to heaven at the first indication of trouble.

I know the Prophesies very well, having written about all of them for the last 10 years. God has given all the information for us to know His plans for the future. We, my friends, should not be in the dark about it all.

Thinking that we are in the New Covenant now, is very pretentious and conflicts with reality. The tenets listed in Hebrews 8:10-12, are not true for us today. They are future Promises.

As for the ECF's and every expositor since them, Daniel 12:4 & 9 says the prophesies are sealed until the time of the end and Isaiah 42:18-20 tells us the Lord's servants are blinded. They have plenty of good info about Salvation and how we should live, but their interpretation of prophecy cannot be trusted.

What we CAN trust is the actual Words of the Bible prophets. I have posted the scriptural proof of when and where the Lord will make the New Covenant with His Christian people.
It seems there is a veil over the minds of those who have chosen to believe
other teachings.

jgr · Jan 24, 2021

keras said:
Thinking that we are in the New Covenant now, is very pretentious and conflicts with reality.

Tertullian, Early defender of the true faith, 155-240 AD
Against Marcion, Book 5, Part 2
Referring to the Apostle Paul:
"...he did this to maintain the superiority of the glory of the New Testament, which is permanent in its glory, over that of the Old..."

The choice:
1. keras
2. Tertullian

Easy decision.

Ceallaigh · Jan 24, 2021

keras said:
The majority in any issue are like sheep, they don't bother to really think it through properly. They believe the so called experts and go with the flow.
The big joke about the deceived majority was the play 'Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong'. But they were!

On another forum this is pretty much what a construction worker who claims to have discovered the cure for autism told me.

Or the actual MD + PhD who decided an "omer" of manna weighed 2 lbs and insisted that God mandated that everyone should eat exactly 2 lbs of food per day, and came up with a whole bunch of scripture to back him up.

Or the guy on CF recently who basically insisted that Christians working jobs for a living went against scripture that Christians have been avoiding/ignoring for 2000 years.

There's always someone who sees something all the so called experts missed. A special revaluation that's been hidden from most or even all, except that person.

And they get lots of people on the internet to get into circular arguments with them for years on end.

keras · Jan 25, 2021

jgr said:
Tertullian, Early defender of the true faith, 155-240 AD
Against Marcion, Book 5, Part 2
Referring to the Apostle Paul:
"...he did this to maintain the superiority of the glory of the New Testament, which is permanent in its glory, over that of the Old..."

The choice:
1. keras
2. Tertullian

Easy decision.

Why can't you use scripture to support the NC now?
What Tertullian says doesn't prove it, doesn't even mention the NC.

MMXX said:
And they get lots of people on the internet to get into circular arguments with them for years on end.

The Issue of the new Covenant being not yet, as I have proved with Bible verses, is not circular, as you and everyone else have failed to make any case from the Bible that it is now.
It seems the only recourse for 'now', is to drag out anyone who is as confused and deceived on this issue, as you are.
The other is to denigrate and character assassinate the messenger.

Guojing · Jan 25, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
This is reasonable. It is not to say that traditions have never been wrong, but when we are discussing long held church doctrine we should consider it carefully before being adamant with conflicting ideas.

This includes the teaching of the Church fathers. Disrespectful people love to point out that their writings are not on the level of canonized scripture. True, but they sat at the feet of those who sat at the feet of the apostles. All of them taught that we were under the new covenant!

Yes, you need to stop this false teaching. It is misguided at best and wicked at worst.

how do you understand Romans 11:11?

Ceallaigh · Jan 25, 2021

keras said:
Why can't you use scripture to support the NC now?
What Tertullian says doesn't prove it, doesn't even mention the NC.

The Issue of the new Covenant being not yet, as I have proved with Bible verses, is not circular, as you and everyone else have failed to make any case from the Bible that it is now.
It seems the only recourse for 'now', is to drag out anyone who is as confused and deceived on this issue, as you are.
The other is to denigrate and character assassinate the messenger.

Everyone I've encountered who is a special messenger with a special revaluation, proved their claim with Bible verses. They all needed to straighten everyone else out. One used Bible verses to prove the Second Coming would take place a couple of years ago. He was so positive he was right and that his proof was concrete. The arguments in the other "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" threads I've seen always go in repetitious circles. The messenger talks about character assassination while telling others they are confused, deceived, delusional et al.

jgr · Jan 25, 2021

keras said:
Why can't you use scripture to support the NC now?
What Tertullian says doesn't prove it, doesn't even mention the NC.

If you can't understand it, leave it for those who can.

Justin Martyr, Early Defender of the True Faith, 100-165 AD
Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XI
"Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law -- namely, Christ -- has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy, after which there shall be no law, no commandment, no ordinance."

The choice:
1. keras
2. Justin Martyr

Easy decision.

keras · Jan 25, 2021

jgr said:
Easy decision.

Keras - Bible verses
Justin Martyr - his opinion.

Christian Gedge · Jan 25, 2021

Guojing said:
how do you understand Romans 11:11?

“Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.”
(‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:11-14‬)

I understand it to mean that when the Jews rejected the good news, it nevertheless remained Paul’s hope (and by extension God’s wish) that they might repent and enter the New Covenant. I believe that when we get closer to the second coming many of them will repent, and be saved.

Ceallaigh · Jan 25, 2021

keras said:
Keras - Bible verses
Justin Martyr - his opinion.

keras - his opinion based on the Bible.
Justin Martyr - his opinion based on the Bible.

Christian Gedge · Jan 25, 2021

Guojing said:
So if the nation Israel is meant to be the recipient of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8)...

Your verse is a good one. But if we look at the other covenant verses, the clause of emphasis is that “all the nations of the earth will be blessed.” So, God did indeed make his covenant with Israel, but it was always his purpose to include the Gentiles!

As for your next point, I can only reiterate what somebody else said: salvation is an integral part of the New Covenant. It goes hand in glove.

Christian Gedge · Jan 25, 2021

Guojing said:
If that is really the case, you don't wonder why Paul did not talk about the New Covenant extensively to us in the Body of Christ, in all his salvation doctrine?

Paul does mention the New Covenant as it relates to the Gentiles salvation.

“For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises (the covenant) made to the patriarchs might be confirmed and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name.””
‭‭(Romans‬ ‭15:8-9‬)

JussiOlavi · Jan 25, 2021

This is what I'm in and with. The new covenant is in the blood of Jesus. The new covenant is established in the blood of Jesus. Everyone who has received the blood of Jesus is in the new covenant.

Christian Gedge · Jan 25, 2021

Guojing said:
Interesting how you want to insert the term "New Covenant" to replace the word "promises" in that verse, in order to make your doctrine work.

You know as well as I do that Paul was referring to the covenant given to Abraham. The covenant given to the patriarchs is the same covenant that Daniel said must be confirmed, and is the same one that was confirmed by the sacrifice of Christ.

The New Covenant

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