In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

Philip_B said:

Nice. Others in this debate may do as well. I know at least two others do, and reading the thread I think more than that probably do. Your need to assert it seems a claim to give your words greater authority than others.


I accept that statement as it is. However as you and I both know that is not what is in question. I made a statement earlier that you could turn the whole world straight and added win a single soul to the Kingdom. The view that Straight people are somehow better than Gay people is something I do struggle with. We, and that means not only all of us, it also means each one of us, have been made in the image and after the likeness of God. Surely we are more effective witnesses to the Light that is coming into the world when we help people catch a glimpse of that image in themselves, rather than decrying them out loud for what we find deficient. We are called to be ambassadors for Christ; I do not read that we are called to God's Bouncers.

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I whole heartedly agree. We are not God's bouncers. One thing it is important to note in this particular subject is that homosexuals, by and large do not want to believe they are sinning by committing those acts. And get very angry if told by anyone that homosexual acts are sin. It's quite different than other sins that people commit because their whole identity is wrapped in that.

You don't generally get the same reactions from people who lie, steal or commit adultery. Most will acknowledge they shouldn't do those things. And you won't get, "but that's who I am, my identity is I am a liar or a thief or an adulterer." It's more about what they do than who they are.

So for the homosexual community it's a more difficult concept of coming to Jesus and being transformed away from the sinful acts because they fell their whole identity is being removed. It's tough to realize they will find their identity in Jesus. And he will work out the rest.

I have no difficulty with understanding that a person can come to Jesus as a homosexual and still have struggles with overcoming homosexual desires. I also have no difficulty with understanding that some also may be immediately delivered by the power of God from those desires and no longer want to be with someone of the same sex.

We couldn't allow anyone in the church if we told sinners they couldn't do this or that before coming in. No the church is a healing place. Gay people, straight people, liars, adulteress, thieves are all welcome. Because Jesus can and will save and transform you into a brand new person.

As Paul said, "so where some of you." But we are not anymore. Thanks to the power of the cross.

rjs330 said:

Okay you don't believe them. I don't know if you can, but I would suggest attempting to contact them and speak with them personally about their experiences.

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i'd have just one question: yes or no -- are you a heterosexual?

rjs330 said:

Okay, I can understand that. But what do you tell them about having sexual relations with the same sex?

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You know, I don't have to tell them what the Christian standard is. They know. They might struggle with it, but again, I have never had a pastoral conversation with anyone - gay or straight - to whom it was news that sex belongs in marriage. On this point, at least, Christians have done a very effective job of getting the message out.

Paidiske said:

You know, I don't have to tell them what the Christian standard is. They know. They might struggle with it, but again, I have never had a pastoral conversation with anyone - gay or straight - to whom it was news that sex belongs in marriage. On this point, at least, Christians have done a very effective job of getting the message out.

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Is homosexual sex within a homosrxual marriage still sinful?

SilverBear said:

i'd have just one question: yes or no -- are you a heterosexual?

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This isn't about me or you. It's about them.

rjs330 said:

This isn't about me or you. It's about them.

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I am not sure about the word them, as our universal belief in the Fatherhood of God suggests a familial relationship between all members of our race, which suggests to me we should be talking about us.

rjs330 said:

Is homosexual sex within a homosrxual marriage still sinful?

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Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

FutureAndAHope said:

our job is to convict of sin

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That is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours.

FutureAndAHope said:

get people to depart from their sin.

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"Get people to"? No. Our job might be to encourage, to equip, to offer support and nurture and care. But it is not to "get" or coerce people to do anything. That is inappropriate and often abusive.

FutureAndAHope said:

You can not counsel people that it is ok to remain in sin.

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Nor have I ever suggested such a thing.

rjs330 said:

Is homosexual sex within a homosrxual marriage still sinful?

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No, it is not.

FutureAndAHope said:

Same Sex marriage, and relationships, are sin, the Holy Spirit, and our job is to convict of sin (let people know it is sin), and get people to depart from their sin. You can not counsel people that it is ok to remain in sin.

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I have sat here and pondered what you are trying to say, and as a result I am concluding the first two commas should not be there. The Third should be a full stop. The Holy Spirit is in the possessive, so it should have and apostrophe and an 's' and 'job'. and possibly an apostrophe and 's' following our. I am sorry to be a grammar Nazi here, but on the first read I thought you were condemning all relationships as sin. Of course, I may have got this all wrong.

Our liturgy this Sunday will begin "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." Our Gospel reading focusses on 'Come and Follow me'. There is no evidence that Jesus ran his gaydar over the fisherfolk he called, they did not have to pass a grammar test, it seems there was not even a dress code. The simple call is 'Come and Follow'. Jesus is compelling, when you take off you shoes and let your feel feel the dust of the Galilean Shore, you are drawn to listen and to follow. This is the simplicity of Good News. I don't think we help the cause of the Kingdom is helped when we build walls. There is time enough for the rest of this in the process of sanctification.

Philip_B said:

I am not sure about the word them, as our universal belief in the Fatherhood of God suggests a familial relationship between all members of our race, which suggests to me we should be talking about us.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.​

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Them was not being used as a separative group. I was responding to the fact that those in the video is who the poster should be talking to. I wasn't what it was about. Not was he. It was about what they believed and what they said. The believers in the video of whom we are all part of the family of God. My brothers and sisters.

Paidiske said:

Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

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So if you have faith and commit homosexual acts within a homosexual marriage it is not sin?

Paidiske said:

That is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours.



"Get people to"? No. Our job might be to encourage, to equip, to offer support and nurture and care. But it is not to "get" or coerce people to do anything. That is inappropriate and often abusive.



Nor have I ever suggested such a thing.

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You cannot do any of what you said if you refuse to recognize sinful behavior. We can't encourage people not to sin, equip and them not to sin, help them not to sin if we don't recognize that they are committing sin.

It is our job to help people along the way. In humility and love.

No we don't convict of sin. But we should point out sin when we see it. The bible tells us to. We are not being responsible family members if we just ignore the sin that is destroying our family members life.

And you absolutely refuse to say that homosexual sex is sin no matter what. Why is that? Is it or isn't it?

rjs330 said:

So if you have faith and commit homosexual acts within a homosexual marriage it is not sin?

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That is not what I said.

kiwimac said:

No, it is not.

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Not according to scripture. The Bible says it is.

Romans 1 is explicitly clear.

rjs330 said:

But we should point out sin when we see it.

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There is a time and place for this. If I spent my time pointing out every sin I saw, I would do nothing else. But if we do nothing but criticise others, we will not have any sort of relationship with them.

I prefer the advice I've seen variously attributed to different people, originally intended for monastic leaders but which works well for leaders of any faith community:

Notice everything. Overlook a great deal. Correct a little. Cherish the brethren.

rjs330 said:

And you absolutely refuse to say that homosexual sex is sin no matter what. Why is that? Is it or isn't it?

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I am content, on this forum, to leave the question of same-sex marriage as one of individual conscience.

Philip_B said:

I have sat here and pondered what you are trying to say, and as a result I am concluding the first two commas should not be there. The Third should be a full stop. The Holy Spirit is in the possessive, so it should have and apostrophe and an 's' and 'job'. and possibly an apostrophe and 's' following our. I am sorry to be a grammar Nazi here, but on the first read I thought you were condemning all relationships as sin. Of course, I may have got this all wrong.

Our liturgy this Sunday will begin "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." Our Gospel reading focusses on 'Come and Follow me'. There is no evidence that Jesus ran his gaydar over the fisherfolk he called, they did not have to pass a grammar test, it seems there was not even a dress code. The simple call is 'Come and Follow'. Jesus is compelling, when you take off you shoes and let your feel feel the dust of the Galilean Shore, you are drawn to listen and to follow. This is the simplicity of Good News. I don't think we help the cause of the Kingdom is helped when we build walls. There is time enough for the rest of this in the process of sanctification.

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I don't think "gaydar" is the question. I think this is about the fact that there are those who steadfastly refuse to believe that homosexual sex IS sin. Most would have no issues whatsoever with saying, lying is sin or theft is sin or adultery is sin. Gluttony or lust. But absolutely refuse to acknowledge that homosexual sex is sin.

Not just that, but they also approve of those that are doing it. They wouldn't approve of a lying cheating thief. But I hey fully approved of a person committing homosexual sex. Not only approving if it, but actually allowing those involved to be ministers and leaders in the church. Saying they are doing nothing wrong.

There are times in the church where pastors are found to have committed adultery. When they are we don't say, it's okay if you do. We don't approve of it and we don't tell them it's okay to go out and do it as often as they want because it's not a sin.

Yet some churches WILL do just that with people actively involved with homsexual relationships and acts.

Paidiske said:

There is a time and place for this. If I spent my time pointing out every sin I saw, I would do nothing else. But if we do nothing but criticise others, we will not have any sort of relationship with them.

I prefer the advice I've seen variously attributed to different people, originally intended for monastic leaders but which works well for leaders of any faith community:

Notice everything. Overlook a great deal. Correct a little. Cherish the brethren.



I am content, on this forum, to leave the question of same-sex marriage as one of individual conscience.

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Okay, that's all I wanted. You don't believe scripture condemns homosexual sex.

And I do agree we don't run around und and point out every sin we see. But we ARE involved in sending p ople to judgement if we tell them that what they are doing is okay. If you tell a person that theft is a matter of personal conscience or that adultery is the same, we are helping them to be in condemnation and are not loving them.

That's another thing the Bible teaches.

rjs330 said:

I don't think "gaydar" is the question. I think this is about the fact that there are those who steadfastly refuse to believe that homosexual sex IS sin. Most would have no issues whatsoever with saying, lying is sin or theft is sin or adultery is sin. Gluttony or lust. But absolutely refuse to acknowledge that homosexual sex is sin.

Not just that, but they also approve of those that are doing it. They wouldn't approve of a lying cheating thief. But I hey fully approved of a person committing homosexual sex. Not only approving if it, but actually allowing those involved to be ministers and leaders in the church. Saying they are doing nothing wrong.

There are times in the church where pastors are found to have committed adultery. When they are we don't say, it's okay if you do. We don't approve of it and we don't tell them it's okay to go out and do it as often as they want because it's not a sin.

Yet some churches WILL do just that with people actively involved with homsexual relationships and acts.

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Thank you for entirely ignoring the point I made.