The double standard on "what the government tells me I have to wear"

ThatRobGuy

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Yes it does... it's keeping the sky is falling types feeling comfortable.

If by "sky is falling types", you mean the people who understand the science behind the transmission of the virus...

Sorry if this sounds cynical, but when a group spends years claiming that a store putting up "happy holidays" signs is a "war on Christianity", and being paranoid about a commercial featuring a gay couple, but then claims that people who want to protect themselves against a novel virus that has killed over 300k are "just overreacting", it doesn't carry much weight.
 
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Hazelelponi

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If by "sky is falling types", you mean the people who understand the science behind the transmission of the virus...

But don't understand the science of masks...

Yes.. that who I mean.. :)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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But don't understand the science of masks...

Yes.. that who I mean.. :)

I don't doubt that there's people who don't understand the science of masks...but someone's lack of understanding over them doesn't change the underlying science.

For instance, a person who makes one out of an old cut-up shirt clearly doesn't understand it...but that doesn't change the fact that the right type of mask prevents spread of a virus whose primary form of transmission is respiratory droplets.

It's not a controversial concept, it was only portrayed that way because it was politicized.

When medical researchers have worn masks when working in an infectious disease labs for the past umpteen years, nobody accused them of "living in fear" or "being paranoid".


Any logical person understands that if something is spread through respiratory droplets, a mechanism that effectively blocks respiratory droplets from going from one person to another stops the spread.

It's not a coincidence that nations that have had the cultural practice of mask wearing (where it was considered common place) fared much better than nations that didn't during this whole thing.

Singapore (a nation of 5 million): grand total of 29 deaths
USA (a nation of 330 million): total of 386,000 deaths

Even adjusted for population sizes, if Singapore had our population, that would be less than 2,000 deaths.

Similar story for Japan and South Korea.
 
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wing2000

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Singapore (a nation of 5 million): grand total of 29 deaths
USA (a nation of 330 million): total of 386,000 deaths

As I told my Asian work colleagues on a call early this morning, Americans love their freedom.....
 
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zippy2006

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It shouldn't...nor should your opinion matter to a woman who wants to tan topless on a beach where men are allowed to go shirtless... So we're right back to square one.

There are two questions at hand: consistency of legislation and approaches to pluralism. As @nonaeroterraqueous pointed out, there is no inherent inconsistency in opposing masks but enforcing modesty.

If your uncle holds to the maxim, "I shouldn't be forced to wear something I don't want to just to make others more comfortable," while enforcing modesty laws, then he falls afoul of legislative inconsistency.

Like your uncle @nonaeroterraqueous holds the same two propositions regarding masks and modesty, but unlike your uncle he is not being legislatively inconsistent. This is because he does not hold to the same underlying maxim.

The question about how to handle legitimate pluralism or diversity among competing views--even among only those views that are legislatively consistent--is a different matter. It seems to me that "Square one" was legislative consistency, not approaches to pluralism.

So yeah, your uncle is being inconsistent, but not everyone who holds those two propositions is being similarly inconsistent.
 
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loveofourlord

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Had an interesting conversation today with my uncle (who I consider to be pretty far right on the political spectrum), and he was on a tangent about "the government telling me I have to wear a mask in stores and out in public is unconstitutional!", and how "I shouldn't be forced to wear something I don't want to just to make others more comfortable!"

I then brought up to him, the fact that he, not even a year prior to mask mandates being introduced, was angry about the fact that in August/September 2019, women's rights organizations in several states won their legal challenge to allow women to go topless in any place a man can.

...their argument was basically the same as his "Why should the government force me to wear a piece of cloth over a particular part of my body when I don't want to, just to make someone else more comfortable?" (and there's not even any public health concerns in play with the latter, just people having their personal religious sensibilities offended)

Figured it'd be an interesting topic to discuss here.

For those who feel that "mask mandates are an infringement of my freedoms, I shouldn't have to wear something I don't want to for the sake of someone else, if they don't like it, they should just stay at home and not come around me", are you of the same position with regards to women's rights groups advocating for the ability to go top-free in any place a man can without any legal ramifications?

...and to take that even one step further, for those who are most ardently anti-mask and very vocal about it, why hasn't there ever been any widespread vocal complaints about "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policies many stores and restaurants have had in place for decades?

I saw a great meme similar to this, "We can't force kids to wear masks at school." with the same teachers, "You can't wear pants under such a length, you must wear a school uniform, you can't have earrings, you must wear jeans." and other nonsense rules heh.
 
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RDKirk

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All laws, generally speaking, should regard safety or morality. People who claim that we should not legislate morality are full of it. Good laws are all about morality. Though you may disagree with me, I don't think there's anything unsafe about not wearing a mask. Likewise, I do think there's plenty of immorality in having women walk around topless in a culture in which this is a sexual turn-on.
.

A lot of people believe wearing masks is a matter of both safety and morality...hence, masks being worn by news reporters on camera with nobody in the vicinity.

You think masks are unnecessary but going topless is immoral. There are people who think not wearing masks is immoral but going topless is harmless.

Scripture tells us Christians to avoid offending anyone, except for the sake of the gospel. My wife and daughter wear masks and tops.
 
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Sparagmos

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My own two cents on that would be an essay I have read, and a book I have not read yet but was given a summary: The Fate of Empires (1978) by Sir John Bagot Glubb,[1] and Sex & Culture (1934) by J.D. Unwin,[2] respectively.

These two pieces of history literature argue that a cultural obsession with sex is a common sign of a civilization in decline. While I am aware there are numerous tribal societies where female toplessness is socially acceptable, integrating this sort of thing in a Western country could open the door to other things. All the proof I need for the existence of the Slippery Slope argument is this simple reality: Movies, music, and TV shows I grew up watching being considered absolutely scandalous by my Grandparent's generation.

Now, before anyone accuses me of clutching my pearls, just know when I was around the age of thirteen, I wondered, "How was I so unlucky to be born in Canada and not Tahiti..."
  1. http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf
  2. Sex and culture [electronic resource] : Unwin, J. D. (Joseph Daniel), 1895-1936. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The need to cover up comes from the obsession with sex. The U.S., for instance, is far mor “obsessed with sex” than countries where more nudity is allowed.
 
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Gene2memE

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What is your solution(s) to the sexual immorality problems I have pointed out in my previous post?
If it involves any sort of stimulus package, may you provide an estimate of the costs?
May you also provide evidence of its effectiveness?
If so, would you say it is more practical than a monogamous, heterosexual marriage?

Please and thank you.

Education. A comprehensive, mandatory, country wide sex education curriculum - based on the best available evidence and covering not just the physical basis, health when sexually active and risks associated with this, but also education around building strong intimate relationships and personal safety in all aspects. Start this from very early teens at all schools, private or public, and continue it through to the end of schooling.

Reduction of social stigmas associated with contraceptives and birth control. Particularly for condoms and long lasting female contraceptives.

Decriminalisation of prostitution and other forms of sex work.

Promoting concepts of personal responsibility among young men, as well as concepts of joint responsibility among young couples.

Reduce stigmas and costs around counseling for couples.

Campaigns targeting social groups, organisations where sexual violence is prevalent, encompassing individual, peer group and community levels.
 
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Pommer

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These two are talking about lax sexual morals and putting sexual activity on a pedestal. Puritanical views on sex are attempting to enforce standards to minimize the effects the sexual immorality.

Effects of sexual immorality include but NOT limited to abortion,[1] sexually transmitted diseases,[2] social and psychological ramifications of promiscuity,[3] single parent families and the effects it has on the children,[4] which require LOTS and LOTS of taxpayer money to repair.[5][6][7]

So my question is, if an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is worth risking this level of damage to society, what does that say about us as a culture?
  1. Abortion Rates by Country 2020, worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country
  2. “STD Rates Continue to Rise in the U.S.” WebMD, WebMD, 8 Oct. 2019, www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/news/20191008/std-rates-continue-to-rise-in-the-us#1.
  3. Whitbourne, Susan Krauss. “How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health.” Psychology Today, Sussex Publishers, 9 Mar. 2013, www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201303/how-casual-sex-can-affect-our-mental-health.
  4. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e3d/640709c889472858054c8fe3df01cca051d8.pdf
  5. Clark Merrefield, Journalist's Resource April 19. “The Multi-Trillion Dollar Cost of Sexual Violence in the U.S.” Journalist's Resource, 19 Apr. 2019, journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/ecnonomic-cost-sexual-violence/.
  6. “CDC Sexually Transmitted Infection Costs (STIC) Figure and User's Manual.” NCSD, www.ncsddc.org/resource/cdc-sexually-transmitted-infection-costs-stic-figure-and-users-manual/.
  7. Report • By James Lin and Jared Bernstein • October 29. “What We Need to Get by: A Basic Standard of Living Costs $48,778, and Nearly a Third of Families Fall Short.” Economic Policy Institute, www.epi.org/publication/bp224/.
You understand that you’re asking in a forum that’s had “I ain’t wearing no mask” and “arrest all of the maskless”threads, right?
 
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Pommer

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Sounds like your question is more: why are people such lousy moral philosophers? I cant really tell you why people fail to examine the contradictions in their own reasonings.
The reasoning behind the “no homosexuals in the Government” was thus:
“Homosexuals are a security risk. They are a security risk because if ‘bad guys’ got wind of their perversion, then they can blackmail them for fear of being exposed as homosexuals, by which they’d lost their jobs, because,
‘Homosexuals are a security risk’!”

 
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Pommer

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If by "sky is falling types", you mean the people who understand the science behind the transmission of the virus...

Sorry if this sounds cynical, but when a group spends years claiming that a store putting up "happy holidays" signs is a "war on Christianity", and being paranoid about a commercial featuring a gay couple, but then claims that people who want to protect themselves against a novel virus that has killed over 300k are "just overreacting", it doesn't carry much weight.
Thank you.
 
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RDKirk

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The reasoning behind the “no homosexuals in the Government” was thus:
“Homosexuals are a security risk. They are a security risk because if ‘bad guys’ got wind of their perversion, then they can blackmail them for fear of being exposed as homosexuals, by which they’d lost their jobs, because,
‘Homosexuals are a security risk’!”

Not exactly. At the time, being "outed" as a homosexual meant the loss of much more than a job. These days, the consequences are minor to none, so homosexuality is no longer a security risk.
 
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Pommer

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While I am aware there are numerous tribal societies where female toplessness is socially acceptable, integrating this sort of thing in a Western country could open the door to other things.
Wouldn’t this suggest that “Western culture” has no mechanisms for curbing visceral reactions to a “non-Western” custom?
Or
“S***hole countries”, (as our President has called some of them), have more emotional cohesion than “Western culture” countries?
 
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Pommer

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Not exactly. At the time, being "outed" as a homosexual meant the loss of much more than a job. These days, the consequences are minor to none, so homosexuality is no longer a security risk.

Though it can get into a chicken/egg thing..the bottom line was “ick!”
 
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Pommer

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I saw a great meme similar to this, "We can't force kids to wear masks at school." with the same teachers, "You can't wear pants under such a length, you must wear a school uniform, you can't have earrings, you must wear jeans." and other nonsense rules heh.
Yes, this is correct, a large percentage of “the rules” are there to “root out the troublemakers”.
Who are the “troublemakers”?
They’re the ones who “don’t follow the rules”.

Then again arguing about “the rules” is what politics is all about? Innit?
 
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Pommer

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I don't doubt that there's people who don't understand the science of masks...but someone's lack of understanding over them doesn't change the underlying science.

For instance, a person who makes one out of an old cut-up shirt clearly doesn't understand it...but that doesn't change the fact that the right type of mask prevents spread of a virus whose primary form of transmission is respiratory droplets.

It's not a controversial concept, it was only portrayed that way because it was politicized.

When medical researchers have worn masks when working in an infectious disease labs for the past umpteen years, nobody accused them of "living in fear" or "being paranoid".


Any logical person understands that if something is spread through respiratory droplets, a mechanism that effectively blocks respiratory droplets from going from one person to another stops the spread.

It's not a coincidence that nations that have had the cultural practice of mask wearing (where it was considered common place) fared much better than nations that didn't during this whole thing.

Singapore (a nation of 5 million): grand total of 29 deaths
USA (a nation of 330 million): total of 386,000 deaths

Even adjusted for population sizes, if Singapore had our population, that would be less than 2,000 deaths.

Similar story for Japan and South Korea.
This is a major downside to “American Exceptionalism”.
It won’t work here! Yay! USA! USA
 
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Rene Loup

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Education. A comprehensive, mandatory, country wide sex education curriculum - based on the best available evidence and covering not just the physical basis, health when sexually active and risks associated with this, but also education around building strong intimate relationships and personal safety in all aspects. Start this from very early teens at all schools, private or public, and continue it through to the end of schooling.

Reduction of social stigmas associated with contraceptives and birth control. Particularly for condoms and long lasting female contraceptives.

Decriminalisation of prostitution and other forms of sex work.

Promoting concepts of personal responsibility among young men, as well as concepts of joint responsibility among young couples.

Reduce stigmas and costs around counseling for couples.

Campaigns targeting social groups, organisations where sexual violence is prevalent, encompassing individual, peer group and community levels.

Thank you for your ideas. May you answer the next three questions related to them as well?

Please and thank you.

Wouldn’t this suggest that “Western culture” has no mechanisms for curbing visceral reactions to a “non-Western” custom?
Or
“S***hole countries”, (as our President has called some of them), have more emotional cohesion than “Western culture” countries?

Please, let's NOT make this about Donald Trump.

Every culture has different reactions to pretty much EVERYTHING. Growing up, I often thought Japan had a pretty strange culture and I am certain they think the same about mine.

You understand that you’re asking in a forum that’s had “I ain’t wearing no mask” and “arrest all of the maskless”threads, right?

I forgive you for that sarcastic remark.

The need to cover up comes from the obsession with sex. The U.S., for instance, is far mor “obsessed with sex” than countries where more nudity is allowed.

European countries are FAR more relaxed on sex and nudity than North America.[9] This greatly contributes to children being born out of wedlock, varying from country to country.[1][3] Just like the United States of America.[3]

Z7WQk1M.png


Children raised in single-parent families are at higher risk of developing psychological and behavioral problems compared to children born in two-parent families.[2][7][8]

Tribal societies have greater reliance on family and kinship.[6] Stronger family units produce stronger communities.[4][5]

What is more likely going to grab your attention: Someone who dresses modestly, showing minimal skin, or someone who is completely naked?
  1. Share of children born out of wedlock in Europe
  2. What Are The Effects On Children Of Single Parents? | Everyday Health
  3. U.S. has world’s highest rate of children living in single-parent households
  4. Stronger Families, Stronger Societies - NYTimes.com
  5. What Is The Importance Of Family In Modern Society? | Betterhelp
  6. Importance of Kinship For Both Tribal and Rural So­cieties
  7. Single-Parent Kids More At Risk
  8. Are Children Raised With Absent Fathers Worse Off?
  9. Europeans on nudity: Just grin and bare it
 
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durangodawood

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...So my question is, if an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is worth risking this level of damage to society...
If that specific moment is where the value of sex is for you... then perhaps you arent understanding why sex is such a motivating force.
 
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