20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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Spiritual Jew

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This error is the basis of your and SJ's misunderstanding.
Lets look at the three prophesies that do clearly teach about Jesus' Return:

Zechariah 14:3 Then, [after the conquering of the people of Jerusalem, as described in Revelation 13:5-8] the Lord will go out and fight against the nations....
As described in Revelation 16:13-18, His destruction of the 'beasts' army at Armageddon. No fire is mentioned there.

Matthew 24:30. No mention of fire there.

Revelation 19:11-21 Jesus Return as King of Kings. He destroys the 'beasts army by the Sword of His Word. No fire mentioned there.
Those passages also do not say that His enemies aren't destroyed by fire at His second coming. You're making what is called an argument from silence here which proves nothing.

In the case of the Matt 24, Rev 16 and Rev 19 passages it does not specify in what form the destruction comes, so how can you say it can't be by fire based on those passages? The sword coming out of His mouth is clearly a figurative term, so please don't try to tell me that Revelation 19 specifies what causes the destruction at His coming.

Your belief that 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 refers to the Return, is wrong. It is a prophecy about the Sixth seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun. Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1-3, Psalms 50:1-3, Psalms 11:4-6, +
That is your private interpretation. Do you know of any other non-preterist besides you who agrees with you that 2 Thess 1:6-10 does not refer to the return of Christ? I sure don't. Please explain to me why God would reveal something like this only to you.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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'Gerrymandering', means; to shift the boundaries to suit another outcome.
I did not do that, I posted 3 plain scriptures that show Jesus does not use fire at His Return.
None of them specifically said that, so you are being a bit dishonest here. If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that those other passages do not specify the method of destruction being used at His second coming.

This type of arguing from silence is more typical of pre-tribs who try to argue that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event than Matt 24:29-31 because the rapture or catching up to Christ is not specifically mentioned in Matt 24:29-31.

But 2nd Peter 3 clearly does and I believe 2 Thess 1:7 alludes to that as well by saying that Christ will come "in flaming fire". What other form of destruction would lead Paul to say in 1 Thess 5:2-3 that there will be "sudden destruction" when Christ comes to the point where "they shall not escape"?
 
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keras

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You or no Premil will or can prove a future millennium in Zechariah 14. All you have is private interpretation.
All you have is private opinion.
The prophecy is clear: Zechariah 14:20-21...the pots in the Lord's House will be the sacred vessels before the Altar.....and there shall be no more the ungodly in the House of the Lord of Hosta.
Those passages also do not say that His enemies aren't destroyed by fire at His second coming. You're making what is called an argument from silence here which proves nothing.

In the case of the Matt 24, Rev 16 and Rev 19 passages it does not specify in what form the destruction comes, so how can you say it can't be by fire based on those passages? The sword coming out of His mouth is clearly a figurative term, so please don't try to tell me that Revelation 19 specifies what causes the destruction at His coming.
There are about 70 Bible prophesies that do specify how the Lord will send fire at the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord.
But at the glorious Return, fire is never mentioned and as the carcasses of the dead soldiers become food for the birds and animals, they are not burned up.
1 Thessalonians 2:1-I showed how the Lord
That is your private interpretation. Do you know of any other non-preterist besides you who agrees with you that 2 Thess 1:6-10 does not refer to the return of Christ? I sure don't. Please explain to me why God would reveal something like this only to you.
Is it your habit to just ignore proofs which contradict you beliefs?
I showed how the Lord will appear over His people, on His Day of fiery wrath, proving that 1 Thess 1:6-10 relates the Day of wrath, not the Return. Others do agree with me, as the context of that prophecy is not about the Return.
1 Thessalonians 2:1 does refer to Jesus Return and then describes more things that must happen before it.
None of them specifically said that, so you are being a bit dishonest here. If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that those other passages do not specify the method of destruction being used at His second coming.
Honesty would be nice, why don't you try it?
It is obvious that Jesus does NOT use fire to destroy the armies at Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18
But 2nd Peter 3 clearly does and I believe 2 Thess 1:7 alludes to that as well by saying that Christ will come "in flaming fire". What other form of destruction would lead Paul to say in 1 Thess 5:2-3 that there will be "sudden destruction" when Christ comes to the point where "they shall not escape"?
All those prophesies and about 100 others, are about the Sixth Seal. The great world changer that will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns, Revelation 6:12 to 19:10
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There are about 70 Bible prophesies that do specify how the Lord will send fire at the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord.
But at the glorious Return, fire is never mentioned and as the carcasses of the dead soldiers become food for the birds and animals, they are not burned up.
So, you are misinterpreting 70 Bible prophecies then. You're not recognizing the figurative language in Revelation 19. Do you think Jesus will be slaughtering people with a literal giant sword coming out of His mouth?

1 Thessalonians 2:1-I showed how the Lord
Is it your habit to just ignore proofs which contradict you beliefs?
I showed how the Lord will appear over His people, on His Day of fiery wrath, proving that 1 Thess 1:6-10 relates the Day of wrath, not the Return. Others do agree with me, as the context of that prophecy is not about the Return.
Who agrees with your interpretation of 2 Thess 1:6-10 as not being about His return besides preterists? Anyone on this forum?

Honesty would be nice, why don't you try it?
It is obvious that Jesus does NOT use fire to destroy the armies at Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18
Show me exactly where it says they are not destroyed by fire.
 
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keras

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So, you are misinterpreting 70 Bible prophecies then.
Maybe you could explain these:
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals upon the wicked.

Hebrews 10:27... a terrifying judgement of fire, that will consume God’s enemies.

Isaiah 30:26-30 On the Day the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with 7 times its normal strength..... and the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty, His arm descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire, amid rain and hail storms.

Psalms 144:5-6 Lord part the heavens, make lightning flashes far and wide.

Isaiah 66:15-17 The Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind, He will judge with fire. His sword will test mankind, many will be slain by Him.

Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, earthquakes and a flame of devouring fire.


Isaiah 9:18-19 The Land is scorched by the Lord, the people are fuel for the fire.

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens the Lord will avenge His people and cleanse their Land.

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion quake with terror- can any live in this devouring fire?

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish Judah as they deserve, I shall set fire to your scrubland.

Ezekiel 20:45-48 Prophesy to the scrubland of the Negev, I am about to kindle a fire in you- it will consume everything flammable. From the Negev, northward, everyone will be scorched by it.
Reference: REB, NIV. Verses abridged.


All of these prophecies describe an event that cannot be compared with the Return of Jesus. At that time, He destroys the armies of the Anti-Christ, by the Sword of His Word. Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:15 & 21 They do not match the “sheep and goat” judgement in Matthew 25:31-46.

Also, at the end of the Millennium, the armies of the nations again attack – Rev. 20:7-10, but the context of the above passages rules out their application to that event.
We see, in Deuteronomy 32:34-43, that this judgement will cleanse the Land.

Many verses tell of a fire judgement upon Judah [the Jews] and the surrounding enemies, this will not be a nuclear exchange, as that would pollute the Land.

Flames of devouring fire”– “fire in the Negev”- “arrows like lightning”- “consuming fire,” etc, all describe what would happen if a Coronal Mass Ejection [C.M.E.] struck the Middle East. The resulting population clearance, Ezekiel 30:1-5, will allow the fulfilment of the many prophecies which say how all the faithful Christian will gather and settle there. These events will disrupt the world economy and set the stage for the Anti Christ.
You're not recognizing the figurative language in Revelation 19
Plain statements are not figurative.
Do you think Jesus will be slaughtering people with a literal giant sword coming out of His mouth?
No, but His Word does come from there and it will kill all those attackers.
Who agrees with your interpretation of 2 Thess 1:6-10 as not being about His return besides preterists? Anyone on this forum?
Lets hear from the lurkers here. Try to prove it is at the Return.
Show me exactly where it says they are not destroyed by fire.
Show me exactly why the chicken crossed the road. Just about as stupid a question!
Fire is not mentioned in the Battle of Armageddon.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Maybe you could explain these:
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals upon the wicked.

Hebrews 10:27... a terrifying judgement of fire, that will consume God’s enemies.

Isaiah 30:26-30 On the Day the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with 7 times its normal strength..... and the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty, His arm descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire, amid rain and hail storms.

Psalms 144:5-6 Lord part the heavens, make lightning flashes far and wide.

Isaiah 66:15-17 The Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind, He will judge with fire. His sword will test mankind, many will be slain by Him.

Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, earthquakes and a flame of devouring fire.


Isaiah 9:18-19 The Land is scorched by the Lord, the people are fuel for the fire.

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens the Lord will avenge His people and cleanse their Land.

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion quake with terror- can any live in this devouring fire?

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish Judah as they deserve, I shall set fire to your scrubland.

Ezekiel 20:45-48 Prophesy to the scrubland of the Negev, I am about to kindle a fire in you- it will consume everything flammable. From the Negev, northward, everyone will be scorched by it.
Reference: REB, NIV. Verses abridged.


All of these prophecies describe an event that cannot be compared with the Return of Jesus. At that time, He destroys the armies of the Anti-Christ, by the Sword of His Word. Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:15 & 21 They do not match the “sheep and goat” judgement in Matthew 25:31-46.

Also, at the end of the Millennium, the armies of the nations again attack – Rev. 20:7-10, but the context of the above passages rules out their application to that event.
We see, in Deuteronomy 32:34-43, that this judgement will cleanse the Land.

Many verses tell of a fire judgement upon Judah [the Jews] and the surrounding enemies, this will not be a nuclear exchange, as that would pollute the Land.

Flames of devouring fire”– “fire in the Negev”- “arrows like lightning”- “consuming fire,” etc, all describe what would happen if a Coronal Mass Ejection [C.M.E.] struck the Middle East. The resulting population clearance, Ezekiel 30:1-5, will allow the fulfilment of the many prophecies which say how all the faithful Christian will gather and settle there. These events will disrupt the world economy and set the stage for the Anti Christ.

Plain statements are not figurative.

No, but His Word does come from there and it will kill all those attackers.

Lets hear from the lurkers here. Try to prove it is at the Return.

Show me exactly why the chicken crossed the road. Just about as stupid a question!
Fire is not mentioned in the Battle of Armageddon.
You refuse to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament for you. That is your downfall. Your doctrine contradicts clear scripture like 2 Peter 3:3-13 and 2 Thess 1:7-10, which both clearly speak of what will occur on the day Christ returns. You go ahead and stick with your convoluted doctrine based on unrelated passages if you want. That's your choice.
 
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Timtofly

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Your silence is deafening. You know it is not there. You force it into the sacred text. That is classic Premil - it is based on faulty private interpretation.
Your answer is that Revelation 20 is too silent for your taste, therefore you make it say what you want it to say?
 
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Timtofly

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You refuse to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament for you. That is your downfall. Your doctrine contradicts clear scripture like 2 Peter 3:3-13 and 2 Thess 1:7-10, which both clearly speak of what will occur on the day Christ returns. You go ahead and stick with your convoluted doctrine based on unrelated passages if you want. That's your choice.
So John giving us the definite time frame of 1000 years does not clear up any OT passages?

You deny your own requirement of NT clarity, when you deny John's literal time frame of a future 1000 years. So you reject both the NT clarity and the OT prophecy at the same time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So John giving us the definite time frame of 1000 years does not clear up any OT passages?

You deny your own requirement of NT clarity, when you deny John's literal time frame of a future 1000 years. So you reject both the NT clarity and the OT prophecy at the same time.

This is a moot argument.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So John giving us the definite time frame of 1000 years does not clear up any OT passages?

You deny your own requirement of NT clarity, when you deny John's literal time frame of a future 1000 years. So you reject both the NT clarity and the OT prophecy at the same time.
You only assume it's a literal thousand years.

Was Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24 a literal 70 weeks (490 days) or was it 490 years? If you agree that it was 490 years, then why would you assume any prophecy that specifies a time period has to be literal?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You only assume it's a literal thousand years.

Was Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24 a literal 70 weeks (490 days) or was it 490 years? If you agree that it was 490 years, then why would you assume any prophecy that specifies a time period has to be literal?

Exactly bro!
 
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DavidPT

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This is a moot argument.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?


Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.


Amils often argue, that if a literal thousand years were meant in Revelation 20, it would have said one thousand years, rather than a thousand years. In the above is an example of one thousand. Is this a literal or figurative thousand? And if it is a figurative thousand, which it appears to be, doesn't this at least prove that it doesn't matter whether there is a one in front of thousand or not, it can still mean both literal and figurative?

Examples of literal.

I have ten one hundred dollar bills I will give you for that tv. I will give you a thousand dollars for it.

I have ten one hundred dollar bills I will give you for that tv. I will give you one thousand dollars for it.

As can be seen here, a literal thousand can be meant either way.

Examples of figurative.

One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one

A thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one

As can be seen here, a figurative thousand can be meant either way.

Seriously then, what exactly is it that Amils are thinking they are proving here?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Isaiah 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.


Amils often argue, that if a literal thousand years were meant in Revelation 20, it would have said one thousand years, rather than a thousand years. In the above is an example of one thousand. Is this a literal or figurative thousand? And if it is a figurative thousand, which it appears to be, doesn't this at least prove that it doesn't matter whether there is a one in front of thousand or not, it can still mean both literal and figurative?

Examples of literal.

I have ten one hundred dollar bills I will give you for that tv. I will give you a thousand dollars for it.

I have ten one hundred dollar bills I will give you for that tv. I will give you one thousand dollars for it.

As can be seen here, a literal thousand can be meant either way.

Examples of figurative.

One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one

A thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one

As can be seen here, a figurative thousand can be meant either way.

Seriously then, what exactly is it that Amils are thinking they are proving here?

'A thousand' is still used in a general non-specific way today to describe 'a lot'. I am not sure why such a view is so strange to you. The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.

Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavors starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

People also use ‘a thousand’ as a round figure or as a phrase to describe a general amount. If they had $1053 (literally pronounced one thousand and fifty three dollars) it wouldn't be uncommon or unusual to say I had a thousand dollars. They would simply round it off to a familiar even number. This is where 10, 100, 1,000, and 10,000 are often used. These are not wooden numbers.
 
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Seriously then, what exactly is it that Amils are thinking they are proving here?
The attempt by some here to make the thousand years, as stated six times in Revelation 20; into an allegorical time period, is a blatant attempt to deny and reject the plain prophesies of the Bible.
In this case; the Words of Jesus to His servants.

People who do this, incur the curse of Revelation 22:18-19
 
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The attempt by some here to make the thousand years, as stated six times in Revelation 20; into an allegorical time period, is a blatant attempt to deny and reject the plain prophesies of the Bible.
In this case; the Words of Jesus to His servants.

People who do this, incur the curse of Revelation 22:18-19

The figure a “thousand years” is employed ten times in Scripture – twice in the Old Testament and eight times in the New Testament. Significantly, of the eight mentions in the New, six are found in the same book of the Bible – Revelation. And of even greater note, all are disproportionately found together within the same chapter – the one currently under examination – Revelation 20. The two other New Testament references are found in the book of 2 Peter 3. In all the references, they indicate a large unspecific indefinite time period.

The two Old Testament passages are found in Psalm 90 and Ecclesiastes 6. And in both references the figure ‘a thousand years’ is used in a symbolic or figurative sense to denote an indefinite time-span. The first mention is in Psalm 90:3-5, where we read, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

This passage is often advanced by Premillennialists as proof of a literal physical future earthly millennium. Such people confidently advance it in such a way, as if it states, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’. However, a careful reading of this inspired narrative reveals that it rather in stark contrast declares, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.” This passage therefore does not in the slightest allude to the future, never mind to some supposed impending earthly post Second Advent temporal period, but clearly to the past. This passage simply reveals profound truth about God and His infinite view of time rather than any misconceived earthly idea about a future millennium.

The thousand years are notably "as yesterday" rather than 'as tomorrow' or 'as a future period after Christ's Coming'.

A ‘thousand years’ is here used to describe God’s eternal view of time, which is in stark contrast to man’s limited understanding. This text teaches us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. This reading goes on then to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9).

No wonder the Psalmist humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (Psalm 90:12).

In Ecclesiastes 6:3,6-7 we find the second Old Testament reference to a thousand years. Here the term is simply used to represent an idea rather than outlining a specific measurable period of time. It reads, “If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he…Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.”

This text is not remotely suggesting that a person could actually live to be a thousand years multiplied by two (or 2,000 years), such is, and has always been since the fall, a naturally impossibility. Rather, the text expresses a deep spiritual truth that even if someone lives to an incomprehensible age outside of Christ and hope, this life is completely meaningless. The term a 1000 multiplied by 2 therefore represents a hypothetically number, which spiritually impresses the important reality of the brevity and futility of carnal life. No man in Scripture, or since, has ever lived to the age of 2,000 years old.

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbour the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (vv 5-9).

This familiar passage closely parallels the reading that we have just analysed in Psalm 90, indicating the same spiritual truth – that God is not limited to time. Again, notably, the contrast between the number one and a thousand is employed to simply represent an important divine truth.

Some theologians mistakenly attempt to use this passage to argue that one of God’s eternal days represents a literal thousand earthly years and that the commencement occurs at the time of Second Advent. However, they do err in their assumption, in that, this text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in anyway indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. Peter is simply reminding such people that time is absolutely nothing to the King of glory. He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state.

Christ speaks of the unprepared state of many professing believers, who are exposed for their unpreparedness in Luke 12:45-46, saying, if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters. Peter says in response, “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Peter thus outlines two distinct yet contrasting time equations in this passage for the sole purpose of expressing a deep spiritual truth. Notwithstanding, and not surprisingly, the Premillennialist are swift to selectively advance the first aspect of this calculation as supposed evidence that one of God’s heavenly days represents a thousand literal temporal earthly years. However, whilst they unquestionably address, and happily literalise, the first part of this calculation they are understandably careful to side step the second part of the sum. Evidently, such is for the reason that it doesn’t fit their flawed hyper-literalist mode of interpretation.

Significantly, this reading in no place suggests the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years. The Premillennialist forces that into the reading. In the above passage it simply indicates “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Those who take the aforementioned verses to support a future 1,000-year millennium of peace are faced with an insurmountable inconsistency when they examine the detail of the remainder of the chapter, and try and get it to fit their paradigm. 2 Peter 3:10-13 continues,the day of the Lord will come (or arrive) as thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall ‘go or pass away, or perish’ with a great noise, and the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be ‘burned up utterly or consumed wholly’. Seeing then that all these things shall be ‘dissolved, loosened or broke up’ … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be ‘dissolved, melted or loosed’, and the elements shall ‘melt by being set on fire’?” Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This passage is so clear, final and all-consummating that one wonders how anyone could remotely imagine that creation could survive such an all-consummating fiery event. One also wonders how the Holy Spirit could have possibly advanced more explicit language to indicate the idea of total devastation. Whatever way you look at this chapter there is absolutely no allowance made or possibility for a future post-Second Coming millennial kingdom on this earth. Peter knows of no other coming of Christ other than that which eradicate the heavens, elements and the earth in one stupendous conflagration.

Anyone who contends that this passage supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of these last verses. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

You fail to take into account that the remaining righteous who enter into the millennial Kingdom do repopulate the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean that their children are going to be righteous. A vast multitude, despite having lived in the presence of Christ and under conditions far better than the present conditions we live under, are still going to side with Satan against Christ when he his loosed from his prison after the thousand years has ended and is given opportunity to deceive the nations of the world to determine as to where all the people truly stand. The righteous will enter into the new heavens and the new earth whereas the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire..

The kingdom that you anticipate is a sin-curse, goat-infested, death blighted fiasco. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale supposedly submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!
 
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keras

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Anyone who contends that this passage supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of these last verses. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day
When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy the world. He comes to reign over it. The 3 main prophesies that tell us about what will happen at Jesus Return, do not sat He destroys anything other than the armies at Armageddon. Zechariah 14:3 Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30, which says He will come AFTER the time of distress. verse 29

Your lengthy post fails to prove Amill.
This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.
And rants like this show how wrong and confused you are.
Jesus will reign and the world will be in peace and prosperity. ONLY at the end of the 1000 year, will Satan be released for a short time. He will deceive many, they will go to destruction for changing their allegiance.
 
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sovereigngrace

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When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy the world. He comes to reign over it. The 3 main prophesies that tell us about what will happen at Jesus Return, do not sat He destroys anything other than the armies at Armageddon. Zechariah 14:3 Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30, which says He will come AFTER the time of distress. verse 29

Your lengthy post fails to prove Amill.

And rants like this show how wrong and confused you are.
Jesus will reign and the world will be in peace and prosperity. ONLY at the end of the 1000 year, will Satan be released for a short time. He will deceive many, they will go to destruction for changing their allegiance.

Not so. Your teachers have taught you wrong.
 
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Timtofly

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This is a moot argument.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
And how do any of those verses apply to a Day with the Lord?

Has it been a literal 2000 years since the Cross or do you not look at time in years?
 
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Timtofly

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You only assume it's a literal thousand years.

Was Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24 a literal 70 weeks (490 days) or was it 490 years? If you agree that it was 490 years, then why would you assume any prophecy that specifies a time period has to be literal?
Why would I assume John is lying? Did you assume that when you started at Revelation 1:1 that John may being lying at certain points? John gave us no reason to take this chapter symbolically. Do you not assume that the NHNE are literal? Is the description of the New Jerusalem literal or symbolic?

I am curious which idea came first that 1000 cannot exist or a climactic end has to exist. It is like the chicken and egg conundrum. There is time between the 7th Trumpet and the NHNE, but why would John worry about that time, if it was not a literal 1000 years? Why could he have not said 30 minutes? 30 seconds? Or no time at all? Why would he be this specific at this point in the narrative? If there is a definite, finite amount of time, why would John not tell us the exact amount? Did John ruin it by not making it a mystery and symbolic like other parts of the letter? If the battle of Armageddon is just symbolism is the coming of Christ at the battle not literal? At what point do you claim John can and cannot be literal? The GWT seems literal to me. The NHNE and New Jerusalem seems literal to me. It is chapters 17 and 18 that are symbolism. Who gets to even decide?
 
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However, they do err in their assumption, in that, this text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in anyway indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. Peter is simply reminding such people that time is absolutely nothing to the King of glory. He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state.
Peter does define this time as a Day with the Lord. Since the Lord of the vineyard is going to be on earth it is going to be 1000 years. Are you a cynic when it comes to God's plan of this future time? Do you scoff at the idea of Christ ruling on earth, since you do move this time to a different period of the vineyard when the Lord is not present on the earth? How do we know that amil are not being described here? Amil also despise dispensationalism, by saying nothing has changed since creation, it has just been one long age. See, being figurative has it's uses to change the literal warning Peter gave these end time scoffers. You cannot even accuse me of being literal. But you may say that is misrepresenting us. Do you not move this "indefinite" time, via turning a literal number into a figurative one so you can move it? Is that not scoffing the fact Christ the Lord is literally on the earth at the battle of Armageddon and is now going to reign? You could at least say an unknown amount of time, but then that would be foolish, because it says 1000 years. Then you move the goal post and say it is not immediately at the battle of Armageddon. This is circular reasoning. It cannot be after Armageddon so we will say it is figurative and move it to the church age. Thus it cannot be 1000 years, because it has been 1990 years, thus we will call it figurative so we can move it from after the battle of Armageddon where it belongs.

You are totally avoiding the fact there is time between the battle of Armageddon and the GWT. This time is not an invention. It is God's Word, Revelation 20.
 
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