sovereigngrace

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I at least don't agree with the Dispensationalist take on this, yet I still agree with them that there is a gap in the 70 weeks somewhere. There is no way there can't be since all of verse 27 is pertaining to what transpires during the 70th week. And as long as some refuse to admit that, I see zero way they could be correctly interpreting the entire 70 weeks. I'm sure they are correct about some of it, but unless one is also correct about the rest of it, I don't see being correct about just some of it quite cutting it.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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friend of said:
So many posts and yet nobody knows what they're talking about! Lol
jeffweedaman said:
Care to enlighten us friend.
Not really. I have no idea what's going on in this thread anyway
So, apparently, you are actually the one who doesn't know what they're talking about?
 
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DavidPT

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I take it that you're getting your idea that there must be a physical temple in place again for the AOD to be fulfilled, and I take it that you're interpreting 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 in the light of this.

However there are some important facts that those who say this are ignorant of:

The Greek New Testament uses two words for "temple", one of which (Greek: naos) refers to the holy place & most holy place of the temple in Jerusalem; and the other one (Greek: hieron) referring to the outer courts and buildings, and the entire temple precincts:

View attachment 290509

The word naos, referring to the holy place is used in the following verses, which all refer either to the holy place or most holy place of the temple in Jerusalem, or to the body of Christ, the church, and the temple of God in heaven:

View attachment 290510

Unlike the word naos, the word referring to the temple structure and precincts continues to be used in the Greek New Testament throughout, in all references to the temple in Jerusalem:

View attachment 290511
View attachment 290512

If we dig deeper into which "temple" is meant in Revelation 11:1-2, the following facts come to light:

A. The holy city
Rev.21:2 & 10 and Rev.22:19 call new Jerusalem (the city in heaven), the holy city.

B. Sodom and Egypt
Rev.11:8 calls Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt",

Is it likely that Revelation chapter 11 will call Jerusalem which exists on earth both the holy city AND Sodom and Egypt?

C. Rev.11:2 links the outer court of the same temple spoken of in verse 1, to the holy city:

"And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months." (Rev.11:1-2).

D. The Greek word naos is used for "temple" in verses 1 & 2.

E. Daniel prophesied that the final world ruler will overcome the saints:

"And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time." (Dan.7:25) .

F. Revelation chapter 13 (Rev.13:7) tells us that the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war against the saints and overcome them, and will be given authority to rule for forty-two months ("a time, times and a half a time"); and Revelation 11 tells us that when "the two witnesses" complete their testimony, the same beast will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

QUESTION:
Since the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city, and Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt", and since Rev.11:2 links the outer court of the same temple spoken of in verse 1, to the holy city, and since Revelation 11:1-2 use the word "naos" for temple, does it seem likely that it's talking about a physical temple in Jerusalem on earth?

The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also called "the son of perdition". The only other person in the New Testament who received that title was Judas Iscariot, the traitor and betrayer who all the other apostles and disciples considered a trusted follower of Jesus and one of His inner circle. Only Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 uses the word naos when speaking of the temple this man of sin will seat himself up in.

Therefore since following the verses speaking about the tearing of the veil, the word naos is only used in reference to saints as the temple of God, the congregation of saints as the temple of God and in reference to the temple in heaven, why would the AOD of which you speak not have taken place in the first century, and why would a physical temple in Jerusalem have anything to do with the Church?


What a lot of you don't grasp or seem to want to grasp, the way you are understanding some of these things, which is basically how I'm understanding some of these things, can actually work with a gap in the 70 weeks.
 
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Yesha

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Not necessarily, assuming that part is referring to Christ. It could just mean that the gap is not between the 69th and 70th week, but is in the middle of the 70th week. No matter how you look at it, this part----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---couldn't possibly mean something that is fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death, thus a gap if Christ is meant in verse 27. And the fact the great trib is 42 months according to Revelation 13:5 and other NT Scriptures, and that the great trib would be future from the time of the cross, Christ would continue confirming the covenant with many the remainder of the week by them continuing to worship Him rather than the beast. That would be the logic as I see it if Christ is meant in verse 27 as the one confirming the covenant with many for one week, and that the gap is in the middle of the 70th week. And since there has to be a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks, regardless, I guess it's at least possible it might be in the middle of the 70th week instead.

Food for thought, per the following. The first 69 weeks, or maybe even 69 and 1/2 weeks, lead to the death of the real Christ. After the middle of the 70th week it leads to the death of the antichrist. The first 69 weeks, or maybe even 69 and 1/2 weeks, plus any gap after that, involve the first coming. The 70th week leads to the 2nd coming, maybe the entire week or maybe just the last half of it. And it's not like there are not two comings of Christ involved. Obviously, at least to me anyway, two comings were initially hidden in the text in Daniel 9, but have since been revealed in the text in light of the NT.

Even though I believe the 70th week is future, or maybe just the latter half, since both are possibilities, I don't take it to involve what others who see it being future take it to involve. These things will be involving the spiritual not the literal, therefore no literal temple involved where animal sacrificing resumes then is put to end again. I see that as total nonsense. What I don't see as total nonsense is the AC trying to entirely do away with what Christ accomplished on the cross, by directing worship towards him rather than God, which he appears to do in the final 42 months of this age. And the fact 42 months is 1/2 of 7 years, either that's a coincidence that so does something sinister also happen during the latter half of the 70th week, that according to Daniel 9:27, or that maybe someone is trying to tell us something here instead.

I appreciate your desire to make sense of Daniel's prophecy. I think there's a big hermeneutical difference between us which is leading to a very different interpretation of Daniel 9 as well as other eschatological passages (e.g., Revelation 13:5). Unpacking all of our hermeneutical principles and presuppositions would be daunting for a single post.

Instead I'd like to ask you what you mean when you say that "there has to be a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks". Daniel doesn't mention a gap. He talks about 70 sevens but doesn't state in the text that this prophetic period is not contiguous. How are you concluding that a gap must exist?
 
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Original Happy Camper

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The vision is 2300 days, not years of the SDA view,

This day-year principle specifically applies to prophecy and is used for prophetic interpretation of "days" in prophecies.

So you use the day-year principle in prophecy only in some occasions to support your interpretation, but not "days" in all prophesy.

It is amazing that in the vision given to Daniel you apply the principle to the 70 weeks (490 years) but not to the 2300 days in the same prophecy.

This indicates that you are making THE WORD OF GOD fit you interpretation instead of letting the bible explain itself.

The LORD JESUS CHRIST is consistent, you are not.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What a lot of you don't grasp or seem to want to grasp, the way you are understanding some of these things, which is basically how I'm understanding some of these things, can actually work with a gap in the 70 weeks.
If you could just show something (anything!) within the prophecy itself that would even remotely hint at there being a gap somewhere within the 70 weeks, that would be very helpful. Can you do that? If not, then I see no reason that we need to grasp what you're grasping.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Yes, just as Daniels prophecy says. The end of the 69th 'week'.

Please explain how you interpret this verse as when Jesus died on the cross the curtain was rent thus doing away with animal sacrifices

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

midst
/midst,mitst/

preposition
archaic•literary
preposition: midst
  1. in the middle of.
noun
noun: midst; plural noun: midsts
the middle point or part
 
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Davy

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Christ made full atonement for the world when he died. This is fundamental to all Christians.

Making an end of sin and atonement for iniquity is dependent of course upon THOSE WHO BELIEVE on Jesus.

Since when did the majority of orthodox Jews believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah?
 
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sovereigngrace

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What a lot of you don't grasp or seem to want to grasp, the way you are understanding some of these things, which is basically how I'm understanding some of these things, can actually work with a gap in the 70 weeks.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Making an end of sin and atonement for iniquity is dependent of course upon THOSE WHO BELIEVE on Jesus.

Since when did the majority of orthodox Jews believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah?

Where did it ever say they would? Did Jesus not tell Israel in Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen"?

Orthodox Jews are the spiritual offspring of the Pharisees.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I would appreciate that all on this thread who believe in the gap theory for the 70 weeks prophecy would be honest and admit that it is a Jesuit counter reformation teaching that they are following.

That is the origin of the gap theory
 
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jeffweedaman

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I appreciate your desire to make sense of Daniel's prophecy. I think there's a big hermeneutical difference between us which is leading to a very different interpretation of Daniel 9 as well as other eschatological passages (e.g., Revelation 13:5). Unpacking all of our hermeneutical principles and presuppositions would be daunting for a single post.

Instead I'd like to ask you what you mean when you say that "there has to be a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks". Daniel doesn't mention a gap. He talks about 70 sevens but doesn't state in the text that this prophetic period is not contiguous. How are you concluding that a gap must exist?

I would think that the 70 weeks should be taken in the same context as the 70 years of captivity that had no gap.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Right. It's just me. Everyone else in this thread is correct.
No, not everyone. But, you said everyone didn't know what they were talking about. How would you know that when you admitted yourself that you don't know what you're talking about?
 
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Douggg

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I would appreciate that all on this thread who believe in the gap theory for the 70 weeks prophecy would be honest and admit that it is a Jesuit counter reformation teaching that they are following.

That is the origin of the gap theory
I would say that the 70th week still being unfulfilled is counter to the reformation teachings on eschatology, and who is the Antichrist, and replacement theology, yes. But I would not taint it with the Jesuits who claim that the Pope is the representative for Jesus.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Making an end of sin and atonement for iniquity is dependent of course upon THOSE WHO BELIEVE on Jesus.
No, it is not. Jesus is the only One who could fulfill what is written in Daniel 9:24-27.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

If it was up to mortal, sinful man to fulfill the prophecy instead of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ then the prophecy would never be fulfilled.

Since when did the majority of orthodox Jews believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah?
It would be great if they did, but it's not reasonable to think that they ever will. But, that has nothing to do with Daniel's 70 week prophecy, anyway.
 
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friend of

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No, not everyone. But, you said everyone didn't know what they were talking about. How would you know that when you admitted yourself that you don't know what you're talking about?

Because of all the conflicting reports. Someone has to be wrong, right?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I would think that the 70 weeks should be taken in the same context as the 70 years of captivity that had no gap.
Agree. If someone could show a gap within any of the prophecies in scripture that mention specific time periods (the thousand years, the 70 years of captivity that you mentioned, 2300 days, 1260 days, etc.) then they might have a point. But, otherwise, there is no evidence whatsoever for the idea that any of the prophecies in scripture that are said to last for a certain time period have a gap.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Because of all the conflicting reports. Someone has to be wrong, right?
Yes, but not necessarily everyone, as you claimed. That is my point. Maybe you should not try to say that everyone doesn't know what they're talking about when you admitted yourself that you don't know what's going on in this thread.

You were invited to enlighten all of us and you declined. That was apparently because you don't know the correct interpretation of the prophecy yourself. So, how can you even know that everyone else is incorrect or not with that being the case? The only thing we know for sure is that not everyone is correct since there are conflicting interpretations. But, it's not right to say that everyone doesn't know what they're talking about.
 
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Douggg

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Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
Daniel 11:36-Daniel 12:13 is end times. Daniel 11:36 is preceded by v35 as the transition verse, while the verses and events before it are historic.

Daniel 11:40, time of the end.

Daniel 12:4, time of the end. Daniel 12:7, time/times/half times. Daniel 12:11, 1290 days. Daniel 12:12, 1335 days.
 
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