Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

Spiritual Jew said:

What exactly do you believe is still left to occur in the future as it relates to Bible prophecy?

Click to expand...

I believe He is "making all things new"....and that Isaiah 9:7 is continual....ongoing....

mkgal1 said:

My views typically seem full preterist to those that filter Scripture through a preconceived futurist system

Click to expand...

You understand that I don't do that, don't you? I am neither preterist nor futurist. Both systems are too extreme and their extremism leads to false interpretations, in my opinion.

....instead of allowing Scripture to lead them into the truthful theological framework. That may sound prideful. but all I'm suggesting is that we should allow Scripture to inform us of the truthful framework....not have our chosen framework inform us of what Scripture means.

Click to expand...

That is what I do.

My views are the same as the historical Church. I believe in the Apostles Creed.

Click to expand...

I believe you rely too much on non-scriptural documents for understanding. The creeds are not equivalent to scripture. I believe you need to toss those in the trash can and just rely on scripture and the Holy Spirit for understanding.

I don't believe the disciples or Jesus were confused about the timing of the coming of the Son of Man (which is NOT the same as His *return*).

Click to expand...

It is the same as His return as it relates to the coming of the Son of man "after the tribulation of those days" and after "the times of the Gentiles" because the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of His people to Himself, the day of judgment, and the killing of all unbelievers on the earth has not yet occurred.

That doesn't mean....again....does not mean...I reject a future *return* of Jesus. Most definitely I believe "He will come again" (Nicene Creed). Full preterists do not believe that.

Click to expand...

So, where exactly do you believe scripture teaches the future return of Jesus?

mkgal1 said:

I believe He is "making all things new"....and that Isaiah 9:7 is continual....ongoing....

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.​

Click to expand...

You told me in your other latest post that you do believe in the future return of Jesus, but you didn't mention that here. Please explain.

Spiritual Jew said:

You understand that I don't do that, don't you? I am neither preterist nor futurist. Both systems are too extreme and their extremism leads to false interpretations, in my opinion.

Click to expand...

We can hold to a certain bias that keeps us from seeing Truth (for instance: believing a certain line is "too extreme" and thus false will cause us to reject something with a knee-jerk response without even giving it consideration).

BTW...all Christians are preterist. We only vary by degree.

Spiritual Jew said:

You told me in your other latest post that you do believe in the future return of Jesus, but you didn't mention that here. Please explain.

Click to expand...

Yes....I should have included that as well...but I didn't realize it needed to be repeated.

mkgal1 said:

We can hold to a certain bias that keeps us from seeing Truth (for instance: believing a certain line is "too extreme" and thus false will cause us to reject something with a knee-jerk response without even giving it consideration).

Click to expand...

That isn't bias, that is a conclusion I've come to after many years of Bible study. I don't appreciate you thinking that I believe what I do just because of bias. That is not true.

BTW...all Christians are preterist. We only vary by degree.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about those who typically see all of the Olivet Discourse and all of Revelation, at least up until the end of Revelation 19, as already being fulfilled.

mkgal1 said:

Yes....I should have included that as well...but I didn't realize it needed to be repeated.

Click to expand...

I didn't know if maybe you concluded that Jesus would return from what you read in one of the creeds and not in scripture itself.

I say that because poster parousia70 told me recently that he doesn't see anything in scripture that is yet to be fulfilled but he sees the return of Christ and the judgment taught in one of the creeds or one of the Catholic writings (can't remember which one offhand), so he believes it because of that rather than anything he sees in scripture.

Spiritual Jew said:

That isn't bias, that is a conclusion I've come to after many years of Bible study. I don't appreciate you thinking that I believe what I do just because of bias. That is not true.

Click to expand...

I didn't make that statement as a personal accusation. I worded it in the general sense. It applies to all of us.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm talking about those who typically see all of the Olivet Discourse and all of Revelation, at least up until the end of Revelation 19, as already being fulfilled.

Click to expand...

Okay....so more advanced preterism than you believe is considered extreme (in your opinion). But all Christians are partial preterists....so it's a false claim to distance oneself from preterism if they are Christian. It's a label that describes us all (much to the contempt of some).

mkgal1 said:

Okay....so more advanced preterism than you believe is considered extreme (in your opinion). But all Christians are partial preterists....so it's a false claim to distance oneself from preterism if they are Christian. It's a label that describes us all (much to the contempt of some).

Click to expand...

I guess we are all partial futurists, too.

I'm not a huge fan of labels, either, but it does help us to identify what we each believe (generally) without having to explain what we believe all the time, which would be tiresome.

So, if someone is called a partial preterist, then most here would understand that the person most likely believes all of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled and most of the book of Revelation as well.

Spiritual Jew said:

It really is, though. If you want to talk about an old covenant age then you need to determine when that age was in effect and when it ended. Scripture is clear that the old covenant was made obsolete at the cross. So, if there was an old covenant age, that is when it ended. The fact that the temple still stood and people foolishly performed the works of the law there after that means nothing in terms of the status of the old covenant at that point.

Click to expand...

The author of Hebrews states the temple system is symbolic for the present time long after the cross.

Hebrews 9:8-9a By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present time).

I think the Jamiesson commentary puts its very well in regards to Hebrews 9:8-11:

"for—"in reference to the existing time." The time of the temple-worship really belonged to the Old Testament, but continued still in Paul's time and that of his Hebrew readers. "The time of reformation" (Heb 9:10) stands in contrast to this, "the existing time"; though, in reality, "the time of reformation," the New Testament time, was now present and existing. So "the age to come," is the phrase applied to the Gospel, because it was present only to believers, and its fulness even to them is still to come. Compare Heb 9:11, "good things to come."

It's what's commonly called in the reformed Amil circles as the "already but not yet".

IMHO, It is similar to the old covenant being inaugurated on mount Sinai, with its fullness realized 40 years later when the Israelites dwelt in the promised land.

Christ inaugurated the new covenant upon his death, 40 years later, believers began being gathered to heaven after the destruction of Jerusalem.

claninja said:

The author of Hebrews states the temple system is symbolic for the present time long after the cross.

Hebrews 9:8-9a By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present time).

I think the Jamiesson commentary puts its very well in regards to Hebrews 9:8-11:

"for—"in reference to the existing time." The time of the temple-worship really belonged to the Old Testament, but continued still in Paul's time and that of his Hebrew readers. "The time of reformation" (Heb 9:10) stands in contrast to this, "the existing time"; though, in reality, "the time of reformation," the New Testament time, was now present and existing. So "the age to come," is the phrase applied to the Gospel, because it was present only to believers, and its fulness even to them is still to come. Compare Heb 9:11, "good things to come."

Click to expand...

I completely disagree with all of that. Instead of repeating myself, I refer you back to what I've already said about that passage in post #202 in this thread.

It's what's commonly called in the reformed Amil circles as the "already but not yet".

Click to expand...

No, that is what it's called in partial preterist Amil circles. Obviously, not all Amils are partial preterists in terms of believing this age was the old covenant age with the age to come being the new covenant age.

Many Amils believe as I do that "this age" that Jesus referred to in Luke 20:34-36 was not an old covenant age but was rather this temporal age when people get married and physically die and the age to come was not a new covenant age but rather the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth where "there will be no more death" (Rev 21:4) and, according to Jesus in Luke 20:34-36, there will also be no more marriage.

IMHO, It is similar to the old covenant being inaugurated on mount Sinai, with its fullness realized 40 years later when the Israelites dwelt in the promised land.

Christ inaugurated the new covenant upon his death, 40 years later, believers began being gathered to heaven after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

The new covenant was fully realized upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If someone wants to say it was fully realized on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), I would be fine with that, also. I find the idea that it wasn't fully realized until 40 years later to be utterly ridiculous. There is nothing you can tell me to convince me otherwise.

There is no description anywhere of believers being gathered to heaven right after the destruction of Jerusalem. You are obviously referring to Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, but in Mark 13:27 it speaks of the elect being gathered "from the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven". That reminds me of what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 which speaks of the dead in Christ being brought with Him and the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up together with them to meet Him "in the air".

Also, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Paul said that all dead believers will be resurrected at the same time and all believers, including the resurrected dead and those who are alive at the time, will be changed at the last trumpet.

If you think that the last trumpet already sounded long ago and that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is already fulfilled, then what about the rest of the dead in Christ? When will they be resurrected and when will everyone else be "changed" and have immortal bodies?

And what about death being swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54 - Isaiah 25:8 - Rev 21:4)? How was that fulfilled in 70 AD?

Spiritual Jew said:

And what about death being swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54 - Isaiah 25:8 - Rev 21:4)? How was that fulfilled in 70 AD?

Click to expand...

That happened in 30 AD when death couldn't hold Jesus in the grave and He resurrected. Notice the grammatical tense here:

Do you recognize the parallel to Christ, here? Daniel was always right to serve the True God - but his experience facing death is what vindicated Daniel (and God's power and faithfulness) in a tangible way:

mkgal1 said:

That happened in 30 AD when death couldn't hold Jesus in the grave and He resurrected. Notice the grammatical tense here:

1 Corinthians 15:57
57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
​

Do you recognize the parallel to Christ, here? Daniel was always right to serve the True God - but his experience facing death is what vindicated Daniel (and God's power and faithfulness) in a tangible way:

Daniel 6:19-23
19At the first light of dawn, the king got up and hurried to the den of lions. 20When he reached the den, he cried out in a voice of anguish, “O Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?”21Then Daniel replied, “O king, may you live forever! 22My God sent His angel and shut the mouths of the lions. They have not hurt me, for I was found innocent in His sight, and I have done no wrong against you, O king.”23The king was overjoyed and gave orders to lift Daniel out of the den, and when Daniel was lifted out of the den, no wounds whatsoever were found on him, because he had trusted in his God.​

Click to expand...

Sorry, I could not disagree more. The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 has to do with the second coming of Christ (see 1 Cor 15:20-28), not the first coming.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul was clearly referring to a future event here. How can you deny that? Notice all the time he said "we shall...". That's clearly future tense. The last trumpet had not yet sounded at that point, so no one but Christ was yet raised from the dead unto immortality at that point.

1 Corinthians 15:54 is the fulfillment of this verse:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

The following will be fulfilled at that time as well:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea...4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The first heaven and first earth are clearly not passed away. If you think so, then please explain in detail how 2 Peter 3:3-13 is already fulfilled.

claninja said:

The author of Hebrews states the temple system is symbolic for the present time long after the cross.

Hebrews 9:8-9a By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present time).

I think the Jamiesson commentary puts its very well in regards to Hebrews 9:8-11:

"for—"in reference to the existing time." The time of the temple-worship really belonged to the Old Testament, but continued still in Paul's time and that of his Hebrew readers. "The time of reformation" (Heb 9:10) stands in contrast to this, "the existing time"; though, in reality, "the time of reformation," the New Testament time, was now present and existing. So "the age to come," is the phrase applied to the Gospel, because it was present only to believers, and its fulness even to them is still to come. Compare Heb 9:11, "good things to come."

It's what's commonly called in the reformed Amil circles as the "already but not yet".

IMHO, It is similar to the old covenant being inaugurated on mount Sinai, with its fullness realized 40 years later when the Israelites dwelt in the promised land.

Christ inaugurated the new covenant upon his death, 40 years later, believers began being gathered to heaven after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

So which disciples and apostles disbelieved causing the church not to enter the "promised land"? It was the hardness of the heart of those coming out of Egypt that caused the 40 years. You are putting the same evil sin (of unbelief) on the immediate followers of Christ?

Spiritual Jew said:

I completely disagree with all of that. Instead of repeating myself, I refer you back to what I've already said about that passage in post #202 in this thread.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you disagree with the author of hebrews, who stated the temple system was symbolic for the "present time". But, as it is, you are free to disagree.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, that is what it's called in partial preterist Amil circles. Obviously, not all Amils are partial preterists in terms of believing this age was the old covenant age with the age to come being the new covenant age.

Click to expand...

Don't rush to hasty conclusions. Please note I stated "reformed". "Reformed" Amil theology is one of "already but not yet", it is the belief that we are living in the overlap of the this age and the age to come.

The Abundance of Blessing in Christ
The Two Ages by Guy Waters

Spiritual Jew said:

Many Amils believe as I do that "this age" that Jesus referred to in Luke 20:34-36 was not an old covenant age but was rather this temporal age when people get married and physically die and the age to come was not a new covenant age but rather the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth where "there will be no more death" (Rev 21:4) and, according to Jesus in Luke 20:34-36, there will also be no more marriage.

Click to expand...

Which is interesting, because you also believe that those that physically die in Christ are raised to heaven and also don't partake in earthly marriage when they get to heaven, nor will they ever died again.

Spiritual Jew said:

The new covenant was fully realized upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If someone wants to say it was fully realized on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), I would be fine with that, also. I find the idea that it wasn't fully realized until 40 years later to be utterly ridiculous. There is nothing you can tell me to convince me otherwise.

Click to expand...

I don't mean to convince you, I'm simply trying to understand your belief system.

Do you believe the future resurrection of believers is part of the new covenant or outside of the new covenant?

Spiritual Jew said:

I find the idea that it wasn't fully realized until 40 years later to be utterly ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Do you find it ridiculous that the old covenant was inaugurated at mount sinai but not fully realized until Israel was present in the promised land 40 years later?

Spiritual Jew said:

There is no description anywhere of believers being gathered to heaven right after the destruction of Jerusalem. You are obviously referring to Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, but in Mark 13:27 it speaks of the elect being gathered "from the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven". That reminds me of what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 which speaks of the dead in Christ being brought with Him and the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up together with them to meet Him "in the air".

Click to expand...

1.) The gathering of the elect at the coming of the son of man occurs immediately after the tribulation of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2.) I disagree with you interpretation that the gathering of the elect from the heavens means the gathering of the dead that already went to heaven. From the uttermost parts of heaven is an expression meaning the whole world, not literally the heavenly abode of God.

"From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Ezekiel 37:9. See also Isaiah 43:5-6. "From one end of heaven, etc." Mark says Mark 13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word "heaven" is used here to denote the "visible" heavens or the sky, meaning that through "the whole world" he would gather them. See Psalm 19:1-7; Deuteronomy 4:32." Barnes commentary

"From the four winds. The four cardinal points, i.e. from every quarter of the earth. Four is the number of the world or the universe. From one end...the other; literally, from the ends of the heavens unto their end, as Deuteronomy 4:32 - a parallel to the preceding clause. From horizon to horizon, though this expression, taken literally, is not extensive enough." Pulpit commentary


Where the earth ends, there the heaven begms: whence it happens, that the mountains and the heavens also sometimes represent each other in parallel passages. Cf. 2 Samuel 22:8 with Psalm 18:8 (7). It corresponds with the Hebrew (extremity). In Deuteronomy 30:4, the LXX. have ἀπʼ ἄκρου τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἕως ἄκρου τοὐ οὐρανοῦ,” from [the one] extremity of the heaven to [the other] extremity of the heaven;” and thus also in Deuteronomy 4:32.Pulpit Commentary Bengals commentary

Again the being gathered from the uttermost parts of heaven doesn't literally mean God's dwelling place.

Deuteronomy 30:4-6 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live

Spiritual Jew said:

Also, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Paul said that all dead believers will be resurrected at the same time and all believers, including the resurrected dead and those who are alive at the time, will be changed at the last trumpet.

If you think that the last trumpet already sounded long ago and that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is already fulfilled, then what about the rest of the dead in Christ? When will they be resurrected and when will everyone else be "changed" and have immortal bodies?

And what about death being swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54 - Isaiah 25:8 - Rev 21:4)? How was that fulfilled in 70 AD?

Click to expand...

So you believe death and hades still have victory over the believer under the new covenant UNTIL the future 2nd coming?

1 corinthians 15:54-55 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. “O death, where is your victory? O hades, where is your sting?”

I believe immediately/in the days after the great tribulation of Jerusalem (66-70ad) and destruction of the temple system, the son of man began gathering believers to heaven (the abode of the Father).

Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

John 14:1-3 Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Spiritual Jew said:

Sorry, I could not disagree more. The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 has to do with the second coming of Christ (see 1 Cor 15:20-28), not the first coming.

Click to expand...

As I posted earlier...I see this as disregarding the power of His resurrection. Are you waiting His future coming for the fulfillment of this as well?

claninja said:

I find it interesting that you disagree with the author of hebrews, who stated the temple system was symbolic for the "present time". But, as it is, you are free to disagree.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your interpretation. I fully agree with every single word that the author of Hebrews wrote.

Which is interesting, because you also believe that those that physically die in Christ are raised to heaven and also don't partake in earthly marriage when they get to heaven, nor will they ever died again.

Click to expand...

That isn't the context in which Jesus was speaking. He was speaking of the time when the future bodily resurrection of the dead occurs. Your denial of a future event of a mass bodily resurrection of all the dead (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15) is your downfall. At that time there will literally be no more death and no more marriage.

I don't mean to convince you, I'm simply trying to understand your belief system.

Do you believe the future resurrection of believers is part of the new covenant or outside of the new covenant?

Click to expand...

It will be the ultimate consummation of the new covenant at which point the eternal new heavens and new earth will be ushered in where we will dwell with God forever (Rev 21:1-4).

Do you find it ridiculous that the old covenant was inaugurated at mount sinai but not fully realized until Israel was present in the promised land 40 years later?

Click to expand...

No. That is a different context. Were people not saved by Christ's shed blood of the new covenant before 70 AD? Of course they were. The new covenant was fully in effect upon the death and resurrection of Christ. For anyone to say otherwise is ridiculous.

1.) The gathering of the elect at the coming of the son of man occurs immediately after the tribulation of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Click to expand...

Right. If you read Luke 21 you should see that "the tribulation of those days" is not referring to what happened in 70 AD but rather is referring to the end of the "times of the Gentiles" which we are still in now.

2.) I disagree with you interpretation that the gathering of the elect from the heavens means the gathering of the dead that already went to heaven. From the uttermost parts of heaven is an expression meaning the whole world, not literally the heavenly abode of God.

"From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Ezekiel 37:9. See also Isaiah 43:5-6. "From one end of heaven, etc." Mark says Mark 13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word "heaven" is used here to denote the "visible" heavens or the sky, meaning that through "the whole world" he would gather them. See Psalm 19:1-7; Deuteronomy 4:32." Barnes commentary

Click to expand...

Why are you quoting a historicist premil to back up your preterist amil doctrine? I'm surprised you would trust what a premil says about anything. I disagree with him and I disagree with you. How do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17?

So you believe death and hades still have victory over the believer under the new covenant UNTIL the future 2nd coming?

1 corinthians 15:54-55 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. “O death, where is your victory? O hades, where is your sting?”

Click to expand...

You know that I don't believe that, so why would you ask it? Believers don't yet have their immortal bodies and people are still dying. So, it can't yet be said that death is swallowed up in victory. Do you know that 1 Cor 15:54 is referencing Isaiah 25:8, as does Revelation 21:4? What is your interpretation of Revelation 21:1-4?

I believe immediately/in the days after the great tribulation of Jerusalem (66-70ad) and destruction of the temple system, the son of man began gathering believers to heaven (the abode of the Father).

Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

John 14:1-3 Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Click to expand...

Why would that have started happening at that time? And, if what you are saying was true then why did Paul write this:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Here, Paul gives the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality. He indicated that Christ was the first and then next in order is "those who belong to Him" which will be "when He comes". Your doctrine does not agree with this. Your order of resurrections unto bodily immortality would be Christ's first, as Paul said, but instead of the next in order being those who belong to Christ when He comes, you have some being resurrected in 70 AD and then more each day from that point on. That is not at all what Paul taught. Instead, he taught that all who belong to Christ will be resurrected on the same day, which will be the day Christ returns which will be "at the last trumpet" (1 Cor 15:50-54).

It is that future day when Christ returns that it can be said the end has come and He hands over the kingdom to God the Father. Do you think He has already handed over the kingdom to the Father and is not reigning still today? Has He already "destroyed all dominion, authority and power" and put all His enemies under His feet? If you look at the world today it sure doesn't look like He has done that yet. Has the last enemy, death, been destroyed (1 Cor 15:26) and swalllowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54) yet? It looks to me like people are still dying, so it doesn't look like that has happened yet.

The bottom line here is that your doctrine has no explanation for what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 and cannot be reconciled with what he wrote there.

Spiritual Jew said:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul was clearly referring to a future event here. How can you deny that? Notice all the time he said "we shall...". That's clearly future tense. The last trumpet had not yet sounded at that point, so no one but Christ was yet raised from the dead unto immortality at that point.

Click to expand...

The earlier argument was that all authority and power has been given to Jesus upon His resurrection and ascension (and I had agreed). But then I was asked this question, when I stated there was still more to be fulfilled in Matthew 24 and Daniel 7 even after His ascension:

........which seems to contradict the reason to question my statement that there were more events left to fulfill after His ascension (because neither argument is that ALL of Matthew 24 was fulfilled by His ascension). The difference is that I have the events being fulfilled according to Jesus's statements ....within 40 years to His statement, parallel to Isaiah's prophetic warning 40 years prior to the first destruction of the previous temple....and the opposing argument is that the remainder of Matthew24 is left unfulfilled. So.....what about the question of His power and authority? Isaiah had prophesied this and 40 years later, the first Temple was destroyed:

mkgal1 said:

As I posted earlier...I see this as disregarding the power of His resurrection. Are you waiting His future coming for the fulfillment of this as well?

John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”​

Click to expand...

No, that is referring to the fact that even though our bodies will die, our souls and spirits will never die and they go to be with Christ in heaven when we die. As Paul taught, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8).

If you think I disregard the power of His resurrection then you truly have no understanding of what I believe. His resurrection means everything to me. It is the reason I have the hope of eternal life and it is the reason all people have the opportunity for eternal life.