How can We Know if We Know Him?
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Gary K
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Works are not for rewards. Works are the product of love for God in the heart. Jesus said that whoever is forgiven much loves much. He told that to the Pharisee Simon when Simon was questioning in his heart how Jesus could be a prophet and not know who and what Mary was. Simon had not even provided the polite services a Jewish host was to provide for his guest to Jesus:the facilities and items used to clean up. Mary was providing a very expensive way of cleaning Jesus feet. The contrast is extreme. Tell me who loved Jesus more, Simon or Mary?
Jesus said, if ye love me keep my commandments. He also said that if we do not take up our cross and follow Him we are not worthy of Him.
We cannot work our way to heaven for the law cannot save us. But Jesus can and does save us, and He saves us for the purpose of good works that His Father preordained that we should do. That's the difference. The works are mandatory for us for we are created in Jesus Christ to do good works. To not do them is to deny Jesus.
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The point I was trying to make was that, there is no evidence of this where circumcision is concerned. Peter especially,could not have done this because of his experience with Cornelius, As I wrote:
"Also Peter is aware from the incident with Cornelius that circumcision is not a requirement for salvation.(Acts 11:1-8)"
And for the others who were considered, "pillars", they could not have agreed to give Paul the right hand of fellowship if the circumcision issue was not settled.(Acts 15:1-25) Again as I wrote:
"Paul also received confirmation that he received the same message as those who were apostles before him.(Galatians 2:1-10)"
Notice it was a sect of the Pharisees which was pushing the circumcision issue and not the apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church.(Acts 15:5)
This is a misunderstanding of what Paul preached which should be clear even from the results of the Acts 15 conference. Notice the instructions given to the Gentiles were from the law. This implies that some part of the law was still relevant at this time but circumcision was not. Other statements made by Paul also show the relevance of the law to the Christian.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The fact(as I showed) that Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, together, as he brought the gospel message shows it was one message for all and not two separate messages as you claim.
Again as I wrote:
"This was confirmed by the actions of Paul who preached to both Jews and Gentiles as he brought the message of salvation.(Acts 20:18-21;13:39-46;14:1-4;18:1-6)"
Again it was not an agreement about two different gospel messages which caused this not to happen, but it was the principle expounded in I Corinthians 9:19-23.Both Paul and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem refrained from condemning anyone as the need to preach the gospel to Israel,was the priority at this time. The condemnation would come latter as the various sects rejected the full counsel of God. As I wrote:
"There was in fact a transition but not one of two different gospels,it was that of the understanding of the people of God as to the requirements of salvation.Many still were not understanding the changes Jesus' death brought as was predicted by the prophets and expounded by Paul in Hebrews 7-10."
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Gary K
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To give the answer the question in the title of this thread is to summarize the scriptures I have quoted in this thread.
How can we know we are abiding in Christ? If our entire beings are focused on Jesus, and He has created within us both the desire and ability to obey Him. This is what Paul is referring to when he says, For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
We are abiding in Christ when our hearts tell us to obey God, and by faith we acknowledge that we cannot truly obey on our own, but that God can create the change in our hearts that enables us to obey. Like John says, whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.
Jesus said:
The question to us is, do we believe Jesus? If we do nothing is impossible for us for all things are possible to him who believes. Like Jesus also said, according to your faith be it unto you. And remember Jesus response to the prayer of the father of the demon possessed boy. Lord I believe. Help thou mine unbelief. Jesus answered that request with a very large yes. He helped that father believe so his son would be healed. He will give the very same response to the same prayer from us.
How can we know we are abiding in Christ? If our entire beings are focused on Jesus, and He has created within us both the desire and ability to obey Him. This is what Paul is referring to when he says, For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
We are abiding in Christ when our hearts tell us to obey God, and by faith we acknowledge that we cannot truly obey on our own, but that God can create the change in our hearts that enables us to obey. Like John says, whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.
Jesus said:
The question to us is, do we believe Jesus? If we do nothing is impossible for us for all things are possible to him who believes. Like Jesus also said, according to your faith be it unto you. And remember Jesus response to the prayer of the father of the demon possessed boy. Lord I believe. Help thou mine unbelief. Jesus answered that request with a very large yes. He helped that father believe so his son would be healed. He will give the very same response to the same prayer from us.
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Guojing
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The evidence was Acts 21:20-25, have you read it? Jews who believed continued to circumcise their kids and be zealous of all the Law of Moses.
The conclusion in Acts 15 was that gentiles who believed do not need to be circumcised. so the Cornelius incident was an example of that.
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The following study may help in removing the misunderstanding some may have about Paul and James and how to reconcile what they wrote:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only."[James 2:24;I John 3:7]
"He shall see the travail of his soul,and shall be satisfied:by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many,for he shall bear their iniquities." [Isaiah 53:11]
"Let the wicked forsake his way,and the unrighteous man his thoughts:And let him return unto the Lord,and he will have mercy upon him;and to our God for he will abundantly pardon."[Isaiah 55:7]
The statements above made by the apostles Paul and James appear to contradict each other and may be a cause of confusion among those who seek to understand the word of God. Many persons may be tempted to accept one and reject the other.Or claim James is for one dispensation while Paul speaks to another.
A proper search of the scriptures, however, will show that both can be reconciled and the words of Isaiah stated above,also sheds some light on this.Many, instead of reconciling both passages tend to accept one and teach that we are saved by grace and are made righteous by Jesus' atoning action and hence those who try to live righteous or keep God's commandments, are trying to be righteous by themselves and hence,are fallen from grace.(especially those who use the law as a guide to know sin.)
Nothing could be further from the truth and the passages in Isaiah, stated above, show that those who are to benefit from God's pardon(grace) must also forsake their wicked ways and unrighteous thoughts and conform to God's ways.
The difference in the style of writing of both apostles and the difference in the audience they are writing to, may be a cause of the apparent contradiction. If, however, the reader should consider all of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other epistles,before coming to a conclusion, they would be able to see that both he and James concur on the matter but that they discuss the topic in different ways.
It is to be noted that the apostle Peter noticed that Paul's style of writing is not easily understood and could cause many to be in error. Many pastors and teachers of God's word fail to recognize this and hence, lead their flock into error and keep them there by avoiding scriptures which would illuminate their errors.[II Peter 3:15-17;II Timothy 2:15;Proverbs 14:15;Proverbs 2:1-6]
Paul says justification is by faith and faith alone.[Romans 3:23-28;Galatians 2:16;Ephesians 2:8,9] But he also asks, if, after receiving this pardon, should we continue in sin.[Romans 6:1,2] He says no and hence shows there is another part to justification which James speaks of in his statement above and which Paul alludes to in other passages.[Romans 2:13]
The part which man has no control of and can do nothing to gain may be called redemption or reconciliation( Romans 3:24;Ephesians 1:7;Colossians 1:14;Hebrews 9:12,15;Romans 5:10;II Corinthians 5:18-20) and the second area is that which man will do by the power which God has given him, by his submitting to the will of God and living a righteous and holy life. Hence whereas Paul is making clear to the readers at Rome that the reason we have the opportunity to gain eternal life is not by our own doing,he also says, when we have accepted this opportunity by accepting baptism, we are not expected to continue to live in sin, but we must live in a manner which is acceptable to God who gives us the power to do this.
James in his letter may have been speaking to a more informed audience and hence ,he links both parts of the justification process, without highlighting the act performed by Jesus which motivates and gives the faith needed to continue in good works.
The following scriptures show the way in which the justification process may be divided.
REDEMPTION /AFTER REDEMPTION
Romans 3:23-26./ Romans 6:20-22.
Romans 5:9. /Romans 6:1-4,6,15.
Ephesians 2:8,9./ Ephesians 2:10;4:22-24.
Titus 3:7. /Titus 3:8.
Hebrews 9:11-15./ Hebrews 10:22-29.
Galatians 2:16./ Galatians 5:6,16,19-23.
redemption - (629,Strong' s)apolutrosis, from a comp. of 575 and 3083;(the act)ransom in full.ie.(fig. ) riddance,or (spec.)Chr. salvation:
Also: (3085,Strong' s)lutrosis, from 3084;a ransoming(fig. ):
James however, speaks of the whole process as one and is very simple in his explanation of what should happen to the redeemed person.[James 2:1,14-26;1: 1-3,12] He does not describe the actions of Jesus in the justification process in the detail that Paul does but is mainly concerned with the fruits of the process. Persons reading parts of Paul's letter may believe that just by having faith they are righteous and may gain eternal life, without forsaking sin also. James' method of describing the process ensures that no one could make this error with his letter and there are many other scriptures which support this method. Whereas James makes his point quickly, Paul only gets to the "meat" of the matter in chapter 12 of his letter to the Romans.[Romans 3:5-8;II Peter 3:15-17;Romans 12:1-21;13:8- 10,14;Hebrews 11:1-40;Galatians 5:6;I Corinthians 7:19;I John 5:2,3]
Jesus also was very clear on the subject as was the apostle John.[Matthew 7:21-27;19:16- 30;John 6:35-40;7:16; 8:31 - 45;11:25,26; 12:47-50; I John 1:5-10;2:1-6; 3:1-10;Revelatio n 14:12]
In using Abraham as the example for all to follow, the dual nature of the justification process is obvious.
Abraham was called by God to leave his father's house and he obeyed.[Genesis 12:1-4;Hebrews 11:8]
His faith caused him to obey God.[James 2:21-23]
He was declared righteous as God cleared him of any sin he had committed because he believed God.[Romans 4:1-8;Genesis 15:6]
When this relationship was sealed Abraham was told to:
"...walk before me and be thou perfect."[Genesis 17:1]
Hence God called him, redeemed him and told him to obey his laws, and he received the institution of circumcision as a seal of this agreement or covenant.[Genesis 17:3-14;James 2:14-20;Ephesians 2:8-10;Titus 3:4-8]
Did Abraham keep the laws of God after being redeemed, justified or cleared of sin?
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,and kept my charge,my commandments, my statutes,and my laws."[Genesis 26:5]
Jesus said the children of Abraham would follow his example.[John 8:39;Galatians 3:28,29]
Hence Abraham's faith was first aknowledged but continued to be tested and was proven because he obeyed God.[Genesis 22:1-14;Hebrews 11:8-10,17]
As it was with Abraham and others, it is our works which will show our faith or lack of it.[Romans 4:19-22;9:30- 33;11:20- 22;Hebrews 3:14-19;4:1- 16;Numbers 14:1-35;James 2:22,23;1:2- 4,12;Proverbs 28:13;21:21]
In conclusion,we cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13;Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32;Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]
After being redeemed,however, in order to attain the promise of eternal life,which was made possible by the death of Jesus,we must forsake sin and live according to God's laws.[I Peter 1:9-23;Romans 6:1-14;I Corinthians 6:9-11;Titus 3:8;Romans 8:1-8,13;Ezekiel 36:26,27;I Peter 4:1-4;Romans 7;7;3:20b;I John 3:4;I Timothy 1:8;Jeremiah 31:33,34;Exodus 24:12;Hebrews 8:8-13; II Corinthians 3:1-3;Revelation 22:14]
This is how the law justifies. As Paul said:
Romans 2:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
If we continue in sin after accepting this gift of grace,we are in danger of facing the wrath of God,however, we still have an advocate who intercedes on our behalf if we have strayed from the path of righteousness. [Hebrews 7:22-25;10:26- 29,38,39; 12:1-17;I John 2:1,2;Psalm 32:1-5,8,10]
Those who fail to do those works pleasing unto God are said to be:
"They profess that they know God;but in works they deny him,being abominable,and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]
We should rather be found among those described below:
"Little children,let no man decieve you:he that doeth righteousness, is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,we should live soberly,righteously ,and godly,in this present world.....who gave himself for us,that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works."[Titus 2:11-14]
safswan.
Justification
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."[Romans 3:28;Galatians 2:16]
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only."[James 2:24;I John 3:7]
"He shall see the travail of his soul,and shall be satisfied:by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many,for he shall bear their iniquities." [Isaiah 53:11]
"Let the wicked forsake his way,and the unrighteous man his thoughts:And let him return unto the Lord,and he will have mercy upon him;and to our God for he will abundantly pardon."[Isaiah 55:7]
The statements above made by the apostles Paul and James appear to contradict each other and may be a cause of confusion among those who seek to understand the word of God. Many persons may be tempted to accept one and reject the other.Or claim James is for one dispensation while Paul speaks to another.
A proper search of the scriptures, however, will show that both can be reconciled and the words of Isaiah stated above,also sheds some light on this.Many, instead of reconciling both passages tend to accept one and teach that we are saved by grace and are made righteous by Jesus' atoning action and hence those who try to live righteous or keep God's commandments, are trying to be righteous by themselves and hence,are fallen from grace.(especially those who use the law as a guide to know sin.)
Nothing could be further from the truth and the passages in Isaiah, stated above, show that those who are to benefit from God's pardon(grace) must also forsake their wicked ways and unrighteous thoughts and conform to God's ways.
The difference in the style of writing of both apostles and the difference in the audience they are writing to, may be a cause of the apparent contradiction. If, however, the reader should consider all of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other epistles,before coming to a conclusion, they would be able to see that both he and James concur on the matter but that they discuss the topic in different ways.
It is to be noted that the apostle Peter noticed that Paul's style of writing is not easily understood and could cause many to be in error. Many pastors and teachers of God's word fail to recognize this and hence, lead their flock into error and keep them there by avoiding scriptures which would illuminate their errors.[II Peter 3:15-17;II Timothy 2:15;Proverbs 14:15;Proverbs 2:1-6]
Paul says justification is by faith and faith alone.[Romans 3:23-28;Galatians 2:16;Ephesians 2:8,9] But he also asks, if, after receiving this pardon, should we continue in sin.[Romans 6:1,2] He says no and hence shows there is another part to justification which James speaks of in his statement above and which Paul alludes to in other passages.[Romans 2:13]
The part which man has no control of and can do nothing to gain may be called redemption or reconciliation( Romans 3:24;Ephesians 1:7;Colossians 1:14;Hebrews 9:12,15;Romans 5:10;II Corinthians 5:18-20) and the second area is that which man will do by the power which God has given him, by his submitting to the will of God and living a righteous and holy life. Hence whereas Paul is making clear to the readers at Rome that the reason we have the opportunity to gain eternal life is not by our own doing,he also says, when we have accepted this opportunity by accepting baptism, we are not expected to continue to live in sin, but we must live in a manner which is acceptable to God who gives us the power to do this.
James in his letter may have been speaking to a more informed audience and hence ,he links both parts of the justification process, without highlighting the act performed by Jesus which motivates and gives the faith needed to continue in good works.
The following scriptures show the way in which the justification process may be divided.
REDEMPTION /AFTER REDEMPTION
Romans 3:23-26./ Romans 6:20-22.
Romans 5:9. /Romans 6:1-4,6,15.
Ephesians 2:8,9./ Ephesians 2:10;4:22-24.
Titus 3:7. /Titus 3:8.
Hebrews 9:11-15./ Hebrews 10:22-29.
Galatians 2:16./ Galatians 5:6,16,19-23.
redemption - (629,Strong' s)apolutrosis, from a comp. of 575 and 3083;(the act)ransom in full.ie.(fig. ) riddance,or (spec.)Chr. salvation:
Also: (3085,Strong' s)lutrosis, from 3084;a ransoming(fig. ):
James however, speaks of the whole process as one and is very simple in his explanation of what should happen to the redeemed person.[James 2:1,14-26;1: 1-3,12] He does not describe the actions of Jesus in the justification process in the detail that Paul does but is mainly concerned with the fruits of the process. Persons reading parts of Paul's letter may believe that just by having faith they are righteous and may gain eternal life, without forsaking sin also. James' method of describing the process ensures that no one could make this error with his letter and there are many other scriptures which support this method. Whereas James makes his point quickly, Paul only gets to the "meat" of the matter in chapter 12 of his letter to the Romans.[Romans 3:5-8;II Peter 3:15-17;Romans 12:1-21;13:8- 10,14;Hebrews 11:1-40;Galatians 5:6;I Corinthians 7:19;I John 5:2,3]
Jesus also was very clear on the subject as was the apostle John.[Matthew 7:21-27;19:16- 30;John 6:35-40;7:16; 8:31 - 45;11:25,26; 12:47-50; I John 1:5-10;2:1-6; 3:1-10;Revelatio n 14:12]
In using Abraham as the example for all to follow, the dual nature of the justification process is obvious.
Abraham was called by God to leave his father's house and he obeyed.[Genesis 12:1-4;Hebrews 11:8]
His faith caused him to obey God.[James 2:21-23]
He was declared righteous as God cleared him of any sin he had committed because he believed God.[Romans 4:1-8;Genesis 15:6]
When this relationship was sealed Abraham was told to:
"...walk before me and be thou perfect."[Genesis 17:1]
Hence God called him, redeemed him and told him to obey his laws, and he received the institution of circumcision as a seal of this agreement or covenant.[Genesis 17:3-14;James 2:14-20;Ephesians 2:8-10;Titus 3:4-8]
Did Abraham keep the laws of God after being redeemed, justified or cleared of sin?
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,and kept my charge,my commandments, my statutes,and my laws."[Genesis 26:5]
Jesus said the children of Abraham would follow his example.[John 8:39;Galatians 3:28,29]
Hence Abraham's faith was first aknowledged but continued to be tested and was proven because he obeyed God.[Genesis 22:1-14;Hebrews 11:8-10,17]
As it was with Abraham and others, it is our works which will show our faith or lack of it.[Romans 4:19-22;9:30- 33;11:20- 22;Hebrews 3:14-19;4:1- 16;Numbers 14:1-35;James 2:22,23;1:2- 4,12;Proverbs 28:13;21:21]
In conclusion,we cannot free ourselves from the curse of the law.Only the death of one who was just could do this great work of reconciliation with God.[Deuteronomy 11:26-29;27: 11-26;28: 15-19;Galatians 3:13;Hebrews 9:15;10:1-10; I Peter 1:18-21;2:24, 25;Romans 3:22,23.]
For neither the blood of bulls and goats(works of the law) nor our good works(works of righteousness) could redeem us from the consequences of sin.[Romans 3:20;Romans 6:23;Ezekiel 20:24,25;Romans 9:31,32;Titus 3:5;Hebrews 10:1-14;Galatians 2:16;3:19,24- 26]
After being redeemed,however, in order to attain the promise of eternal life,which was made possible by the death of Jesus,we must forsake sin and live according to God's laws.[I Peter 1:9-23;Romans 6:1-14;I Corinthians 6:9-11;Titus 3:8;Romans 8:1-8,13;Ezekiel 36:26,27;I Peter 4:1-4;Romans 7;7;3:20b;I John 3:4;I Timothy 1:8;Jeremiah 31:33,34;Exodus 24:12;Hebrews 8:8-13; II Corinthians 3:1-3;Revelation 22:14]
This is how the law justifies. As Paul said:
Romans 2:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
If we continue in sin after accepting this gift of grace,we are in danger of facing the wrath of God,however, we still have an advocate who intercedes on our behalf if we have strayed from the path of righteousness. [Hebrews 7:22-25;10:26- 29,38,39; 12:1-17;I John 2:1,2;Psalm 32:1-5,8,10]
Those who fail to do those works pleasing unto God are said to be:
"They profess that they know God;but in works they deny him,being abominable,and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."[ Titus 1:16]
We should rather be found among those described below:
"Little children,let no man decieve you:he that doeth righteousness, is righteous even as he is righteous."[ I John 3:7]
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,we should live soberly,righteously ,and godly,in this present world.....who gave himself for us,that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works."[Titus 2:11-14]
safswan.
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The point I was trying to make was that, there is no evidence of this where circumcision is concerned. Peter especially,could not have done this because of his experience with Cornelius, As I wrote:
"Also Peter is aware from the incident with Cornelius that circumcision is not a requirement for salvation.(Acts 11:1-8)"
And for the others who were considered, "pillars", they could not have agreed to give Paul the right hand of fellowship if the circumcision issue was not settled.(Acts 15:1-25) Again as I wrote:
"Paul also received confirmation that he received the same message as those who were apostles before him.(Galatians 2:1-10)"
Notice it was a sect of the Pharisees which was pushing the circumcision issue and not the apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church.(Acts 15:5)
The fact(as I showed) that Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, together, as he brought the gospel message shows it was one message for all and not two separate messages as you claim.
Again as I wrote:
"This was confirmed by the actions of Paul who preached to both Jews and Gentiles as he brought the message of salvation.(Acts 20:18-21;13:39-46;14:1-4;18:1-6)"
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Guojing
Well-Known Member
Wait you are saying you believe that James, Peter and John taught the same as Paul regarding circumcision, aka Galatians 5:2, when they preached to the Jews.
And yet, in Acts 21:20-25, James and the elders still told Paul to do things for the Law, that will prove to the Jews, that he is still keeping the Law as the rest of the Jews are?
Isn't this the textbook example of hypocrisy?
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I Corinthians 3,is a passage used by proponents to support the, "Once saved always saved", doctrine.They claim it supports the teaching that whereas lack of good works or the presence of sin will result in a loss of rewards these cannot affect the salvation of a saint.Below is an excerpt of a discussion with a proponent of the doctrine and the explanation of the works of I Corinthians 3.
J. F. wrote: "We know that saved or unsaved, we will all give an account to the Lord - the saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ (BEMA judgment) and the unsaved at the Great White Throne judgment. At those judgments our works will be tried to see if they are of any value - not unto salvation but unto reward (Bema Judgment) or condemnation (Great White Throne) 1 Cor 3:13-15."
My response was:
You are taking this passage out of context.The context is Paul's and others labour for the Lord.He spoke of the different ways in which they all worked to build the "building" of God.
"For we are labourers together with God:ye are God's husbandry,ye are God's building."(I Corinthians 3:9)
It is the make up of the building which is going to be tried i.e. the gold,silver,hay etc. This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others.(See also II Timothy 2:19-21)
If the make up of the building abides in the time of being tried by fire, then the labourer will recieve a reward because of this.If however it does not, he will not receive a reward but this will not affect his salvation.(I Corinthians 3:12-15)
The work being referred to here is their work in building God's temple.(I Corinthians 3:16,17) ]
It is about Paul's and other's work in building God's building.It is about those who by their work, came to the Lord.(ICorinthians 3:5,6) He called himself a masterbuilder and others build.(I Corinthians 3:10-12)
If you object to my saying;"This represents the persons/assemblies brought to the Lord by Paul and others." Then you should also object to Paul saying:"Who then is Paul,and who is Apolos,but ministers by whom ye believed,even as the Lord gave to every man."(I Corinthians 3:5)
And:"...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."(ICorinthians 4:15)
It is not efforts which will be tried,but the make-up of the building,ie. the work produced.(I Corinthians 3:12-15).
This in fact,rather than supporting the OSAS doctrine,is showing that some of those brought to the Lord(the saved) by Paul etc. are wood,hay and stubble and hence will not survive the fire when they are tried.Paul etc. will suffer a loss where those he brought to the Lord are concerned but this will not affect Paul's salvation if he endures the fire himself.
Hope this will help in understanding this passage.
safswan.
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No.That is why in one instance Paul circumcised Timothy but did not circumcise Titus.Read the I Corinthians 9 passage again and understand the principle:
1Corinthians 9:19
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Corinthians 9:23
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
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GDL
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About time someone set this straight here! I've heard seasoned aggressive teachers in one camp teach this incorrectly for way too long. Then that camp's students keep arguing the same error.
Thanks for you input.
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The principle applies just the same. And if James et al are to be charged with hypocrisy then Paul would be guilty of the same as he went along with the suggested plan of action. Again remember these facts:
""Also Peter is aware from the incident with Cornelius that circumcision is not a requirement for salvation.(Acts 11:1-8)"
And for the others who were considered, "pillars", they could not have agreed to give Paul the right hand of fellowship if the circumcision issue was not settled.(Acts 15:1-25) Again as I wrote:
"Paul also received confirmation that he received the same message as those who were apostles before him.(Galatians 2:1-10)"
Notice it was a sect of the Pharisees which was pushing the circumcision issue and not the apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church.(Acts 15:5)
The fact(as I showed) that Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, together, as he brought the gospel message shows it was one message for all and not two separate messages as you claim.
Again as I wrote:
"This was confirmed by the actions of Paul who preached to both Jews and Gentiles as he brought the message of salvation.(Acts 20:18-21;13:39-46;14:1-4;18:1-6)""
The proper understanding of all Paul wrote will show he is in perfect agreement with James in James 2 and that he too regards the law as being relevant in the life of the Christian. See the study on justification,post #147(How can We Know if We Know Him?)
Also as I wrote:
"Notice the instructions given to the Gentiles were from the law. This implies that some part of the law was still relevant at this time but circumcision was not. Other statements made by Paul also show the relevance of the law to the Christian.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Again,the problem is one of an incomplete understanding and application of all the changes the death of Jesus brought not the existence of different gospels for different peoples.
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Guojing
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James point is that the Law of Moses must be kept by Jews who believed. He only exempted the gentiles who believed from the Law (Acts 21:25). James was not being hypocritical when he suggested Paul follow the Law in that instance in Acts 21, since Paul is a Jew.
You have the mistaken view that Acts 15 also excused Jews from following the Law. Peter tried to suggest that in Acts 15:11 but James did not go along with that when he proclaimed his final judgement in Acts 15 :19.
Since James, not Peter, is the one in charge of the Jerusalem HQ, what he said was the final conclusion.
Once you understood that, the idea that Peter was afraid of the "Men from James" in the second half of Galatians 2 will start to make sense.
If what Peter stated in Acts 15:11 was the one that James agreed on, there would have been no reason for him to be afraid of them.
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You wrote:
“Wait you are saying you believe that James, Peter and John taught the same as Paul regarding circumcision, aka Galatians 5:2, when they preached to the Jews.
And yet, in Acts 21:20-25, James and the elders still told Paul to do things for the Law, that will prove to the Jews, that he is still keeping the Law as the rest of the Jews are?
Isn't this the textbook example of hypocrisy?”
My response:
"No.That is why in one instance Paul circumcised Timothy but did not circumcise Titus.Read the I Corinthians 9 passage again and understand the principle:”
Your response:
“I am talking about James in Acts 21, I am not talking about Paul.”
Hence my statement:
“The principle applies just the same. And if James et al are to be charged with hypocrisy then Paul would be guilty of the same as he went along with the suggested plan of action. Again remember these facts:”
But now you say:
“James point is that the Law of Moses must be kept by Jews who believed. He only exempted the gentiles who believed from the Law (Acts 21:25). James was not being hypocritical when he suggested Paul follow the Law in that instance in Acts 21, since Paul is a Jew.”
Remember you are the one who suggested James was being hypocritical as is seen from your statement above.I have shown that the I Corinthians 9 principle would apply similarly to James et al,since they were in agreement with Paul and now you are shifting the goal post or simply making it up as you go along.
Again you should really take time out look at the facts which make your theory invalid.You have ignored these facts which have been presented to you before.
1)Peter is aware from the incident with Cornelius that circumcision is not a requirement for salvation.(Acts 11:1-8)"
2)For the others who were considered, "pillars", they could not have agreed to give Paul the right hand of fellowship if the circumcision issue was not settled.(Acts 15:1-25)
3)Paul also received confirmation that he received the same message as those who were apostles before him.(Galatians 2:1-10)
4)It was a sect of the Pharisees which was pushing the circumcision issue and not the apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church.(Acts 15:5))
These most likely were the ones who came down from James of whom Peter was afraid. The actions of Peter cannot negate what he believed or agreed to,but simply show his human frailty in carrying out what was right.
5)Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, together, as he brought the gospel message and this shows it was one message for all and not two separate messages as you claim.(Acts 20:18-21;13:39-46;14:1-4;18:1-6)
I could not have any mistaken view that:
“..that Acts 15 also excused Jews from following the Law.”
Remember I wrote:
“This is a misunderstanding of what Paul preached which should be clear even from the results of the Acts 15 conference. Notice the instructions given to the Gentiles were from the law. This implies that some part of the law was still relevant at this time but circumcision was not. Other statements made by Paul also show the relevance of the law to the Christian.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Hence the law would still have some relevance to all Christians.
The pronouncements of Acts 15:11 and Acts 15:19 in no way contradict each other:
Remember the contention was:
Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful
to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Peter denied that this was necessary:
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and
brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by
my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he
did unto us;
Acts 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our
fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
James clearly supports him and so circumcision and the total adherence to the law was denied.
Acts 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned
to God:
Acts 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,
and from things strangled, and from blood.
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