The Rapture theory is true?

Timtofly · Nov 18, 2020

Freedm said:
Where does it say that the old covenant is in effect until the last day?

The old covenant was death in Abraham's bosom. Those cannot be resurrected under the Law until the last day. That is your claim not mine. Do you not see sin and death covered by the Old Covenant until the last day? It ended and the resurrection of those under it happened on the last day, at the Cross. If you say one ended, you have to claim it was the last day for both. If you say one could not end, then both are still waiting for the last day. Your dogmatic last day already happened on the Cross because of Jesus Christ.

Freedm · Nov 20, 2020

Timtofly said:
The old covenant was death in Abraham's bosom. Those cannot be resurrected under the Law until the last day. That is your claim not mine. Do you not see sin and death covered by the Old Covenant until the last day? It ended and the resurrection of those under it happened on the last day, at the Cross. If you say one ended, you have to claim it was the last day for both. If you say one could not end, then both are still waiting for the last day. Your dogmatic last day already happened on the Cross because of Jesus Christ.

You didn't answer my question, only told me a story in your own words. Please give me some words from scripture that tell the same story.

Timtofly · Nov 20, 2020

Freedm said:
You didn't answer my question, only told me a story in your own words. Please give me some words from scripture that tell the same story.

Read the book of Matthew. Then read Luke. We don't answer questions around here much. Not sure why people even ask them. Besides I never made a claim about the Old Covenant ending or not ending, you did.

Davy · Nov 21, 2020

The old covenant is not the same thing as The Old Testament Books of The Bible. There still is much prophesy for the end of this world, and even for the future after Christ's return, written of in The Old Testament prophets. Even Genesis 49 involves prophesies Jacob gave to his twelve sons for the last days of this world.

Those who try to tell us The Old Testament Books are all history are trying to corner Christian doctrine to their seminary systems of men, and do the works Jesus rebuked the deeds of the Nicolaitans for.

Freedm · Nov 22, 2020

Timtofly said:
Read the book of Matthew. Then read Luke. We don't answer questions around here much. Not sure why people even ask them. Besides I never made a claim about the Old Covenant ending or not ending, you did.

Just to be clear; I never mentioned the old covenant. I mentioned the last day, which has nothing to do with the old covenant, as far as I'm aware. You made that link when you said "So the old covenant is still in full effect? It cannot end until the very last day." without any scriptural support for that statement.

And the fact that you're telling me to basically read the Bible to find my answers tells me that you can't point me to any scripture to support your position. If you can't support your position but you believe it anyway, why don't you just say that? There's nothing wrong with speculating based on what we know. We all do that, and in fact, sometimes speculation and the investigation it spawns leads us to fascinating truths we would otherwise not have found, but please don't pretend that the Bible says what it does not.

You made the claim that "the last day" refers to the last day of the old covenant, and that's fine. You can make that claim all you want, and you can believe it, and you can speculate and postulate. There's nothing wrong with that, unless clear scripture contradicts you. However, where you really lost me was when you claimed that the scriptures actually support your position because I haven't seen those scriptures, nor have you been able to help me find them, and until you do your position remains mere speculation and, based on the verses I posted, even less than that.

Davy · Nov 22, 2020

Freedm said:
Where does it say that the old covenant is in effect until the last day?

Just to let you know in case you haven't figured it out yet, there are those here that have no intention of keeping to the obvious Scripture about Christ's coming and the resurrection to occur on the "last day" of this present world. They are taught lies against that clear timing given in Scriptures, and they are also taught to lie against that in Scripture, holding to their doctrines of men they learned from charlatans who don't keep The Word of God. Thus they are also taught by their systems of men to LIE however needed in order to push those doctrines of men. Many of them don't come to Christian forums to agree with God's written Word, they come to try and destroy it.

Freedm · Nov 22, 2020

Davy said:
Just to let you know in case you haven't figured it out yet, there are those here that have no intention of keeping to the obvious Scripture about Christ's coming and the resurrection to occur on the "last day" of this present world. They are taught lies against that clear timing given in Scriptures, and they are also taught to lie against that in Scripture, holding to their doctrines of men they learned from charlatans who don't keep The Word of God. Thus they are also taught by their systems of men to LIE however needed in order to push those doctrines of men. Many of them don't come to Christian forums to agree with God's written Word, they come to try and destroy it.

Are you saying that these people are not legitimately confused, but rather are purposely misleading others?

Timtofly · Nov 22, 2020

Freedm said:
However, where you really lost me was when you claimed that the scriptures actually support your position because I haven't seen those scriptures, nor have you been able to help me find them, and until you do your position remains mere speculation and, based on the verses I posted, even less than that.

Except those verses are referring to the Cross as the last day. That is where we differ. The Cross fulfilled, settled, and was the last day.

Freedm · Nov 23, 2020

Timtofly said:
Except those verses are referring to the Cross as the last day. That is where we differ. The Cross fulfilled, settled, and was the last day.

o.k. so you believe "the last day" refers to the cross, which is fine, but let's at least agree that there is no clear scripture anywhere that says that.

FredVB · Nov 30, 2020

Timtofly said:
So the rapture teaches us to be foolish virgins unprepared for the event of the rapture? Are the wise virgins going to be left behind, and the foolish virgins leave in the rapture? The foolish were not prepared so they were taken away. The wise were prepared, but being wise and looking for the Rapture was stupid and escapism? Is this all reverse psychology?

How do you get that the foolish virgins in the parable Jesus gave is referring to believers, even any of them? These are referring to people not prepared with the Holy Spirit in them. Not having just the right eschatological view is not the issue there, with just understanding at least that Jesus really will return, he said so. But the rapture support from many is often assuming there is nothing important in the world to address as that rapture will take believers out next, so they won't change anything at all for responsible living. That is very wrong, the Bible speaks for all of us living responsibly, we should know to do that anyway, a coming rapture is not for us to dismiss any of that, and is just wrong to assume it will be the next thing and nothing important for us to address would come ahead of that. Believers suffered all sorts of things through history, they still do in many places, even if not right where you are. The only basis for believers being taken out which God does show in revelation is the coming judgment on those in the world for unrepented wickedness and destructiveness here, that the redeemed with their repentance are not subject to in Christ who bore it all for them. Mystery Babylon will fall, people of God must not simply remain with it, I believe it can come before the rapture of believers from this world, it will not be God's judgment yet coming, when it is resulting from the process of what is happening all along, the signs show it. The one who is Antichrist will come to power in this with the last attempt for civilization with what remains, with the deception on people to follow him for that, without God.

Davy · Nov 30, 2020

FredVB said:
How do you get that the foolish virgins in the parable Jesus gave is referring to believers, even any of them? These are referring to people not prepared with the Holy Spirit in them.

No, the five foolish virgins are shown they had 'some' of the OIL (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps. When it came time when they really needed it, to trim up the flame of their lamps, their OIL ran out.

That makes the five foolish virgins representative of those who are believers, but fall away in the last hour (just before midnight, represented by the Bridegroom's coming).

Did you recognize what Jesus said to His disciples that fell asleep just before He was delivered up to be crucified?

Mark 14:37
37 And He cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
KJV

He was actually teaching us, right there, about the last days, the "one hour" at the end of this world that is about the coming great tribulation. It is the 11th hour in the parable of the ten virgins. It is the last hour of the laborers in the field that only worked 'one hour', but got paid the same as those who worked all day. It is the same 'one hour' that the ten kings will reign with the beast.

So yes, that parable is definitely about the five foolish virgins as deceived brethren that do not have the correct Biblical view about the end that Jesus and His Apostles gave us. Thus they are not prepared to 'WATCH' the events leading up to His coming.

They don't even know those events to be watching He gave in His Word. And He commanded us to 'watch'. They are what Paul called the "times and the seasons" that he said the Thessalonians had no need for him to tell them, for they already knew them, and how that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and a "sudden destruction" upon those when they say, "Peace and safety". That right there in 1 Thess.5 was 2 Main Signs of the end Apostle Paul gave from the OT prophets! Lord Jesus taught them too.

Well, so does Jesus come "as a thief" like He pointed to in His Olivet discourse and in Revelation 16:15.

Timtofly · Nov 30, 2020

FredVB said:
How do you get that the foolish virgins in the parable Jesus gave is referring to believers, even any of them? These are referring to people not prepared with the Holy Spirit in them. Not having just the right eschatological view is not the issue there, with just understanding at least that Jesus really will return, he said so. But the rapture support from many is often assuming there is nothing important in the world to address as that rapture will take believers out next, so they won't change anything at all for responsible living. That is very wrong, the Bible speaks for all of us living responsibly, we should know to do that anyway, a coming rapture is not for us to dismiss any of that, and is just wrong to assume it will be the next thing and nothing important for us to address would come ahead of that. Believers suffered all sorts of things through history, they still do in many places, even if not right where you are. The only basis for believers being taken out which God does show in revelation is the coming judgment on those in the world for unrepented wickedness and destructiveness here, that the redeemed with their repentance are not subject to in Christ who bore it all for them. Mystery Babylon will fall, people of God must not simply remain with it, I believe it can come before the rapture of believers from this world, it will not be God's judgment yet coming, when it is resulting from the process of what is happening all along, the signs show it. The one who is Antichrist will come to power in this with the last attempt for civilization with what remains, with the deception on people to follow him for that, without God.

Were not all 10 virgins to be ready for the same event? How did all 10 know to be ready?

BABerean2 · Dec 1, 2020

Davy said:
No, the five foolish virgins are shown they had 'some' of the OIL (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps. When it came time when they really needed it, to trim up the flame of their lamps, their OIL ran out.

That makes the five foolish virgins representative of those who are believers, but fall away in the last hour (just before midnight, represented by the Bridegroom's coming).

Did you recognize what Jesus said to His disciples that fell asleep just before He was delivered up to be crucified?

Mark 14:37
37 And He cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
KJV

He was actually teaching us, right there, about the last days, the "one hour" at the end of this world that is about the coming great tribulation. It is the 11th hour in the parable of the ten virgins. It is the last hour of the laborers in the field that only worked 'one hour', but got paid the same as those who worked all day. It is the same 'one hour' that the ten kings will reign with the beast.

So yes, that parable is definitely about the five foolish virgins as deceived brethren that do not have the correct Biblical view about the end that Jesus and His Apostles gave us. Thus they are not prepared to 'WATCH' the events leading up to His coming.

They don't even know those events to be watching He gave in His Word. And He commanded us to 'watch'. They are what Paul called the "times and the seasons" that he said the Thessalonians had no need for him to tell them, for they already knew them, and how that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and a "sudden destruction" upon those when they say, "Peace and safety". That right there in 1 Thess.5 was 2 Main Signs of the end Apostle Paul gave from the OT prophets! Lord Jesus taught them too.

Well, so does Jesus come "as a thief" like He pointed to in His Olivet discourse and in Revelation 16:15.

The true believers are found below and will not fall away.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.

FredVB · Dec 4, 2020

Davy said:
No, the five foolish virgins are shown they had 'some' of the OIL (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps. When it came time when they really needed it, to trim up the flame of their lamps, their OIL ran out.

They are among believers and counted as believers, but as they are not real as such, they were never saved, and are left behind.

Davy · Dec 4, 2020

FredVB said:
They are among believers and counted as believers, but as they are not real as such, they were never saved, and are left behind.

No, they are believers, but they are deceived at the end of this world because they heeded men's false leaven doctrines instead of getting the spare vessel of The Oil.

This is why the five wise virgins are called "wise", and the other five are "foolish". So what's the wise and foolish idea about?

When the Oil ran out of the lamps of the five foolish virgins, they asked the wise ones to give of their Oil. The wise virgins said no, but go to those who SELL, and BUY The Oil.

What's the problem with thinking to SELL and BUY The Holy Spirit? Do you remember Simon the sorcerer that believed, and when he saw The Holy Spirit being given by the Apostles through the laying on of hands, Simon offered them money? (Acts 8:18).

How does that translate to today? It's about the type Churches today that trick its members into thinking that giving them money will guarantee them a place in Christ's Salvation. Some think to 'buy' their way into Heaven, and some beth-avens (houses of vanity) take advantage of that, getting rich off it. So those believers don't really get down to disciplined study in God's Word, asking Him for understanding, those type let their preachers tell them what to believe, and just put their money in the plate, and go home about their own business. Pew potatoes is what some folks call them.

BABerean2 · Dec 4, 2020

Davy said:
No, they are believers, but they are deceived at the end of this world because they heeded men's false leaven doctrines instead of getting the spare vessel of The Oil.

This is why the five wise virgins are called "wise", and the other five are "foolish". So what's the wise and foolish idea about?

When the Oil ran out of the lamps of the five foolish virgins, they asked the wise ones to give of their Oil. The wise virgins said no, but go to those who SELL, and BUY The Oil.

What's the problem with thinking to SELL and BUY The Holy Spirit? Do you remember Simon the sorcerer that believed, and when he saw The Holy Spirit being given by the Apostles through the laying on of hands, Simon offered them money? (Acts 8:18).

How does that translate to today? It's about the type Churches today that trick its members into thinking that giving them money will guarantee them a place in Christ's Salvation. Some think to 'buy' their way into Heaven, and some beth-avens (houses of vanity) take advantage of that, getting rich off it. So those believers don't really get down to disciplined study in God's Word, asking Him for understanding, those type let their preachers tell them what to believe, and just put their money in the plate, and go home about their own business. Pew potatoes is what some folks call them.

I find the Holy Spirit being given to New Covenant believers in Luke 3:16, and John 14:26, and Acts of the Apostles 11:15-16, and Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27.

Based on Romans 8:9, nobody can be a true believer without the Holy Spirit.

Can you clearly show where it is taken away after it is given?

.

Freedm · Dec 5, 2020

Davy said:
No, the five foolish virgins are shown they had 'some' of the OIL (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps. When it came time when they really needed it, to trim up the flame of their lamps, their OIL ran out.

That makes the five foolish virgins representative of those who are believers...

Only if you can prove that the oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit.

FredVB · Dec 8, 2020

Davy said:
No, they are believers, but they are deceived at the end of this world because they heeded men's false leaven doctrines instead of getting the spare vessel of The Oil.

This is why the five wise virgins are called "wise", and the other five are "foolish". So what's the wise and foolish idea about?

It is your own perspective and reasoning that the elect can be lost and not delivered from this world when Yahweh would take the believers out to be with their God when the judgment will come, as if their salvation would be lost, because they hear and believe some false teachings. But there is not consistency with that. Everyone believes something that is false. I don't count myself an exception, and am open to learning things I missed, from anything reliable for that, and certainly things in the Bible. How can you know everyone believes some false things? Find anyone who does agree on everything with you. There are no persons you can find who agree on everything without exception. Would all people be left behind, but one person? No, and not even one person would have everything right. The works of faith are important, which show us that there is the salvation in Christ with the faith having relationship through Christ. There are church-goers who really don't change how they live the rest of the time when they return from church, certainly. But believers are not losing faith, or salvation, as they are sealed, and they still learn and will change, as God is still involved. Others would slip away, sometime, sooner or later.

There is nothing of Bible passages showing nothing is to develop now before believers are caught up to be with their Lord. There are passages showing us responsibilities to answer to while we are here, and those are to continue, whatever we think about our not having to deal with consequences from what we choose, and do, while others still would deal with the consequences. We would not be delivered from that. We who are believers will be delivered from the time of judgment on those in the world who are unrepentant in their rebellious wickedness and destructiveness. God definitely warned of that.

It is foolish to dismiss God's will. The fool will live like there is no God.

Davy · Dec 9, 2020

FredVB said:
It is your own perspective and reasoning that the elect can be lost and not delivered from this world when Yahweh would take the believers out to be with their God when the judgment will come, as if their salvation would be lost, because they hear and believe some false teachings. But there is not consistency with that. Everyone believes something that is false. I don't count myself an exception, and am open to learning things I missed, from anything reliable for that, and certainly things in the Bible. How can you know everyone believes some false things? Find anyone who does agree on everything with you. There are no persons you can find who agree on everything without exception. Would all people be left behind, but one person? No, and not even one person would have everything right. The works of faith are important, which show us that there is the salvation in Christ with the faith having relationship through Christ. There are church-goers who really don't change how they live the rest of the time when they return from church, certainly. But believers are not losing faith, or salvation, as they are sealed, and they still learn and will change, as God is still involved. Others would slip away, sometime, sooner or later.

There is nothing of Bible passages showing nothing is to develop now before believers are caught up to be with their Lord. There are passages showing us responsibilities to answer to while we are here, and those are to continue, whatever we think about our not having to deal with consequences from what we choose, and do, while others still would deal with the consequences. We would not be delivered from that. We who are believers will be delivered from the time of judgment on those in the world who are unrepentant in their rebellious wickedness and destructiveness. God definitely warned of that.

It is foolish to dismiss God's will. The fool will live like there is no God.

All I can say to that then is, you must believe in Fairy Tales, because Lord Jesus was very, very clear that not all of those who will say to Him, "Lord, lord..." on that day of His return will enter into His Kingdom.

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

If you say that to Lord Jesus when He comes, and He shuns you because of listening to men's doctrines instead of Him, then maybe you can get those men you heeded to intercede for you??

JulieB67 · Dec 9, 2020

FredVB said:
There is nothing of Bible passages showing nothing is to develop now before believers are caught up to be with their Lord.

You need to reread Matthew 24 as well as Paul's teachings in both of the Thessalonians. Paul says our gathering back to him will "not happen" until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ and him both give very strict warnings to not be deceived on this very subject. The Thessalonians were confused by his first letter so he writes a second one and nails down what "must" happen.

And remember these were letters, not books with chapters, the subject never changes from 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 into 5 where he calls the event of chapter 4 -The day of the Lord.

The Rapture theory is true?

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