Grace and Works broken down

RickReads

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I never said that did I? All I said is that I don’t highly value the writings of Paul.

You have said it and you have stated to the effect that you believe Paul is a false teacher who led the church into apostasy.

Up till now I have respected your honesty. Don`t throw that away now.
 
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Devin Hammond

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You have said it and you have stated to the effect that you believe Paul is a false teacher who led the church into apostasy.

Up till now I have respected your honesty. Don`t throw that away now.

Did I say that I don’t believe the writings of John, Peter, and James were inspired? I think Paul’s letters were probably inspired and influenced by the Holy Spirit but I don’t consider them inerrant. I do believe that Paul led the early church astray.
 
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RickReads

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Did I say that I don’t believe the writings of John, Peter, and James were inspired? I think Paul’s letters were probably inspired and influenced by the Holy Spirit but I don’t consider them inerrant. I do believe that Paul led the early church astray.

Fine. You believe in 8 of the books.

Peter said Pauls epistles are Scripture but nevermind that.
 
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RickReads

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Then why do Paul’s teachings contradict the words of Christ? Matthew 5:19

They don`t, but it`s a journey to reach that understanding. Israel failed to convert, this brought about a change to the program. If God didn`t create a path of salvation apart from joining the nation of Israel then He probably would`ve destroyed the world.
 
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Devin Hammond

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They don`t, but it`s a journey to reach that understanding. Israel failed to convert, this brought about a change to the program. If God didn`t create a path of salvation apart from joining the nation of Israel then He probably would`ve destroyed the world.

Jesus didn’t say anything about joining the nation Israel he was talking about keeping the commandments.
 
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RickReads

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Jesus didn’t say anything about joining the nation Israel he was talking about keeping the commandments.

That's because Jesus was talking to Jews. To convert to Jesus' original doctrine you would need to become a proselyte.
 
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Devin Hammond

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That's because Jesus was talking to Jews. To convert to Jesus' original doctrine you would need to become a proselyte.

So only Jews are required to keep God’s commands?

Matt.19
  1. [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John.14
  1. [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
  2. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John.15
  1. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Cor.7
  1. [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1John.2
  1. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if wekeep his commandments.
  2. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
  3. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John.3
  1. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
  2. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John.5
  1. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  2. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev.12
  1. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, whichkeep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14
  1. [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they thatkeep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
 
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RickReads

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So only Jews are required to keep God’s commands?

Matt.19
  1. [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John.14
  1. [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
  2. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John.15
  1. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Cor.7
  1. [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1John.2
  1. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if wekeep his commandments.
  2. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
  3. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John.3
  1. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
  2. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John.5
  1. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  2. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev.12
  1. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, whichkeep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev.14
  1. [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they thatkeep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"

If you really want to obey Jesus then you have to listen to the modern leaders of Judaism. Check with the Messianic JewGentiles around here. They`ll tell you.
 
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Devin Hammond

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"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"

If you really want to obey Jesus then you have to listen to the modern leaders of Judaism. Check with the Messianic JewGentiles around here. They`ll tell you.

I am a Messianic Jew.
 
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fhansen

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Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So we can break down this passage into 10 points that show how faith, grace and works can be in harmony with one another in the Salvation process.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

PS- I sometimes find that breaking down a passage point by point helps me to see the bigger picture better than if I'm just reading it as one complete sentence.

hope this helps !!!
That, um, works for me! We could follow it up with:
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.“ Rom 2:12-13

All a work of God‘s under the New Covenant. No place for boasting.
 
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chad kincham

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Salvation has nothing to do with us, God choses who He saves. We are all born dead in our sin and a dead person can never have have faith unless God gives it to him.

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible, because no one can say Jesus is Lord, except the Holy Spirit draws them.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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That, um, works for me. We could follow it up with:
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.“ Rom 2:12-13

All a work of God‘s under the New Covenant. No place for boasting.
And we can ad to that Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 13.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible, because no one can say Jesus is Lord, except the Holy Spirit draws them.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
Mans inability to come to God apart from Him

John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Romans 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Ephesians 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

Ephesians 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Ephesians 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Philippians 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

2 Timothy 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


The Lord saves us and keeps us saved by His Grace

Faith comes by Gods grace as per:

Ephesians 2:8. Faith alone means apart from works , not grace. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God


Philippians 1:29- "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."


John 1:13- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


Salvation is of the Lord. Its all His doing by His grace, even being granted by God the ability to believe. Our human decision to come to Christ comes from God, not by human decision but born of God.


God saves us and keeps us saved.


Jude 1:24-25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.NLT

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father

Ephesians 2:4:5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

God Grants Repentance

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Salvation is of, by and through God from beginning to end.

As the Scriptures declare: Salvation is of the Lord !

hope this helps !!!
 
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